Amare missed practice because of knee.

[elindholm]

Glad to have you back. We need a good dose of semantics around here.

Since you didn't respond to the specific issue that sentence was directed to, let me just say that it was in response to the ridiculous claim that the Suns outright lied that Amare would be back in 4-5 months.

GD cumbersome quote function...

I didn't realize that you were referring to that specifically. Yes, they were being truthful there, because they were stating what they honestly believed would be the case.

I know therealpokerface is going to come crashing in with another tirade about how only a deluded fool could have bought into that timetable, but it appears that the timetable was indeed correct for the microfractured knee.

 

[Chaplin]

GD cumbersome quote function...

I'm actually pretty impressed you got it to work...

I didn't realize that you were referring to that specifically. Yes, they were being truthful there, because they were stating what they honestly believed would be the case.

I know therealpokerface is going to come crashing in with another tirade about how only a deluded fool could have bought into that timetable, but it appears that the timetable was indeed correct for the microfractured knee.

I suppose the microfractured knee could be to blame for all these problems, but there has been zero reports of any problems on it since March, so I wonder why some people are really continuing to harp on that knee and turning around and comparing it to Penny Hardaway...

 

[Covert Rain]

For the last time guys..... the 1st operated knee is fine (mircofracture). It's the other knee that is giving him problems.

Having said that, I think it's obvious that all the stuff released up to the team up to this point has mostly been marketing/PR crud. Amare's other knee is not fine. He is still havin issues both physically and mentally.

There is no way Amare will be 100% at the start of this season. In fact, he may not be by the All Star break. Peoples expectations are too high. I think even though the original knee is not bothering him, he is not 100%. Now add another bump knee on top of that and I think that says it all.

Amare will not be the same this year. Let the guy come off the bench until he proves he can be 100%. Until then, we have a good team and they should ease him into the lineup.

 

[boisesuns]

As much as the stories and speculation go back and forth, the real opinions about Amare will only have some merit when we can all see him play a game.

 

[pokerface]

Pokerface, I hope you have taken into consideration that a person can get drowned bobbing for apples in the koolaid.

Seriously, what about my theory of Amare's tires (knees) wearing out at the same time. I think I could make just as good an argument for this, as the argument that one knee problem begat the other. If you are going to start referring to what the doctors have said, then you will be on our side... because Amare theoretically should have been healthy last season when he tried his comeback (and was cleared by the doctors to do so).

Maybe Amares "good knee" was in a weakened state before he had microfracture. Maybe all the rehab, early comeback, and compensating pushed that knee over the edge. All I'm saying is the Suns throwing around early return dates wasnt a positive influence on Amares overall health for either knee. If the Suns didnt push him back in 5 months and benched him from the year we could have ruled out certain contributory factors...correct?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I unfortunately haven't had time to be here much at all this past month -- and haven't been able to read this whole thread...

But, here is my take - sorry if someone else said it first...

Who the hell cares that he sat out a practice? I would rather him sit out every other day than going full on in each practice. He still needs to build more strength and get more confidence in the knee. Pushing it constantly is not the way to do that - and it is exactly what got him into trouble earlier in the summer.

Practice and training camp are important, but it is much more important to pace Amare so that he has a continual build of strength so by the end of the season he is in better form...

IMO, it is much better to keep Amare on a steady increasing workload. And I mean a long term deal, very long term - like all season.

He was rushed back last year and earlier this summer - so much so that it caused an issue in his other knee. It would be much better to see a slow but steady increase than to see good performance, then a setback...

Look at microfracture histories. The failed attempts (Webber, Penny), constantly rushed to come back, and when they did they came back hard. They had some great games, but always hit another setback.

Then look at the successful attempts (Randolph, Kidd). They slowly came back. They played most games, but weren't afraid to sit out every now and then to rest the knee. When they first came back, they didn't look bad - but they just weren't themselves. As time went on, and again - lots of time, they started to regain their previous form.

The goal for Amare should be to survive this season, and play in 85% of the games. To be a steady contributer, as a starter. To be able to post decent numbers, and help keep the defense honest inside.

Then we should aim for an All-Star player next season. Like I said, look at Kidd. He was an impact player his first year back, but nothing overly special. However, the following season - he was back in form. THAT is what we should be aiming for.

 

[elindholm]

But Andy, your gauge for whether a comeback was "rushed" is based on how successful it was, not on the timing.

I don't remember when Kidd's microfracture was, but he has played at least 66 games in every season since his first one in Phoenix, so the microfracture clearly didn't keep him out very long.

Similarly, Randolph played in 46 games in '04-'05, which is more than Stoudemire would have played had his first comeback not been aborted.

The only thing that made Stoudemire's comeback appear "rushed" is that his "good" knee fell apart as soon as he attempted it. Other than that, his timetable was the same as Kidd's and Randolph's, if not slower.

 

[pokerface]

Lied that they felt a healthy Amare would help this team? Lied that he was 100% (I haven't ever seen that quote, but perhaps someone official said it)? Lied that he would be returning to play this year? So when you say lied again, to what are you referring?

The lie I refer to is when they said they wouldn't bring Amare back until he's 100%. Then they mention return target date(s) of 4-5 months insinuating he would be 100% by then.

 

[pokerface]

You know what gets me....Could the Suns have picked less time for a recovery date than 4 months for a return from microfracture . I mean does anyone say "Four months is PLENTY of time to get back to 100% for Amare". 4-5 months seems like the BARE MINIMUM to me....and not even. Can anyone say Amares knee(s) would not have been any healthier or feeling better 12-18 months post surgery instead of 5 months? Did Amare feel like he was 100% in 5 months. I keep hearing how he is going to be 100% but I never hear him getting to that point.

 

[AZZenny]

Can anyone say Amares knees(s) would not have been any healthier or feeling better 12-18 months post surgery instead of 5 months?

Actually, a number of us here said that at the time after reading the medical research -- that 18-24 months is when they consider the recovery complete enough to do outcome comparison studies -- rarely before.

Italy should be about 8-9 hours ahead of us. If stuff is posted online in prompt fashion, what we would see online in the morning is based on what they already saw that same day. So to speak. We get Italy's Wednesday evening news here on Wednesday morning.

 

[pokerface]

Actually, a number of us here said that at the time after reading the medical research -- that 18-24 months is when they consider the recovery complete enough to do outcome comparison studies -- rarely before.

That makes sense to me. That makes a lot more sense than 5 months being a reliable indicator.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Unfortunately, some people are convinced that the organization outright lied to the fans, which is so ridiculous it's not even funny.

Why is it ridiculous?

They lied when they signed Marbury to his huge extension and said that he would be the cornerstone of the team for years.

For it to be a lie, you have to have intent to deceive. I believe they had every intention of doing just what they said with Marbury. They just changed their mind. In fact, Sarver's purchase might have come into play at the time of the Marbury trade.

The argument doesn't really make sense. If they were lying, then they signed him while intending to trade him. Did the signing make Marbury more or less marketable? Did they sign him in order to make him less marketable so they would have to trade away more picks in order to get rid of him?

They lied when they said that Nash was their top free-agent choice two summers ago, when it's documented that they offered the money to Bryant first.

Interesting there. They offered money to Bryant, but they were on the plane to Texas.

They all but lied last summer when they talked up Stoudemire's role in a potential championship run, when they knew that microfracture was a distinct possibility.

I don't remember that. Not saying its not true, but do you have a source on that. Even then, they were in the WC finals without KT. BTW, athletes and coaches are usually optimistic. Pessimists expect little and get what they expect.

I support the organization and think they usually tell the truth, or at least some version of it, but it is not "ridiculous" to suspect that they might have lied. Again.

Certainly, there are times when they have not divulged all of the facts. But we don't necessarily have a right to all the facts, although most message board fans think they have a right to know everything, and if they don't get every bit of info--its lying. (sorry for the run-on sentence)

 

[Errntknght]

JCSunsfan, "For it to be a lie, you have to have intent to deceive. I believe they had every intention of doing just what they said with Marbury. They just changed their mind. In fact, Sarver's purchase might have come into play at the time of the Marbury trade.

The argument doesn't really make sense. If they were lying, then they signed him while intending to trade him. Did the signing make Marbury more or less marketable? Did they sign him in order to make him less marketable so they would have to trade away more picks in order to get rid of him?"

When it comes to trading and acquiring players teams cannot afford to be too open about it. I was stunned when they gave Marbs that huge contract - there was certainly nothing leading up to that which indicated that Stephon was worth that kind of money here. At the time I concluded that they wanted to pay him more than Kidd was getting so, by some perversion of logic, it would look like they got the better of the Kidd/Marbury trade. After the trade that got rid of Penny's and Marbs' contracts I changed my mind - I think BC had it in mind that he could better trade Marbury to the Knicks if he was signed to a long term contract, just as he did. I really think he had that specific trade in mind because there'd long been interest on the part of the Knicks and money was not a crucial issue with them.

 

[pokerface]

If the Suns never lie then I guess they are just stupid. Hard for me to believe that they actually thought Amare would be ready to go 4-5 months post microfracture and be anywhere near 100% healthy....and lo and behold he's still not 100% a full year later...what a shocker!

 

[D-Dogg]

I know I am not a popular guy on this forum but my Laker fandom doesn't count in this equation....I really like Amare and hope he can come back to his old form, but it's very dire. Amare is an explosive, powerful and exciting player to watch and I'm afraid he won't ever be the same. Yes, I am afraid...even if his injuries help the Lakers when we play the Suns, because I hate to see a phenomenal talent wasted. I hope the best for the guy, but part of his game is his incredible athleticism, and knee problems of that magnitude really attack that style of game.

There is always hope, but the news has not been good.

 

[pokerface]

That might be true D-DOGG but at least the Suns will be better than the Lakers for the forseeable future. Call it a silver lining or something.

 

[D-Dogg]

That might be true D-DOGG but at least the Suns should be better than the Lakers for the forseeable future. Call it a silver lining or something.

Just a minor fix. The NBA is weird, and we did take you to seven. You should be better, but no guarantees.

 

[Joe Mama]

Free Andy Graham!



Bring him home.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Free Andy Graham!



Bring him home.

LOL

 

[myrondizzo]

If the Suns never lie then I guess they are just stupid. Hard for me to believe that they actually thought Amare would be ready to go 4-5 months post microfracture and be anywhere near 100% healthy....and lo and behold he's still not 100% a full year later...what a shocker!

actually amare was back and the microfractured knee was ready it is his other knee that is giving him problems now.

 

[Bada0Bing]

I know I am not a popular guy on this forum but my Laker fandom doesn't count in this equation....I really like Amare and hope he can come back to his old form, but it's very dire. Amare is an explosive, powerful and exciting player to watch and I'm afraid he won't ever be the same. Yes, I am afraid...even if his injuries help the Lakers when we play the Suns, because I hate to see a phenomenal talent wasted. I hope the best for the guy, but part of his game is his incredible athleticism, and knee problems of that magnitude really attack that style of game.

There is always hope, but the news has not been good.

That's okay, you're still a cool cat.

Neal Schweiber: My mom says women prefer guys with a good sense of humor.

 

[Chaplin]

This is from a transcript of a conference call with the coach:

Q: I think everybody is interested in Amare so far. What have you seen from him? Has there been any hesitation and are you encouraged?

A: I think so, it’s like a roller-coaster, its going to go up and down. Some days are better than others. The other day he missed practice because he was stiff, not his knees, but other things. And the day we had a scrimmage he looked pretty good. I don’t know how to put it, I think he’s a ways away yet. We’ll just see if he can get over the hurdle. I think it’s just a matter of time and patience and trying to get him back to where he was.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/europe_conference_call.html

 

[Mainstreet]

Maybe Amares "good knee" was in a weakened state before he had microfracture. Maybe all the rehab, early comeback, and compensating pushed that knee over the edge.

Then are you conceding that Amare's "good knee" may not have been so good before microfracture? This would give some weight to my theory that Amare's knees could have wore out together (as a set of tires on a vehicle) as a real possibility.

All I'm saying is the Suns throwing around early return dates wasnt a positive influence on Amares overall health for either knee. If the Suns didnt push him back in 5 months and benched him from the year we could have ruled out certain contributory factors...correct?

The Suns did not push Amare back in 5 months. The decision was Amare's to make when he was given clearance by the doctor(s). If your referring to Amare's talk with JC, I have never seen where JC pushed him to return to play. I have no doubt that JC gave Amare some advice but that's all it was... advice. Yes, Amare did try to return after his conversation with JC. However, I have never seen the contents of this conversation published so I can't say Amare was pushed. In response to your question, I don't think certain contributory factors can be eliminated as relevant unless a scientifically controlled experiment was conducted.

Anyway, I think you are entitled to your opinion. I don't know the answer about the causation of Amare's knee problems. I'm just trying to say there may be a number of different factors involved here and there no definitive answer.

I will say I want Amare to get well ASAP (if he is not near there already) and that I want the Suns to win a Championship. Also I look forward to the day when hopefully, Amare's knees will not be the topic of conversation.