Amare enjoying his fame

[elindholm]

but you assume Amare will be dead set on going to LA at the beginning of this season and then take off as soon as he gets the chance.

You can't possibly be talking to me. How did you get the idea that I'm assuming that?

I'm not assuming Sarver has the powers of God, I just think the decision has more to do with what Sarver does than you do.

Just for the record, what did Orlando's ownership do wrong in order to lose O'Neal? What did Detroit do wrong to lose Hill?

If we have a winning contending team, we pay him, and afford him whatever else he deems necessary for him to remain in Phoenix, he will stay.

Why are you so sure? I agree that he would probably stay, but how can you be comfortable making a guarantee?

 

[AZZenny]

I worry a smidge - you have to - Amare has said repeatedly how much he loves Phoenix - city, fans, team - but I wonder if some of that was his initial reaction to being given stability, security, patience, interested mentors, etc. for the very first time in his then very-young life. That must in some ways have felt like such a huge relief to just have the instability and blatant manipulations stop for a bit.

Move ahead a couple years, and security and stability gets a bit boring. He doesn't need the older mentors, he needs his posse. Stability is taken for granted, perhaps. Phoenix is a nice city if you like golf, or have a family, but it's still pretty much a laid-back, white-bread city in terms of night life and excitement. Heck, after the 2001WS it was still called a 'cow-town' and 'small-town mentality' in national media. People here generally try to be decent, which I think slightly older athletes and stars really do appreciate, but Amare?

He's a hot young stud, understands his potential, and you don't think he has everyone in the world out there sucking up to him, pumping his ego, and trying to turn his head? That would be hard for any early-twenties phenom to ignore or to put in perspective, and he has neither the kind of family, nor a super-protective agent, to provide any balance.

The Suns need to find a way for him not to take THEM for granted. I have no idea how to do that, but this is a situation where familiarity and comfort could breed a degree of boredom and contempt. They need to challenge him in some way, not give him everything he might ever want before he even asks. Make him grow - I think that is something he actually will appreciate.

 

[Kolo]

If we have a winning contending team, we pay him, and afford him whatever else he deems necessary for him to remain in Phoenix, he will stay.

And like I said, you could insert "Orlando" for "we" and "Shaq" for "he," and you're describing 1994. I hope like hell he stays, and I wish I could agree with you, but it's simply not a given no matter how much you wish it is.

 

[Yuma]

I worry a smidge - you have to - Amare has said repeatedly how much he loves Phoenix - city, fans, team - but I wonder if some of that was his initial reaction to being given stability, security, patience, interested mentors, etc. for the very first time in his then very-young life. That must in some ways have felt like such a huge relief to just have the instability and blatant manipulations stop for a bit.

Move ahead a couple years, and security and stability gets a bit boring. He doesn't need the older mentors, he needs his posse. Stability is taken for granted, perhaps. Phoenix is a nice city if you like golf, or have a family, but it's still pretty much a laid-back, white-bread city in terms of night life and excitement. Heck, after the 2001WS it was still called a 'cow-town' and 'small-town mentality' in national media. People here generally try to be decent, which I think slightly older athletes and stars really do appreciate, but Amare?

He's a hot young stud, understands his potential, and you don't think he has everyone in the world out there sucking up to him, pumping his ego, and trying to turn his head? That would be hard for any early-twenties phenom to ignore or to put in perspective, and he has neither the kind of family, nor a super-protective agent, to provide any balance.

The Suns need to find a way for him not to take THEM for granted. I have no idea how to do that, but this is a situation where familiarity and comfort could breed a degree of boredom and contempt. They need to challenge him in some way, not give him everything he might ever want before he even asks. Make him grow - I think that is something he actually will appreciate.

I agree Phoenix isn't as "Hot" as LA in style and action. However, it's a much more attractive city than LA. To me the difference is we have less Stars here to hang out with, and less HOTTIES! Everywhere you go in LA there are HOT women. I remember what it was like to be in my early twenties. I would travel to cities just because of the "action" there. Phoenix needs to import a ton of SoCal gals in!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

And like I said, you could insert "Orlando" for "we" and "Shaq" for "he," and you're describing 1994. I hope like hell he stays, and I wish I could agree with you, but it's simply not a given no matter how much you wish it is.

Umm..... the reason i posted this article is because I am usually the pessimist on this subject and I am very touchy about Amares impending free agency until it finally gets done. Its been the others who have been very logical in saying he will stay with the Suns. Most signs right now point to staying in Phoenix, but as all my previous posts in this thread prove (you've been reading them, right? ), I am worried about what happens in the time before his free agaency. I dont think its a given at all............

 

[George O'Brien]

The one factor that is not being mentioned here is just how hard it is for the Lakers to be able to afford Amare. Yes, Amare might take a cut in pay to play in a city where endorsements are really really big, but there are some problems for LA if it tries to go after him.

If Amare signs a five year contract with an out after the third year (2008 ), it would look like this:

2006 $11.70
2007 $12.87
2008 $14.04
2009 $15.21
2010 $16.38
--------------------
Total $70.20

Going into the summer of 2008, according to Hoopshype, the Lakers will have the following contracts:

Bryant $21.26 million
Odom $14.56million
Bynum $2.77 million (team option)
Vujacic $2.61 million (RFA)
------------------
Total $41.2 million

It's not impossible, but it would be extremely hard for the Lakers to come close to paying Amare what he WAS making, much less the max amount he could get by re-signing with the Suns.

Can the Lakers set up every contract to expire in 2008 and still get enough quality players to be competative? Would Amare or anyone else want to go to the Lakers if they aren't competitive? In 2008 Kobe will be 30 and Odom at 29 will be on the last year of his contract.

IMHO, it is simply not practical for the Lakers to spend 3 years trying to clear enough cap space on the CHANCE that they could sign Amare.

 

[elindholm]

IMHO, it is simply not practical for the Lakers to spend 3 years trying to clear enough cap space on the CHANCE that they could sign Amare.

I agree, but there are reports that that's exactly what they're doing. I think it's a stupid strategy, but I also thought it was a stupid strategy for the Cavaliers to tank in order to have a 25% chance of winning the LeBron James lottery, and look what happened.

It's not impossible, but it would be extremely hard for the Lakers to come close to paying Amare what he WAS making, much less the max amount he could get by re-signing with the Suns.

The amounts will be about the same in the first year of the deal. They can clear the space if they really want to. Worst-case scenario, they let Vujacic go.

Also, if Stoudemire's opt-out if after the third year of his extension, that's the summer of 2009, not 2008. (He's on his rookie deal for 2005-06 no matter what.) That buys the Lakers a little more time.

I'm not worried about it, but at this point we have to acknowledge that it's possible.

 

[devilalum]

IMHO, it is simply not practical for the Lakers to spend 3 years trying to clear enough cap space on the CHANCE that they could sign Amare.

I agree, but there are reports that that's exactly what they're doing. I think it's a stupid strategy, but I also thought it was a stupid strategy for the Cavaliers to tank in order to have a 25% chance of winning the LeBron James lottery, and look what happened.

It's not impossible, but it would be extremely hard for the Lakers to come close to paying Amare what he WAS making, much less the max amount he could get by re-signing with the Suns.

The amounts will be about the same in the first year of the deal. They can clear the space if they really want to. Worst-case scenario, they let Vujacic go.

Also, if Stoudemire's opt-out if after the third year of his extension, that's the summer of 2009, not 2008. (He's on his rookie deal for 2005-06 no matter what.) That buys the Lakers a little more time.

I'm not worried about it, but at this point we have to acknowledge that it's possible.

There's no reason why Amare's agent can't tell the Lakers to clear cap space because Amare will come there if you do so. Of course if this happened there is no reason why Amare can't change his mind at the last second and screw the Lakers over.

When is the last date Amare can sign an extention? After some date don't the Suns have to wait until next off season?

If Amare tells the Suns that he will not resign with the team they would have to try and trade him either before the trade deadline this year (when he could have more trade value) or try and do a sign and trade next summer. If Amare just waits and signs a one year tender next summer the Suns will get nothing.

 

[elindholm]

If Amare just waits and signs a one year tender next summer the Suns will get nothing.

It's extraordinarily unlikely that Stoudemire would take that risk. A serious injury could cost him close to $100 million.

The only two notable players who have taken the one-year escape contract are Michael Olowokandi and Stromile Swift. In both cases, they faced the problem that there just wasn't much demand for their services. They didn't have huge offers to turn down, so the gamble of playing one more year wasn't enormous. Even so, it didn't pay off: both turned down decent extensions from their original clubs, only to settle for a mid-range deal in their big UFA summer.

The demand for Stoudemire will be sky-high, so that scenario won't be played out. The Suns will automatically match any contract he gets, and it won't matter if he says he wants to leave. If he starts a game of chicken, threatening to take the escape contract, he'll be the one to blink first. It's just too much money.

If you want to panic about something -- and clearly you do -- panic about the summer of 2009. Until then, Stoudemire is a Sun.

 

[sunsfn]

How about putting something to rest about the JJ deal!!

It is Sarvers fault that JJ is not now a sun! JJ wanted 50 mil spread over 6 years instead of the offer of 45 mil.
JC & BC and others told Sarver to do it! He told JJ that if he had a good year he would be rich the next year!
This is after he signed Q & Nash to contracts.

It apparently P.... JJ off and then he started talking about his options of free agency.

Then he offers JJ 70 mil for 5 years a few days after the bucks signed Redd to a 90 mil contract. Mor P.... off. At that point JJ was not coming back!

Sarver thought he could do the signing the way he wanted and JJ would sign later. It is obvious he was taken back that JJ wanted out after that. This would not have happened to Jerry Colangelo......!!

-----------------
Now, we have Amare and his pending contract.
I am not sure why he has not been signed, but Sarver should have had him signed already. Sarver should have called Amare on the first day and had a deal ready to sign immediately. He did not and now the talks start about other options. At this point "I think" Amare is going to sign and be here for the next 3 years, and hopefully longer. There is not way any of you can say something like,
"I guarantee you Amare will be here and sign a contract" That happened with JJ.
The other thing, in three years if Amare says he wants out, the suns will trade him to wherever he wants to go. Players can cause a terrible time to their teams if they do not want to play for them, and eventually the teams do what the players want. Amare will just demand a trade sometime and it will happen.

By the way, if the Lakers want to sign or trade for Amare in 3-4 years I guarantee you they will clear the space somehow, even if it does not look like they can.

-

 

[elindholm]

We've been over this a hundred times.

It was highly debatable whether Johnson was worth his asking price last summer. That is why Sarver did not give it to him.

No one doubts that Stoudemire, on the other hand, is worthy of a max contract. The only reason he hasn't already signed is that they are haggling over opt-outs, not that Sarver is squeamish about shelling out the cash.

The situations are completely different. Their only similarity is their ability to inspire paranoia among certain posters on this board.

 

[sunsfn]

We've been over this a hundred times.

It was highly debatable whether Johnson was worth his asking price last summer. That is why Sarver did not give it to him.
--------------------------------------
*****Right, we have been over this a thousand times and you do not get it!

The fact of the matter is Sarver was new to the suns and the NBA and would not listen to others who knew what was going on! This is why Sarver is to blame! You can defend him all you want, but it does not change what happened! Jerry Colangelo and others knew the worth of JJ and tried to convince Sarver but could not.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

No one doubts that Stoudemire, on the other hand, is worthy of a max contract. The only reason he hasn't already signed is that they are haggling over opt-outs, not that Sarver is squeamish about shelling out the cash.

The situations are completely different. Their only similarity is their ability to inspire paranoia among certain posters on this board.

Sarver better quit haggling with Amare over anything to do with his contract period! The more he haggles the worst the association with Amare gets. The 3 year option is not that uncommon, give it to him and get the deal done!

Their situations are different, but the common denominator is Sarver and he does not know what the H..... he is doing!

The paranoia among certain posters on this board is well founded when it comes to the dealings of Sarver.
Sarver thinks he is in a business situation and that he can run the suns that way. He does not realize that he is dealing with basketball athletes who make millions of dollars playing a game, and they are somewhat different then the bankers and board room people he deals with on a daily basis, where the bottom line is what their return on their investment, is what really matters.

The other thing that has been created is the thoughts of certain posters of this board, that Sarver actually knows what he is doing!


-

 

[Chaplin]

Sarver better quit haggling with Amare over anything to do with his cantract period! The more he haggles the worst the association with Amare gets. The 3 year option is not that uncommon, give it to him and get the deal done!

Their situations are different, but the common denominator is Sarver and he does not know what the H..... he is doing!

The paranoia among certain posters on this board is well founded when it comes to the dealings of Sarver.
Sarver thinks he is in a business situation and that he can run the suns that way. He does not realize that he is dealing with basketball athletes who make millions of dollars playing a game, and they are somewhat different then the bankers and board room people he deals with on a daily basis, where the bottom line is what their return on their investment, is what really matters.

The other thing that has been created is the thoughts of certain posters of this board, that Sarver actually knows what he is doing!


-

sunsfn, you're coming across as some 12-year-old who's been grounded for hitting his sister. We understand you blame Sarver, but you are so close-minded, you won't even entertain the thought that Eric has a definite point.

 

[elindholm]

The 3 year option is not that uncommon, give it to him and get the deal done!

I agree, and I think that's what will happen fairly soon.

Their situations are different, but the common denominator is Sarver and he does not know what the H..... he is doing!

Why don't you and Arizona's Finest get together and make up a list of everything that's Sarver's fault. You'll probably get a real kick out of it.

Hindsight is 20/20. It wasn't my money, but I supported the decision to wait on Johnson, and I certainly support the decision to trade him once he said he wanted to leave. Yes, some people wanted to extend him "at any price" last summer, and it turns out those people would have been right. Those are the breaks.

Sarver thinks he is in a business situation and that he can run the suns that way.

Every time someone makes this point and I ask for specific examples, I get silence.

So far we have two questionable financial moves: Refusing to pay Johnson his asking price last summer, and trading the rights to Whats-his-name Gortat. On the first one, there were sound basketball reasons for the decision, even if it proved to be (probably) the wrong one. On the second one, who really cares?

What else has Sarver done that makes him look like a penny-pinching moron? Can you come up with a concrete example, even though no one else has?

He does not realize that he is dealing with basketball athletes who make millions of dollars playing a game

Do you actually think he doesn't realize that? What, according to you, does he think instead? That the money he pays to the players winds up lining the pockets of the Tooth Fairy, and the players don't notice?

The other thing that has been created is the thoughts of certain posters of this board, that Sarver actually knows what he is doing!

As I've written at least 75 times, I think Sarver is figuring it out as he goes along. But his decisions don't seem to be influenced by a reluctance to spend money. There just isn't any evidence for that.

 

[sunsfn]

sunsfn, you're coming across as some 12-year-old who's been grounded for hitting his sister. We understand you blame Sarver, but you are so close-minded, you won't even entertain the thought that Eric has a definite point.

Chaplin, why do you even come here if that is all you have to say. Just knock someone and not add anything to the discussion.

Actually I have been thinking that elindholm is being close minded because he keeps saying the same thing over and over to anyone that suggests otherwise.

How about going back to the purple ???? discussion site!
Oh wait, is that list not working anymore?


-

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin, why do you even come here if that is all you have to say. Just knock someone and not add anything to the discussion.

Actually I have been thinking that elindholm is being close minded because he keeps saying the same thing over and over to anyone that suggests otherwise.

How about going back to the purple ???? discussion site!
Oh wait, is that list not working anymore?


-

Are you kidding me? You've just proven my point! Eric has a legitimate, and IMO, sensible point, and you dismiss it because you think Sarver doesn't know anything about running an NBA franchise! And outside of not signing JJ to an underserved huge extension last summer, you have no other incident to back up your arguement!

Funny you don't respond to Eric, maybe that's because he's right?

 

[elindholm]

Actually I have been thinking that elindholm is being close minded because he keeps saying the same thing over and over to anyone that suggests otherwise.

LOL, good one. Actually thinking about the evidence and expecting conclusions to follow logically is "close-minded." I wish I could say that I had no idea where you got that concept from, but unfortunately I know all too well.

Once again, I ask for concrete examples and get deafening silence. Yes, I will keep making this point.

 

[sunsfn]

Their situations are different, but the common denominator is Sarver and he does not know what the H..... he is doing!

Why don't you and Arizona's Finest get together and make up a list of everything that's Sarver's fault. You'll probably get a real kick out of it.

****
elindholm, it seems that you can not stand to have someone say something about Sarver without jumping on the bandwagon on his behalf.
****************

Hindsight is 20/20. It wasn't my money, but I supported the decision to wait on Johnson, and I certainly support the decision to trade him once he said he wanted to leave. Yes, some people wanted to extend him "at any price" last summer, and it turns out those people would have been right. Those are the breaks.
*******
There were people on this board that wanted JJ to get signed for the 50 mil because they thought he was worth it, and I was one of those people.
They were right and that seems to bother you because you keep bringing it up.
*******************

Sarver thinks he is in a business situation and that he can run the suns that way.

Every time someone makes this point and I ask for specific examples, I get silence.
**********************
Read my post, I talk about the reasons, you obviously just took out of the post what you wanted to take.
*************************************
So far we have two questionable financial moves: Refusing to pay Johnson his asking price last summer, and trading the rights to Whats-his-name Gortat. On the first one, there were sound basketball reasons for the decision, even if it proved to be (probably) the wrong one. On the second one, who really cares?
*******
I am not even concerned about his (what you call 2nd questionable move)
this was about the JJ move only and I think that that is a big enough gaff that he let everyone know that he does not know what he is going.
I keep saying this over and over and not sure you read it or want to acknowledge it. Jerry Colangelo and others tried to get Sarver to sign JJ last year, and he refused.
*******************************
What else has Sarver done that makes him look like a penny-pinching moron? Can you come up with a concrete example, even though no one else has?
*************
Read above, plus the scouts not going to games but made to watch them on tv to scout players, carrying 12 players all year, cutting staff in the orginization,,,,(why did that make the papers unless someone realized how dumb it really was)
***********************
He does not realize that he is dealing with basketball athletes who make millions of dollars playing a game

Do you actually think he doesn't realize that? What, according to you, does he think instead? That the money he pays to the players winds up lining the pockets of the Tooth Fairy, and the players don't notice?
*****************
elindholm, I do not think he knew the difference between that and bank board members when he started, JJ has changed that forever. But he still has his ego problem to deal with. I hope I do not have to explain that to you?
**********************************

The other thing that has been created is the thoughts of certain posters of this board, that Sarver actually knows what he is doing!

As I've written at least 75 times, I think Sarver is figuring it out as he goes along. But his decisions don't seem to be influenced by a reluctance to spend money. There just isn't any evidence for that.
****************
are you kidding here, you do not think the JJ deal had to do about money? especially after JC tried to convince him to sign JJ.

--

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The 3 year option is not that uncommon, give it to him and get the deal done!

Actually it is very uncommon. The only player that I can think of to have it in the last 5 years was Tim Duncan.

It is very common to have a 5 year option on a 7 year deal, as well as the 6 year option.



The 3 year option only makes sense for the very very best players in the league, and it only makes sense after their rookie deal. It allows the player to get a bigger raise in 3 years while not sacrificing long term security. No team will allow a player to hold all the cards like that unless they are a top 4-5 talent, which Amare will be.

Sarver has done everything he could to sign Amare this summer. They traded Q to get a big body that he requested so he could play PF. They got Steve Nash last summer to run the pick and roll with him. If Amare really thought Joe was a big deal Sarver would have matched. He was willing to pay the price (although it would have meant represucussions down the road), we can all assume that Amare signed off on the trade.

The contract is on the table, the demands have been met. If Amare doesn't sign it is because of him, it is that simple.

 

[sunsfn]

Are you kidding me? You've just proven my point! Eric has a legitimate, and IMO, sensible point, and you dismiss it because you think Sarver doesn't know anything about running an NBA franchise! And outside of not signing JJ to an underserved huge extension last summer, you have no other incident to back up your arguement!

Funny you don't respond to Eric, maybe that's because he's right?

Read my post about the other things that Sarver has done please.

I think elindholm has a legitimate point, but I and others also have a legitimate point about Sarver not knowing what he is doing.
JJ is a perfect example and it was a major happening. In fact it will effect this franchise for years.

I have been responding to elindholm until I had to pause to argue with you.

Please go away!!

-

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

About the front office moves, from what I can tell this next season will be a lot better. The Suns are starting to spend money in other areas right now. While they are not a top spending team it appears they will be back to middle of the road.

Sunsfn, I was one of the biggest proponets of signing JJ last summer. You cannot however make a logical arguement that Sarver completely blew it on hand. It was a very very risky move that several of us would have made, but several wouldn't. It was very far from clear cut, and I can live with his decision.

Jerry would have signed Joe last summer. Of course Jerry rarely spent his own money and ran this franchise into financial hell to the point where it was impossible to field a competitor. Jerry knows basketball very very well, however he had some problems with the contract game.

 

[Chaplin]

It seems like the biggest thing that you are holding onto, sunsfn, is that the Colangelo's seemingly begged Sarver to extend JJ last summer and he didn't. If they were that convinced, they would have been able to convince Sarver to do it. To think otherwise is naive.

 

[sunsfn]

Actually it is very uncommon. The only player that I can think of to have it in the last 5 years was Tim Duncan.

It is very common to have a 5 year option on a 7 year deal, as well as the 6 year option.



The 3 year option only makes sense for the very very best players in the league, and it only makes sense after their rookie deal. It allows the player to get a bigger raise in 3 years while not sacrificing long term security. No team will allow a player to hold all the cards like that unless they are a top 4-5 talent, which Amare will be.

Sarver has done everything he could to sign Amare this summer. They traded Q to get a big body that he requested so he could play PF. They got Steve Nash last summer to run the pick and roll with him. If Amare really thought Joe was a big deal Sarver would have matched. He was willing to pay the price (although it would have meant represucussions down the road), we can all assume that Amare signed off on the trade.

The contract is on the table, the demands have been met. If Amare doesn't sign it is because of him, it is that simple.

I was sure that shaq had this done also?

Since you seem to know the offer is on the table why has Amare not signed it?

-

 

[Chaplin]

Read my post about the other things that Sarver has done please.

I think elindholm has a legitimate point, but I and others also have a legitimate point about Sarver not knowing what he is doing.
JJ is a perfect example and it was a major happening. In fact it will effect this franchise for years.

I have been responding to elindholm until I had to pause to argue with you.

Please go away!!

-

Yeah right. You wouldn't have to "pause" if you knew what you were talking about, which you plainly do not.

I, like Eric, ALSO supported not signing JJ to a large extension last summer. The guy had always been woefully inconsistent in everything he did--remember how he would always have good games away from AWA, but disappeared at home? These are facts.

Should Sarver have extended JJ? Sure, he should have, and he probably believes that himself. But nobody, not even you, sunsfn, knew that JJ would turn into the player he is now (thanks to Steve Nash).

 

[Chaplin]

About the front office moves, from what I can tell this next season will be a lot better. The Suns are starting to spend money in other areas right now. While they are not a top spending team it appears they will be back to middle of the road.

Sunsfn, I was one of the biggest proponets of signing JJ last summer. You cannot however make a logical arguement that Sarver completely blew it on hand. It was a very very risky move that several of us would have made, but several wouldn't. It was very far from clear cut, and I can live with his decision.

Jerry would have signed Joe last summer. Of course Jerry rarely spent his own money and ran this franchise into financial hell to the point where it was impossible to field a competitor. Jerry knows basketball very very well, however he had some problems with the contract game.

Most people last summer thought that Sarver's biggest mistake was giving Steve Nash as much money he did, not that he didn't extend Joe Johnson.