Amare enjoying his fame

[thegrahamcrackr]

I was sure that shaq had this done also?

Since you seem to know the offer is on the table why has Amare not signed it?

-

Shaq's was a 6 year out clause (it was part of his old contract after an extension IIRC). He used it this summer to resign his new deal. It is a little hard to follow his deal because like Garnett his deal was from 2 CBAs ago. They kept doing extensions on the deal so they could remain under the old terms. That is why I said deals in the past 5 years.


The offer is on the table according to all the reports. Now it may or may not include the 3 year opt out, which is what Amare is probably waiting for.

It could very well be that Amare just isn't worried about it right now. Every interview this summer he says he knows a deal is there and that the Suns are giving him the max. He is just taking his time.

 

[elindholm]

There were people on this board that wanted JJ to get signed for the 50 mil because they thought he was worth it, and I was one of those people. They were right and that seems to bother you because you keep bringing it up.

No, it doesn't bother me. It's a bummer from the standpoint of a Suns fan, but oh well. I had mixed feelings about Johnson from the beginning, and while I can appreciate his talents and wish he were still on the roster, I don't think losing him is the end of the world.

Your ability to follow an argument is questionable. You are the one who keeps bringing up Johnson as proof of Sarver's incompetence. All I do is rebut the point.

Read my post, I talk about the reasons, you obviously just took out of the post what you wanted to take.

What a lame retort. You have time to respond to me point-by-point, yet can't scroll back to recopy something you wrote an hour ago?

To humor you, I just re-read your post. There's still nothing there except complaints about the Johnson situation and nonsense about Sarver not knowing how much his players are paid.

If you have any other real points, spell them out. I'm sure we'd all love to see them.

keep saying this over and over and not sure you read it or want to acknowledge it. Jerry Colangelo and others tried to get Sarver to sign JJ last year, and he refused.

I don't know whether that's true or not. As we've seen time and time again, the Colangelos have a great talent for covering their asses with doublespeak whenever things go wrong. I frankly wouldn't trust either of them to tell me the day of the week.

For the sake of argument, however, let's stipulate that yes, the Colangelos begged Sarver to sign Johnson for his price and Sarver refused. That still doesn't prove anything except that Sarver made a mistake. Was it a mistake born of being cheap, or of guessing wrong about Johnson? Lots of us guessed wrong about Johnson, even those of us with no money involved.

Let me spell it out very clearly: Being wrong about Johnson does not mean Sarver is cheap. It means he was wrong about Johnson.

are you kidding here, you do not think the JJ deal had to do about money?

Oh my god, I think you've got it.

Of course it was "about money" in the sense that that's where the disagreement was. But, as anyone affiliated with the Knicks, Blazers, or Mavericks can tell you, overpaying your players hurts your franchise just as much as losing them does -- and sometimes even more. If you want to be competitive over the long term, you simply can't pay every good player what he wants, even if you have all of the money in the world.

Sarver, surely well versed in the constraints of the salary cap, understands at least this much. You don't.

 

[sunsfn]

Yeah right. You wouldn't have to "pause" if you knew what you were talking about, which you plainly do not.

I, like Eric, ALSO supported not signing JJ to a large extension last summer. The guy had always been woefully inconsistent in everything he did--remember how he would always have good games away from AWA, but disappeared at home? These are facts.

Should Sarver have extended JJ? Sure, he should have, and he probably believes that himself. But nobody, not even you, sunsfn, knew that JJ would turn into the player he is now (thanks to Steve Nash).

There is no doubt that you come on her to just give people a bad time. I was having a discussion with elindholm and we were disagreeing.

So you think elindholm can not defend himself?

The reason I paused is because when I went back to the post elindholm had not answered me yet.

There were lots of people that thought JJ would turn into an excellent player. Just because you did not, you seem to think that no one else could have either.

Like I said earlier, please just go away!!
-

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Most people last summer thought that Sarver's biggest mistake was giving Steve Nash as much money he did, not that he didn't extend Joe Johnson.

Very very true.

The were twice as many critics about signing Q and Steve than there were about not signing Joe.

Like I and many other people keep saying, in hindsight signing Joe would have been a good idea. But even me and you, 2 huge JJ fans, can admit that there were very very legitimate reasons to not do the deal.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Just because you did not, you seem to think that no one else could have either.

Chap was/is a huge JJ supporter. Always has been, even when people were yelling for him to be traded.

 

[Chaplin]

There is no doubt that you come on her to just give people a bad time. I was having a discussion with elindholm and we were disagreeing.

So you think elindholm can not defend himself?

The reason I paused is because when I went back to the post elindholm had not answered me yet.

There were lots of people that thought JJ would turn into an excellent player. Just because you did not, you seem to think that no one else could have either.

Like I said earlier, please just go away!!
-

Why should I go away? Because you tell me too? I think it's funny that on a message board you don't expect other people to chime in on an opinion we all feel strongly about. Maybe you should ask Eric to go out for a beer, that way it will just be the two of you.

And where did I say I didn't think JJ wouldn't turn into an excellent player? I absolutely thought there was a chance, but did I want the Suns to bet a ton of money on it? No, I did not. Now, that turned out to be the wrong opinion, but oh well. I admit that I'm wrong. I loved the player he became. Now, I certainly don't mind he's gone, since now that I think we're a better team and will be a better team in the future.

 

[elindholm]

Maybe you should ask Eric to go out for a beer, that way it will just be the two of you.

I'm busy that evening.

 

[sunsfn]

Chap was/is a huge JJ supporter. Always has been, even when people were yelling for him to be traded.

Another pause to respond to another person........

graham, you left out part of the rsponse,,,,

This is what chaplin said in the post,
---------------------------------------
Should Sarver have extended JJ? Sure, he should have, and he probably believes that himself. But nobody, not even you, sunsfn, knew that JJ would turn into the player he is now (thanks to Steve Nash).
---------------------------------------------------

My response was that there were many people including myself that thought JJ would turn into an all star.

I never said that chaplin did not support him........


-

 

[sunsfn]

Read my post, I talk about the reasons, you obviously just took out of the post what you wanted to take.

What a lame retort.
******************
elindholm,
why do you have to resort to the chaplin effect with comments like that, I am trying to be civil and it may get heated but am not calling you lame etc.
********************************
You have time to respond to me point-by-point, yet can't scroll back to recopy something you wrote an hour ago?
****************
Why is it lame if you do not read the post?
***************

To humor you,
***************
Quit humoring me geeeeez!
***********************
I just re-read your post. There's still nothing there except complaints about the Johnson situation and nonsense about Sarver not knowing how much his players are paid.
If you have any other real points, spell them out. I'm sure we'd all love to see them.

QUOTE]

Here is what I said about how I feel about Sarver.
******************
Sarver thinks he is in a business situation and that he can run the suns that way. He does not realize that he is dealing with basketball athletes who make millions of dollars playing a game, and they are somewhat different then the bankers and board room people he deals with on a daily basis, where the bottom line, is what their return on their investment, is what really matters.
***********************

Sarver has acted like an idiot and has an ego problem. The JJ deal probably made him rethink a lot of things.
The deal with the Spurs and the chicken thing was really bad for an owner to do.
The changes with the scouts etc. will probably be changed sometime.
Sarver will change some of the things he has done and is doing, but that does not change what he has already done.

I think he may a good business man, and I wished had stayed in business and let JC sell the suns to someone else.
I have always thought that JC did what he could to bring a winner here and understand about the money deals.

elindholm, you have stated you do not like the way JC has done things, that is fine if you think that way, but why does it bother you if I think Sarver does not know what he is doing?

-

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah, that post makes a lot of sense...

The Chaplin Effect? That's a good one, I should copyright that!

 

[sunsfn]

Yeah, that post makes a lot of sense...

The Chaplin Effect? That's a good one, I should copyright that!

I think you should start another sports network and name it the chaplin effect.
I am sure you will have as many posters as you did the last time you started one.

 

[Chaplin]

I think you should start another sports network and name it the chaplin effect.
I am sure you will have as many posters as you did the last time you started one.

What a fool.

Grow up.

 

[elindholm]

Here is what I said about how I feel about Sarver.

Sorry if I came across as uncivil. I retract the "lame" comment.

Now:

Sarver thinks he is in a business situation and that he can run the suns that way.

You have no evidence of that, other than simply stating it. I could write, "Sarver is actually an alien from the planet Gwipple," and it would have as much merit.

He does not realize that he is dealing with basketball athletes who make millions of dollars playing a game

I asked you before whether you actually thought Sarver was confused on this point. You did not respond. So I ask again, if Sarver doesn't know that his employee-athletes are making monster cash, where does he think the money is going?

where the bottom line, is what their return on their investment, is what really matters.

I guess your argument is that Sarver doesn't think it's necessary to stroke his players' egos. You might be right about that.

But I have to say, I don't think it's necessary either. Johnson didn't leave because he was "insulted"; he left because he wanted to be an All-Star on a maximum contract. He'll say it's because he was insulted, or disrespected, or whatever, because that way he doesn't look like a greedy self-absorbed moron. But too bad, he's still a greedy self-absorbed moron.

Sarver has made players feel wanted when the situation has been right. The dog-and-pony show they did for Nash probably helped, although the bottom line was that they were offering more money than Cuban, and that was probably the deciding factor. They did what they could for Finley. They snapped Bell up right away, when he could have shopped around for a better deal (and probably gotten it, seeing how the market ended up overpaying for SGs).

Your big fear is losing Stoudemire. But there isn't a shred of evidence that Sarver hasn't fawned over Stoudemire at every opportunity. Stoudemire says he wants Kurt Thomas, the Suns get Kurt Thomas. Stoudemire has some words with Joe Johnson, bye-bye Joe Johnson. Stoudemire says kiss my ass, Sarver says would you like a blow while I'm at it. He's doing everything he can.

Sarver has acted like an idiot and has an ego problem.

No argument there. But that doesn't make him cheap.

elindholm, you have stated you do not like the way JC has done things, that is fine if you think that way, but why does it bother you if I think Sarver does not know what he is doing?

Because your main point is that he is cheap, and I just don't think that's correct. If you want to call him other names, that's fine with me. Just stop saying Sarver is cheap, and we're done.

 

[sunsfn]

What a fool.

Grow up.

Amazing that I feel the same way about the way you just respond to people to upset them. Talk about a fool that needs to grow up, look in the mirror chaplin!

 

[George O'Brien]

Last summer Manu signed a six year $53 million deal, yet he was a much bigger "star" than JJ. The Suns were able to get Richardson for $45 million. Turkoglu signed for $36.8 million. Last year except for Kobe, the market for wings was not that great.

Typically, the big money goes to big men and point guards. The usual belief has been that wing players are easiest to replace. Take away Kobe and T-Mac and generally this has been true - until this year. Allen was overpaid in relation to his age and history of injuries. Michael Redd is good - but he got $90.1 million for six years which is outrageous. Larry Huges is a nice player but he got a $60 million deal over 5 years after shooting only 43% and just 28.2% for three.

Did the Suns make a mistake not signing JJ a year ago? Sure, but that was based on knowing the market would explode.The deal that the Suns offered JJ would have been the second biggest deal for a wing a year ago was considered an insult this year.

How can you compare these two summers? Obviously the Cavs screwed up the market by being a playoff contender with an awful lot of cap space which really jacked up the market.

Timing is everything. The Suns paniced the year they signed Marbury and Marion to long term contracts and overpaid. Many of us think Marion is a bit overpaid, but a year ago Jefferson signed for a similiar sized contract and Marion is a lot better than Jefferson. Did they make a mistake? Should they have risked Marion being on the free agent market?

I won't pretend to know how to KNOW for sure what is the best decision, so I'm not going to second guess someone who makes a judgment call that turns out wrong.

 

[Chaplin]

Amazing that I feel the same way about the way you just respond to people to upset them. Talk about a fool that needs to grow up, look in the mirror chaplin!

Are you kidding again? For someone that thinks so highly of himself, you can't have a civilized conversation, can you? Instead, you have to bring something up that's a year old, and pretty stupid to boot. Nice.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

All of your posts are filled with such hatred.

posting on the internet is serious business.

 

[JS22]

posting on the internet is serious business.

I dont get it?

 

[sunsfn]

Are you kidding again? For someone that thinks so highly of himself,
***********
There you go again chaplin, talking about yourself!!
*******************

you can't have a civilized conversation, can you? Instead, you have to bring something up that's a year old, and pretty stupid to boot. Nice.

I did not start this you did.............remember? Probably not!

Civilized conversation,,,,,,,,with you!

Chaplin, that does not happen on this site with you and other people very often! You mainly come to this site to give people a bad time about something they posted, not just to argue with them, but to try to embarass them!

I never respond to other people like I respond to you.

Other people may argue about something but they have a right to do that, and I may argue back, but I do not try to embarass them.

-

 

[sly fly]

Joe Johnson is not with the Suns? What happened?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Wow.....you guys need to chill.....so much anger...


Being that i have been a JJ supporter since we traded for him (and no i did not post on asfn at the time but you will have to take my word....that or talk to everyone i have talked suns bball with over the last two years...Whenever Joe had a big game i would get about half a dozen calls) and I knew this would happen.

The argument i have been getting into the most this summer that some people dont seem to get is contracts are paid for EXPECTED production. In other words potential. Kwame Brown was not given 8 million by the Lakers becuse of his sick 4 pt average a game. Its because he has tools to develop and apparently the Lakers think they can get that out of him. Of course JJ was not worth 50 million after last season. Thats a stupid point. Thats not why Sarver should have paid him. Its his skill set, size, and willingness to work (this is something the suns were esp. privy too) that should have been the reason they paid him. Lets just say 6'8 23 year olds who can shoot and handle the ball dont grow on trees. If the guy is not a head case, pay him and its likely that he will grow into his contract. Better yet he will grow out of his contract and you will be paying him below his value for the next four years (which would have been the case with JJ).

The reason esteemed basketball minds like JC and myself (ahem ) wanted to pay JJ is because all young players are inconsistent. This seems to be the biggest gripe prior to this year about JJ for the masses. My point is if the player works (see Joe shooting 500 3's a day last offseason) and has talent, barring injury, he will develop. This whole inconsistent argument really gets to me because i remember right after steph was traded and Amare was out Joe had something like 10 straight 20 + games. The differnce? He was one of the first two options in the offense. Does everybody forget that string of games??? Around that time, recently traded Penny was quoted as saying "he's (JJ) becoming like Paul Pierce or Tracy McGrady. Give him 20 shots a game and he will average 25 ppg" or how about when Casey Jacobson was interviewed that same year they asked him the most underrated player in the NBA he has played against, he said " I play against him every day in practice, Joe Johnson" Gambo and Ash continued to press and he would not relent. Joe was his guy. Many of you have had way too high of expectations of Joe before last season and it was plain to me that he was just a young player trying to find his role on the offense (notice the deference to shawn and amare after that string of 20+ points games)

Bottom line: Joe should have been paid last year. Now hindsight is 20/20, but im convinced most NBA basketball people saw what i saw in Joe, and Sarver paid no mind. Understandable with all the money he spen and just stepping in, but still a mistake. In my mind Joes biggest flaw is his lack of passion to be the best. But he is so talented he would have been the prefect compliment to Amare. And thats how the payroll should have been set up as well.

oh well. What are you going to do. It was an understandable mistake by Sarver based on flawwed logic ("he isn't a star, i have already paid for Nash and Q") I thought the summer of Joe Johnson was over. Lets let sleeping dogs lie and bring on the Boris Diaw era!!!!

 

[devilalum]

I've accepted the JJ deal and moved on but I haven't forgotten it either.


If the Suns drop back into the pack this year as a result of the moves they've made and then lose Amare Sarver will have to step up and take the blame.

If a big corporation posts record earnings followed by big changes from the CEO and then loses a bunch of money that companies shareholders would form a lynch mob.

If the Suns lose Amare they'll be back in the lotto.

 

[elindholm]

If the Suns lose Amare they'll be back in the lotto.

If the Suns lose Stoudemire they might as well pack up and move the franchise. He's the closest thing to greatness they've ever had.

But, as has been made pretty clear here -- I hope -- if they do lose him, it's almost impossible that it will be before 2009. So let's worry about it then.

 

[devilalum]

If the Suns lose Amare they'll be back in the lotto.

If the Suns lose Stoudemire they might as well pack up and move the franchise. He's the closest thing to greatness they've ever had.

But, as has been made pretty clear here -- I hope -- if they do lose him, it's almost impossible that it will be before 2009. So let's worry about it then.

This is the thing. I've waited 35 years for the SUns to get a legit big man. Barkley was nice but he was just a rental. Amare is the Suns Moses Malone, Kareem, Duncan... The kind of guy that carries your franchise, the kind of guy that you plug in players around and just keep on winning. If the Suns lose Amare it'll tear the heart out of this franchise.

 

[George O'Brien]

Before we TOO carried away with this, it is worth considering what did and did not happen this summer. What did NOT happen was the Suns letting JJ get away. What they did was make a business and economic decision that they were better off with a solid prospect and two first round picks than to overpay a supporting player and create major economic problems going forward.

It is fine to change the subject and say the Suns made a mistake a year ago, but the decision to make the deal is hardly a sign that they are on the verge of losing Amare. Even if Amare gets a player option after his 3rd year, it is not until the summer of 2009. Somehow worrying about the Lakers tanking for four years by never signing anyone to long term contracts just to have a chance at Amare takes paranoia to new heights.