Amare's return

[nothin' but net]

Yeah, Kerr is right. It takes an offensive minded player a long time to adjust to coming back. Ask Tim Thomas.

 

[mribnik]

Yeah, Kerr is right. It takes an offensive minded player a long time to adjust to coming back. Ask Tim Thomas.

 

[baltimorer]

Wait, did Steve Kerr write an article about the Suns possibly not winning the championship this year? Did his article not include the following:

1. Suns are best team, possibly ever.
2. Steve Nash is MVP
3. Shawn Marion is defensive player of the year and MVP runner-up
4. Eddie House is the best shooter in the league.
5. Raja Bell is the defensive player of the year runner-up.
6. Amare Stoudemire will be the best player in the history of any sport.
7. Boris Diaw is better than Joe Johnson.
8. Joe Johnson is a moron for not staying with the Suns.
9. Mike D'Antoni is coach of the year.
10. Leandro Barbosa is the best shooting guard and point guard in the NBA, second of course to Steve Nash?

Because if he didn't, then obviously he's an idiot. The only good team is the Suns, and the fact that Steve Kerr doesn't think that the NBA should be changed to the National Basketball Association of Suns Players Past and Present (NBASPPP) means he doesn't know about basketball. He doesn't know about Amare and he doesn't know about Webber. Why does he think he knows anything about the Bulls and why they lost to the Magic? Sure he played on the team, but did he ask anybody on this board what their opinion of the Bulls was? No, he just went on his "experience" "playing with" Michael Jordan. Obviously, had he talked to one of you guys here, like Chaplin, he would've known that the Bulls lost because of Penny, Shaq, Nick Anderson, etc. But no, he just wrote some article without consulting with you guys! What a moron.

 

[George O'Brien]

Wait, did Steve Kerr write an article about the Suns possibly not winning the championship this year? Did his article not include the following:

1. Suns are best team, possibly ever.
2. Steve Nash is MVP
3. Shawn Marion is defensive player of the year and MVP runner-up
4. Eddie House is the best shooter in the league.
5. Raja Bell is the defensive player of the year runner-up.
6. Amare Stoudemire will be the best player in the history of any sport.
7. Boris Diaw is better than Joe Johnson.
8. Joe Johnson is a moron for not staying with the Suns.
9. Mike D'Antoni is coach of the year.
10. Leandro Barbosa is the best shooting guard and point guard in the NBA, second of course to Steve Nash?

Because if he didn't, then obviously he's an idiot. The only good team is the Suns, and the fact that Steve Kerr doesn't think that the NBA should be changed to the National Basketball Association of Suns Players Past and Present (NBASPPP) means he doesn't know about basketball. He doesn't know about Amare and he doesn't know about Webber. Why does he think he knows anything about the Bulls and why they lost to the Magic? Sure he played on the team, but did he ask anybody on this board what their opinion of the Bulls was? No, he just went on his "experience" "playing with" Michael Jordan. Obviously, had he talked to one of you guys here, like Chaplin, he would've known that the Bulls lost because of Penny, Shaq, Nick Anderson, etc. But no, he just wrote some article without consulting with you guys! What a moron.

Wait, it was me that brought up the quality of the Bull's opponent. If you're going to slam people, make sure you pick on the right guy.

IMHO the problem with the Bulls that year was not that Jordan came back. My conclusion is that they would have lost anyway. To blame their loss on Jordan coming back is not reasonable. The Bulls won 10 fewer games than the Magic that year. His example simply does not support the point he was trying to make that Amare's return could reduce the chances of the Suns winning in the playoffs.

 

[Bunker]

Hey Baltimorer your missing the point...

Wait, did Steve Kerr write an article about the Suns possibly not winning the championship this year? Did his article not include the following:

1. Suns are best team, possibly ever.
2. Steve Nash is MVP
3. Shawn Marion is defensive player of the year and MVP runner-up
4. Eddie House is the best shooter in the league.
5. Raja Bell is the defensive player of the year runner-up.
6. Amare Stoudemire will be the best player in the history of any sport.
7. Boris Diaw is better than Joe Johnson.
8. Joe Johnson is a moron for not staying with the Suns.
9. Mike D'Antoni is coach of the year.
10. Leandro Barbosa is the best shooting guard and point guard in the NBA, second of course to Steve Nash?

Because if he didn't, then obviously he's an idiot. The only good team is the Suns, and the fact that Steve Kerr doesn't think that the NBA should be changed to the National Basketball Association of Suns Players Past and Present (NBASPPP) means he doesn't know about basketball. He doesn't know about Amare and he doesn't know about Webber. Why does he think he knows anything about the Bulls and why they lost to the Magic? Sure he played on the team, but did he ask anybody on this board what their opinion of the Bulls was? No, he just went on his "experience" "playing with" Michael Jordan. Obviously, had he talked to one of you guys here, like Chaplin, he would've known that the Bulls lost because of Penny, Shaq, Nick Anderson, etc. But no, he just wrote some article without consulting with you guys! What a moron.

Most of the posts on this thread are not debating whether or not the Suns will win the championship. They are debating whether or not the return of Amare can be compared to that of Chris Webber or Michael Jordan. Many feel it cannot be compared...
As far as the Suns winning the championship, that is a different thread and yes if Amare comes back as Amare, we are going to have a dynasty.

 

[Mojo]

I do not get why Kerr says the Bulls had a tough time adjusting to Jordan. They were 34-31 when he came back in 1995, and they finished on a 47-35. 13-4 seems like an awful nice adjustment period. Then again he did play on it, so he probably knows better then me.

 

[se7en]

It's pretty obvious why the Bulls couldn't beat the Magic. It's simply because Jordan's supporting cast wasn't good enough. Take a look at this playoff roster. I mean who would really take that roster over the Suns current roster? After Jordan and Pippen the roster goes from average to bad very quick. It was Rodman the following year that helped put them over the hump.

http://www.sport-stat.km.ru/basketball/teams.php?c=002&y=1995&t=0014

Jordan, Michael 10 420 120 248 11 30 64 79 20 45 65 45 30 0 23 41 14 315
Pippen, Scottie 10 396 58 131 14 38 48 71 24 62 86 58 40 1 14 27 10 178
Kukoc, Toni 10 372 53 111 14 32 18 26 20 48 68 57 23 0 10 19 2 138
Armstrong, B. J. 10 288 36 79 13 29 18 22 4 14 18 27 21 0 6 6 0 103
Longley, Luc 10 204 24 50 0 0 8 10 6 26 32 11 41 1 7 10 5 56
Kerr, Steve 10 193 19 40 8 19 5 5 1 5 6 15 14 0 1 0 0 51
Perdue, Will 10 176 19 37 0 0 12 21 18 30 48 6 27 0 1 10 3 50
Wennington, Bill 10 133 21 51 0 0 6 6 12 16 28 3 32 0 3 8 3 48
Buechler, Jud 10 104 9 21 0 2 2 4 11 9 20 5 15 0 4 3 3 20
Myers, Pete 9 79 5 14 1 2 2 6 6 4 10 8 10 0 4 4 1 13
Harper, Ron 6 40 6 14 0 2 0 0 2 4 6 4 6 0 3 1 1 12
Blount, Corie

 

[elindholm]

Wait a minute, they really had Will Purdue and Bill Wennington at the same time? I always suspected those were really the same person, except Wennington had a beard.

 

[boisesuns]

Wait a minute, they really had Will Purdue and Bill Wennington at the same time? I always suspected those were really the same person, except Wennington had a beard.

Haha! Interesting observation.

 

[F-Dog]

I'm with Kerr, actually--it's possible for Amare to make the team worse if he's not healthy, and the big problem for the Suns will be integrating Amare with Boris Diaw. If Amare and Diaw are on the floor together, one of those two will have to play a different role than he's used to.


The advantage I see over the Webber situation (aside from Amare himself--it's possible he's a lot better than Webber was, or that he'll handle the transition much better than Webber did, but there are no guarantees on those scores) is that D'Antoni is much more independent-minded than Rick Adelman is. My bet is that D'Antoni will convince Amare to (temporarily) accept a lesser role, if that's what's in the team's best interest.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm with Kerr, actually--it's possible for Amare to make the team worse if he's not healthy, and the big problem for the Suns will be integrating Amare with Boris Diaw. If Amare and Diaw are on the floor together, one of those two will have to play a different role than he's used to.


The advantage I see over the Webber situation (aside from Amare himself--it's possible he's a lot better than Webber was, or that he'll handle the transition much better than Webber did, but there are no guarantees on those scores) is that D'Antoni is much more independent-minded than Rick Adelman is. My bet is that D'Antoni will convince Amare to (temporarily) accept a lesser role, if that's what's in the team's best interest.

Why do people worry about adjustments by Diaw? He is quite possibly the most versatile player in the NBA. He has repeatedly adjusted to new roles and has thrived.

Amare doesn't have to be his old self if his outside shot is as good as it sounds. With Diaw on the wing, opponents have to come out to defense his jump shot, but he can overpower guards and shoot by centers. So who helps? The guy guarding Marion, the guy guarding Nash, the guy guarding Bell or the guy guarding Stoudemire? In any case, Amare will consistently get single coverage for the first time since his rookie year (other than by the Spurs).

BTW, it is common for people to take about Amare's explosiveness as the key to his success on the pick and roll. I'd suggest that it may be his hands. He might be the best at catching the ball as anyone in the NBA.

 

[Errntknght]

se7en, "It's pretty obvious why the Bulls couldn't beat the Magic. It's simply because Jordan's supporting cast wasn't good enough. Take a look at this playoff roster. I mean who would really take that roster over the Suns current roster? After Jordan and Pippen the roster goes from average to bad very quick. It was Rodman the following year that helped put them over the hump."

Very good point, se7en... I sure didn't remember the team being that weak after Jordan & Pip. Kukoc was fine but BJ and Luc starting... yikes!

Thanks for posting that link, too... nice to have a site with such complete historical information. Haven't seen you around much of late, but you picked a good time to return.


I've got to give F-Dog high marks for courage, sticking up for Kerr that way on this board, but I do agree with George that if Diaw's adaptation to Amare's return is our biggest problem it should go quite smoothly.

My own guess as to where there might be a chemistry problem is with Shawn. The reason his game has improved so much this year is that he is not hanging out on the perimeter a lot, where his quickness and leaping ability are essentially useless. (Not to mention his weak 3pt shooting.) He needs to keep moving around closer in like he has been but the rewards for doing that probably won't be as high with Amare on the floor. If D'Antoni is smart he'll take steps to keep the rewards from declining much but it's not a trivial thing to do. And it may not be essential until we get into a series against the Spurs - if Shawn is too static Bowen figures to give him fits again.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think it's important that Amare is at the games and I assume getting a good idea as to how things are changing. More than anything else, he's seeing the impact of having a lot of guys able to cut to the basket.

In the past couple of years, the Suns focused on spreading the floor to keep opponents from packing the paint. I don't think that is a problem any more. In his first two seasons, packing the paint worked because the Suns were not a threat from the outside.

2002-03 34.3% for three (394-1149)
2003-04 34.5% for three (415-1202)
2004-05 39.3% for three (796-2026)
2005-06 38.7% for three (552-1425) - extrapolates to 794-2050. In Jan they shot 42.4% and in Feb 42.3%

Last season and this season the Suns have become a major outside threat, so the risk of opponents packing the paint is a lot lower now. Having Marion cutting to the basket is not going to draw teams into tight zones.

 

[F-Dog]

Why do people worry about adjustments by Diaw? He is quite possibly the most versatile player in the NBA. He has repeatedly adjusted to new roles and has thrived.

Usually, when people talk about "versatility", they mean range as a defender, and Diaw certainly qualifies there. I don't think Diaw is that versatile on offense, though.

Diaw's success on offense has come from being put in the same situations again and again--isolation in the high post, on the left elbow, against a quickness mismatch, and also as the pick in high P&Rs. He's also a guy who seems to get better with more touches, so there's no telling whether he'll be as effective if his role is reduced.

 

[George O'Brien]

Usually, when people talk about "versatility", they mean range as a defender, and Diaw certainly qualifies there. I don't think Diaw is that versatile on offense, though.

Diaw's success on offense has come from being put in the same situations again and again--isolation in the high post, on the left elbow, against a quickness mismatch, and also as the pick in high P&Rs. He's also a guy who seems to get better with more touches, so there's no telling whether he'll be as effective if his role is reduced.

A guy who can shoot from the outside, drive on big guys, post up smaller guys, and pass better than most point guards sounds pretty versatile to me.

 

[F-Dog]

A guy who can shoot from the outside, drive on big guys, post up smaller guys, and pass better than most point guards sounds pretty versatile to me.

I think Diaw has the tools to become versatile on offense, but he's not there yet by a long shot.

 

[nowagimp]

It's pretty obvious why the Bulls couldn't beat the Magic. It's simply because Jordan's supporting cast wasn't good enough. Take a look at this playoff roster. I mean who would really take that roster over the Suns current roster? After Jordan and Pippen the roster goes from average to bad very quick. It was Rodman the following year that helped put them over the hump.

http://www.sport-stat.km.ru/basketball/teams.php?c=002&y=1995&t=0014

Jordan, Michael 10 420 120 248 11 30 64 79 20 45 65 45 30 0 23 41 14 315
Pippen, Scottie 10 396 58 131 14 38 48 71 24 62 86 58 40 1 14 27 10 178
Kukoc, Toni 10 372 53 111 14 32 18 26 20 48 68 57 23 0 10 19 2 138
Armstrong, B. J. 10 288 36 79 13 29 18 22 4 14 18 27 21 0 6 6 0 103
Longley, Luc 10 204 24 50 0 0 8 10 6 26 32 11 41 1 7 10 5 56
Kerr, Steve 10 193 19 40 8 19 5 5 1 5 6 15 14 0 1 0 0 51
Perdue, Will 10 176 19 37 0 0 12 21 18 30 48 6 27 0 1 10 3 50
Wennington, Bill 10 133 21 51 0 0 6 6 12 16 28 3 32 0 3 8 3 48
Buechler, Jud 10 104 9 21 0 2 2 4 11 9 20 5 15 0 4 3 3 20
Myers, Pete 9 79 5 14 1 2 2 6 6 4 10 8 10 0 4 4 1 13
Harper, Ron 6 40 6 14 0 2 0 0 2 4 6 4 6 0 3 1 1 12
Blount, Corie

My recollection is that Jordan shot poorly(41%), and couldnt guard Penny Hardaway off the dribble, which was a shock to me. At the time I thought, OMG, Hardaway has displaced Jordan as the top two guard in the NBA! Then came the injuries. Penny was first team all NBA that year, and it was shaq who performed poorly in the NBA finals(Olajuwon took him to school) series loss to the rockets. Penny performed very well agains the rockets(25.5ppg, 50% FG, 8asst).

 

[nowagimp]

A guy who can shoot from the outside, drive on big guys, post up smaller guys, and pass better than most point guards sounds pretty versatile to me.

I think that Diaw is quite versatile by todays NBA standards. He needs to improve his outside shot some more(it already has improved), and develop that left handed dribble penetration. I think that the ball should go through Diaws hands to Amare, not visa versa. Amare will benefit from the passing of both Nash and Diaw. I think this is especially important now that Amare is coming off injury. We cant have Amare taking on too much too quickly. Some easy baskets off assists from Diaw(as well as nash) are just what is needed to take some pressure off Amare. Think about it, this guy scored 37ppg agaijnst the spurs in the playoffs. How can he top that. He has set standards for himself that are very high. Amare should not be trying to perform at that level coming off injury.

 

[baltimorer]

My recollection is that Jordan shot poorly(41%), and couldnt guard Penny Hardaway off the dribble, which was a shock to me. At the time I thought, OMG, Hardaway has displaced Jordan as the top two guard in the NBA! Then came the injuries. Penny was first team all NBA that year, and it was shaq who performed poorly in the NBA finals(Olajuwon took him to school) series loss to the rockets. Penny performed very well agains the rockets(25.5ppg, 50% FG, 8asst).

Maybe this is relevant though. When Jordan came back, the Bulls were obviously going to make him the number 1 option, which led to some problems because MJ wasn't quite good enough to be the number one option and lead those Bulls past the Magic. In game 2, the game was tied and Nick Anderson stole the ball from Jordan, leading to a Horace Grant dunk. Then Jordan came down and went up for a jumper, decided to pass to Pippen, who was cutting, and the ball went out of bounds. Magic win. That was a pretty big turning point in the series.

How does this relate to the Suns? It depends. If Amare isn't at full strength, then the Suns are going to have to figure out a different way to use him. D'Antoni will probably do a good job solving this, and Steve Nash will likely be able to adjust perfectly. However, it could add some confusion in the late 4th quarters of close games. The Bulls had no one who could guard Penny - Jordan and Pippen both tried and failed - but what happens if Amare comes back at 80%. Who is going to guard Tim Duncan? Even at full strength, Amare never could. Diaw can play the 3, 4, and 5, but you'd have to think that Amare will cut into Diaw's time at least somewhat. So there is some confusion there.

One of the Suns best strength is their amazing chemistry; adding a guy who was previously the 1st option on offense might be difficult.

 

[myrondizzo]

I think the point you are missing is this team was built around amare. everytime i watch a game i can see this gaping hole in the middle where he is supposed to be. it might take 10-15 games to get the bugs worked out of some of the plays that this team was designed for but i think theyll get it sorted out well before the WCF. and it TD that couldnt guard amare not the other way around. the real problem with amare's D last year was the lack of depth on the team and fear of foul trouble.

 

[scotsman13]

the reason players like jordan and webber have had problems when they came back is because they run the offense through them. we dont use amare to creat for others we use amare to score. if we lost nash or boris for a long time and then try to focus things back to the way they were then sure we would have problems.

last week we saw just what it is going to be like to have amare come back in bring in tim thomas. he came and scored and did everything with ease because he had to wait for the ball to come to him. for amare it is going to be rebound set pick and score nothing more.

 

[CaptainInsano]

the reason players like jordan and webber have had problems when they came back is because they run the offense through them. we dont use amare to creat for others we use amare to score. if we lost nash or boris for a long time and then try to focus things back to the way they were then sure we would have problems.

last week we saw just what it is going to be like to have amare come back in bring in tim thomas. he came and scored and did everything with ease because he had to wait for the ball to come to him. for amare it is going to be rebound set pick and score nothing more.

Not just that but some quick passes and a drilled jumpshot will give us some good extra punch from around 15ft. He was very potent with this last year but looking at how well Barbs has been shooting after he had some injury time to practice his shot Amares shot will probably be almost automatic so he will not always have to set the pick.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Maybe this is relevant though. When Jordan came back, the Bulls were obviously going to make him the number 1 option, which led to some problems because MJ wasn't quite good enough to be the number one option and lead those Bulls past the Magic. In game 2, the game was tied and Nick Anderson stole the ball from Jordan, leading to a Horace Grant dunk. Then Jordan came down and went up for a jumper, decided to pass to Pippen, who was cutting, and the ball went out of bounds. Magic win. That was a pretty big turning point in the series.

How does this relate to the Suns? It depends. If Amare isn't at full strength, then the Suns are going to have to figure out a different way to use him. D'Antoni will probably do a good job solving this, and Steve Nash will likely be able to adjust perfectly. However, it could add some confusion in the late 4th quarters of close games. The Bulls had no one who could guard Penny - Jordan and Pippen both tried and failed - but what happens if Amare comes back at 80%. Who is going to guard Tim Duncan? Even at full strength, Amare never could. Diaw can play the 3, 4, and 5, but you'd have to think that Amare will cut into Diaw's time at least somewhat. So there is some confusion there.

One of the Suns best strength is their amazing chemistry; adding a guy who was previously the 1st option on offense might be difficult.

AND BINGO WAS HIS NAME-O!

 

[Chaplin]

Here's the real question then, how many people want Amare back? If the doctors say he's ok, and he says he's ok, what right does anyone, especially fans who aren't doctors and have no idea what they're talking about, have to say about it?

So let's assume he is going to come back. A lot of people here are moaning that his return will change Boris' role. Well, duh. But let's see, do we want Boris to keep getting triple doubles and raise his price this summer, or do we want the most dominating force in the NBA to return to the lineup and give us our best chance to win a championship since 94-95?

Hmm, lemme see...

 

[elindholm]

Here's the real question then, how many people want Amare back? If the doctors say he's ok, and he says he's ok, what right does anyone, especially fans who aren't doctors and have no idea what they're talking about, have to say about it?

Are you asking who wants him back, or who thinks that their opinion should influence Stoudemire and the rest of the Suns? Those questions aren't the same.

For me, the drop-dead date is April 1, more or less. Later than that and it won't do any good to bring him back this season, so I'd just as soon let him rest. But that doesn't mean that I expect anyone to listen to me.