And the bench woes continue

[Griffin]

Last 10 games:

[B]with Nash	w/o Nash	Nash min	opp		result[/B]

 +8		-14		36 min		vs Mavs		LOSS
+18	 	-17		38 min		vs Jazz		WIN
 +3	 	 -8		37 min		vs Kings	LOSS
+12	 	  0		34 min		@ Jazz		WIN
+19	 	 +5		27 min		vs. GS		WIN
+12	 	  0		37 min		@ GS		WIN
 +9	 	-13		35 min		vs OKC		LOSS
+20	 	 -5		37 min		vs Bucks	WIN
 +8	 	 -6		35 min		vs Hornets	WIN
+21	 	 -4		33 min		vs Celtics	WIN

The Suns have won 7 of their last 9 games after their last three-game losing streak. In those 9 games, the Suns have outscored their opponent every time while Nash was on the floor, but only once while Nash was on the bench (24-point win vs. Golden State). In 5 of the 9 games the Suns were outscored by their opponent while Nash was resting with the remaining two games the bench managed to stay even. The two losses vs. OKC and the Kings came when the bench was outscored by the largest amount (by 13 and 8, respectively). The Suns lost those games even though Nash played 35 minutes and 37 minutes, respectively, and the Suns, with Nash on the floor, outscored the other team in both games.

Note that most of these games were with Dowdell, but Dragic didn't fair much better before his injury. The difference was that back then the Suns were getting outscored with or without Nash. Our defense and scoring has picked up, but the bench is not able to score points and maintain leads. The Suns had been winning despite the fact that the bench has been undoing most of the work that the starters had been doing. Tonight the Suns won by 1 point. Had the bench managed to simply stay even with Utah, the Suns would have won this game by 18. The end result is that we've lost some games that the starters had basically won, and that Nash is playing heavy minutes again.

Last season we also had an all-reserve second unit, but the bench faired much better offensively. That was Dragic, Barbosa, Dudley, Amundson and Frye. This year we have Dragic/Dowdell, Pietrus, Dudley, Warrick and Gortat. Dragic has taken a major step back this season. He isn't scoring and he isn't distributing the ball at all. The offense looks stagnant and confused. Dowdell didn't really look much better in those areas. But that's not the only difference. Our bench this year has players who need to play with Nash to be effective offensively (Gortat, Warrick and even Pietrus). No Barbosa to drive to the hoop. No Amundson to clean up the boards. No one who can create his own shot with Dragic struggling the way he has. The Suns left Frye in the game tonight after Nash went to the bench the first time, but he never got the ball in position to shoot. Dragic couldn't get him a good look.

How to fix this? We could move Lopez to the bench, but that won't improve it. He is even more useless without Nash than Gortat on the offensive end. We could move Carter, but he hasn't played well at all and I don't see why he would play any better off the bench. We could rest Nash earlier in the third and bring him in sooner in the fourth, but that won't change the fact that the starters will still have to undo the damage done by the bench. They'll just have more time to do it. We could hope that Dragic will rediscover his game. Or forget this all-reserve unit stuff and always have some starters on the court. But who? So many of our players depend on Nash to create opportunities for them.

 

[Chaplin]

Our bench point production is the best it's been in 4 years, so something has to give.

For example, the main 2 reasons we lost to the Sacramento Kings a couple days ago were because of two of our starters: Grant Hill and Channing Frye. Channing had a great first half, but a terrible 2nd, and Grant Hill had a terrible whole game.

 

[Griffin]

Our bench point production is the best it's been in 4 years, so something has to give.

For example, the main 2 reasons we lost to the Sacramento Kings a couple days ago were because of two of our starters: Grant Hill and Channing Frye. Channing had a great first half, but a terrible 2nd, and Grant Hill had a terrible whole game.

The bench points per game is a bit misleading, because a lot of those points are scored while Nash is on the floor. For example, Gortat has been our best bench scorer over the last few weeks, but most of his points came alongside Nash.

A more interesting statistic would be our points per game in the 15 minutes a game or so that Nash rests. I don't have that statistic, but tonight we scored 4 points in 5 minutes the first time Nash rested (with Dragic), and 5 points in 5 minutes the second time (with Dowdell). Against the Kings, we did decently (10 points) the first time Nash sat, but the second time the Suns managed only 2 points in just over 4 minutes to start the 4th quarter. The Suns led that game by 3 when Nash came out of the game and trailed by 5 when he got back in with 7 minutes to go.

 

[Joe Mama]

The bench points per game is a bit misleading, because a lot of those points are scored while Nash is on the floor. For example, Gortat has been our best bench scorer over the last few weeks, but most of his points came alongside Nash.

A more interesting statistic would be our points per game in the 15 minutes a game or so that Nash rests. I don't have that statistic, but tonight we scored 4 points in 5 minutes the first time Nash rested (with Dragic), and 5 points in 5 minutes the second time (with Dowdell). Against the Kings, we did decently (10 points) the first time Nash sat, but the second time the Suns managed only 2 points in just over 4 minutes to start the 4th quarter. The Suns led that game by 3 when Nash came out of the game and trailed by 5 when he got back in with 7 minutes to go.

yeah, but the entire threat is a bit misleading isn't it? It's not necessarily the bench that's the problem. It's the offense without Steve Nash in the game. That's because there are two players missing from this year's roster... Amare Stoudemire and Leandro Barbosa. Maybe somebody could check the numbers on this, but I always liked Amare out there with the bench. He was able to initiate offense and it meant a little less the horrible defensive combination of Nash/Amare. Barbosa had his problems, but he was very good at breaking down defenses as well. Right now when Nash sits there really isn't another player who can consistently break down the opposing defense.

I'm too lazy to look up numbers right now, but I do wonder if it would make more sense to use Carter off the bench and put Pietrus in the starting lineup. It's sad. He is probably the second most capable playmaker on the team.

Joe Mama

 

[desertdawg]

The bench points per game is a bit misleading, because a lot of those points are scored while Nash is on the floor. For example, Gortat has been our best bench scorer over the last few weeks, but most of his points came alongside Nash.

Great point, that is why we need to start Gortat. Plus his defense is better which would help us get off to better starts. I am starting to not care about when or how we get Lopez in until he starts playing consistently. Nash's time is wasted when we don't build a lead.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Great point, that is why we need to start Gortat. Plus his defense is better which would help us get off to better starts. I am starting to not care about when or how we get Lopez in until he starts playing consistently. Nash's time is wasted when we don't build a lead.

I think you must have skipped his last paragraph. Starting Gortat does not appear to be the answer. He plays most of his minutes alongside Nash anyway and unless you're suggesting that he match Nash minute for minute that's not going to change.

Last year we had JR, Amare, Leandro, Goran and Hill who were each capable of generating some offense for themselves and others. Grant doesn't seem to be able to do that as well this season, Goran is a shadow of the player he was last year and the other 3 are gone. We simply do not have anyone other than Nash that can consistently initiate offense. Well, we have Dowdell who can initiate something but sometimes it's offense and sometimes it's just offensive.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Last 9 games:

[B]with Nash	w/o Nash	Nash min	opp		result[/B]

+18	 	-17		38 min		vs Jazz		WIN
 +3	 	 -8		37 min		vs Kings	LOSS
+12	 	  0		34 min		@ Jazz		WIN
+19	 	 +5		27 min		vs. GS		WIN
+12	 	  0		37 min		@ GS		WIN
 +9	 	-13		35 min		vs OKC		LOSS
+20	 	 -5		37 min		vs Bucks	WIN
 +8	 	 -6		35 min		vs Hornets	WIN
+21	 	 -4		33 min		vs Celtics	WIN

The Suns have won 7 of their last 9 games after their last three-game losing streak. In those 9 games, the Suns have outscored their opponent every time while Nash was on the floor, but only once while Nash was on the bench (24-point win vs. Golden State). In 5 of the 9 games the Suns were outscored by their opponent while Nash was resting with the remaining two games the bench managed to stay even. The two losses vs. OKC and the Kings came when the bench was outscored by the largest amount (by 13 and 8, respectively). The Suns lost those games even though Nash played 35 minutes and 37 minutes, respectively, and the Suns, with Nash on the floor, outscored the other team in both games.

Note that most of these games were with Dowdell, but Dragic didn't fair much better before his injury. The difference was that back then the Suns were getting outscored with or without Nash. Our defense and scoring has picked up, but the bench is not able to score points and maintain leads. The Suns had been winning despite the fact that the bench has been undoing most of the work that the starters had been doing. Tonight the Suns won by 1 point. Had the bench managed to simply stay even with Utah, the Suns would have won this game by 18. The end result is that we've lost some games that the starters had basically won, and that Nash is playing heavy minutes again.

Last season we also had an all-reserve second unit, but the bench faired much better offensively. That was Dragic, Barbosa, Dudley, Amundson and Frye. This year we have Dragic/Dowdell, Pietrus, Dudley, Warrick and Gortat. Dragic has taken a major step back this season. He isn't scoring and he isn't distributing the ball at all. The offense looks stagnant and confused. Dowdell didn't really look much better in those areas. But that's not the only difference. Our bench this year has players who need to play with Nash to be effective offensively (Gortat, Warrick and even Pietrus). No Barbosa to drive to the hoop. No Amundson to clean up the boards. No one who can create his own shot with Dragic struggling the way he has. The Suns left Frye in the game tonight after Nash went to the bench the first time, but he never got the ball in position to shoot. Dragic couldn't get him a good look.

How to fix this? We could move Lopez to the bench, but that won't improve it. He is even more useless without Nash than Gortat on the offensive end. We could move Carter, but he hasn't played well at all and I don't see why he would play any better off the bench. We could rest Nash earlier in the third and bring him in sooner in the fourth, but that won't change the fact that the starters will still have to undo the damage done by the bench. They'll just have more time to do it. We could hope that Dragic will rediscover his game. Or forget this all-reserve unit stuff and always have some starters on the court. But who? So many of our players depend on Nash to create opportunities for them.

Excellent post and it points to our biggest problem this year.

Steve

 

[desertdawg]

I think you must have skipped his last paragraph. Starting Gortat does not appear to be the answer. He plays most of his minutes alongside Nash anyway and unless you're suggesting that he match Nash minute for minute that's not going to change.

Last year we had JR, Amare, Leandro, Goran and Hill who were each capable of generating some offense for themselves and others. Grant doesn't seem to be able to do that as well this season, Goran is a shadow of the player he was last year and the other 3 are gone. We simply do not have anyone other than Nash that can consistently initiate offense. Well, we have Dowdell who can initiate something but sometimes it's offense and sometimes it's just offensive.

Steve

Name one team that doesn't start their best center when healthy. Last year was last year amigo. We need to get this club rolling and have Nash sitting with a coke and a friggin smile with 5 mins to go in the 4th because we already got the game locked up.

Every team has off nights, it's even harder to deal with the off nights when you start Lopez, it is the way it is. I am getting to the point to where I'd rather see Siler!

 

[jagu]

All the more reason to move Carter to the bench where he can be an offensive player that can be isolated. Plus playing against other bench players will give him an added advantage for his mentally retired self.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Name one team that doesn't start their best center when healthy. Last year was last year amigo. We need to get this club rolling and have Nash sitting with a coke and a friggin smile with 5 mins to go in the 4th because we already got the game locked up.

Every team has off nights, it's even harder to deal with the off nights when you start Lopez, it is the way it is. I am getting to the point to where I'd rather see Siler!

You keep missing the point. I DO want Gortat to start. I just don't think it will make much of a difference. Also, I know that Gentry has more information available to him than I do and since I see it as mostly a non-issue I'm willing to give it a little time. As I've said many times, if it were up to me I'd be starting Gortat and Lopez wouldn't even dress for games.

I have no good reason for Lopez starting. Maybe the coach actually believes what little Lopez gives us as a starter is worth it (hard to believe)? Maybe he believes that this season is a wash and getting Robin to return to form is worth the short term problems? Maybe he's under orders to try and build him up so that the team can trade him in the next week or so? Maybe Lopez kidnapped Gentry's dog and is holding him hostage? Maybe Gentry is a complete idiot? Maybe Gentry hates working for Sarver and is sabotaging the team so he can get fired?

But again, who cares, minutes is minutes and Marcin gets the majority of them and I don't buy the "we work too hard to come back in order to hold our lead late" excuse. I've seen us take the lead with Robin out there and we've still managed to find a way to let the other team back in the game late. I think our problem is our dependency on Nash and the fact he loses a little as the game wears on. He's still, by far, the best we have he's just not the same player tired as he is refreshed. I don't see how starting Gortat will change that. Maybe it will.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

yeah, but the entire threat is a bit misleading isn't it? It's not necessarily the bench that's the problem. It's the offense without Steve Nash in the game. That's because there are two players missing from this year's roster... Amare Stoudemire and Leandro Barbosa. Maybe somebody could check the numbers on this, but I always liked Amare out there with the bench. He was able to initiate offense and it meant a little less the horrible defensive combination of Nash/Amare. Barbosa had his problems, but he was very good at breaking down defenses as well. Right now when Nash sits there really isn't another player who can consistently break down the opposing defense.

I'm too lazy to look up numbers right now, but I do wonder if it would make more sense to use Carter off the bench and put Pietrus in the starting lineup. It's sad. He is probably the second most capable playmaker on the team.

Joe Mama

Hit it on the head as usual. Not nice to tease us with the occasional hit and run. The only reason Pete isn't starting is an obvious ego issue with Carter. If Carter were a team player, he'd be much more effective with the second group, as he really is the only player other than Nash that can create for others.

The biggest problem for the bench has been the regression of Goran, which is mystifying. After the playoffs last year, I was convinced he was ready to make the leap this year. Was I ever wrong. He's been flat out awful all year in all aspects of the game. Any talk of "point guard of the future" is long over. What a disappointment.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think a dose of Dowdell and Dragic in the backcourt together might liven-up the second unit. Dragic needs some kind of spark. Anyway they might be able run the second unit together until one seizes the position. It's at least worth a try when the Suns second unit stagnates. I don't see this as permanent fix.

 

[BC867]

I think a dose of Dowdell and Dragic in the backcourt together might liven-up the second unit.

I considered that too. But finding minutes for Dragic, if it takes minutes away from either Dudley or Pietrus (who have been our backups at Shooting Guard and Small Forward during this winning streak) and/or going back to moving a Small Forward to Power Forward is not the way to go.

I like our ten-man rotation, except, of course, with switching Gortat/Lopez at C and moving Dudley to starting 2-Guard.

Dragic might be worth a try at backup to Dudley, but that means either releasing Carter, moving him or banishing him to 11th man.

 

[Chaplin]

Well today or tomorrow is the day Vince can finally be traded. But unfortunately he won't be, at least not until Carmelo Anthony is traded. The deadline is a week from tomorrow, so we'll see what happens.

 

[elindholm]

If Carter were a team player, he'd be much more effective with the second group, as he really is the only player other than Nash that can create for others.

I see no evidence that Carter can create for others. He's averaging under 2 assists per game with the Suns. His drives to the basket usually result in wild shots or turnovers. To me, it looks like Carter's effort is there, but he just doesn't have the ability anymore. All he can really do is shoot threes, and if he makes a bunch, we call it a good game and wonder why he doesn't do more of it.

Actually, the Suns' overall ball movement is surprisingly poor. Nash averages 11.3 assists per game, and the entire rest of the team averages only 11.9. Only Rondo and Paul are responsible for a higher percentage of his team's total assists than Nash is. I think Gentry has simplified the offense in order to help the players focus on a more limited range of options, but the team as a whole is definitely less creative than it was even last season.

 

[Mainstreet]

I considered that too. But finding minutes for Dragic, if it takes minutes away from either Dudley or Pietrus (who have been our backups at Shooting Guard and Small Forward during this winning streak) and/or going back to moving a Small Forward to Power Forward is not the way to go.

That's the rub about playing Dowdell and Dragic together. However, I think it should at least be tried to see if it can ignite a spark from Dragic and getting the Suns second unit playing together. As I said, I don't view it as a fix but just something that needs to be tried to get Dragic going or see what happens.

I like our ten-man rotation, except, of course, with switching Gortat/Lopez at C and moving Dudley to starting 2-Guard.

I fear Lopez will totally disappear coming off the bench and, at least occasionally, he gives the Suns something. Gortat will still produce off the bench. I fear Gentry is afraid what might happen, chemistry wise, if he moves Carter to the bench. I think Dudley would make the better SG. I see Gentry as doing a very difficult juggling act.

Dragic might be worth a try at backup to Dudley, but that means either releasing Carter, moving him or banishing him to 11th man.

I'm not sure how releasing Carter would work as he is still owed 4M next season. I wish there was a trade option. He probably would be a very unhappy camper riding the bench.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm not sure how releasing Carter would work as he is still owed 4M next season. I wish there was a trade option. He probably would be a very unhappy camper riding the bench.

I don't believe that is accurate. His BUYOUT over the summer is 4M, he's actually still owed 18M next year. I don't believe the buyout is even possible until after this current year is over (end of June I believe). Releasing him is not an option because then we'd definitely be on the hook for all of next year's salary.

 

[elindholm]

Releasing him is not an option because then we'd definitely be on the hook for all of next year's salary.

That's correct, and any talk of releasing Carter is moot. But if the Suns don't want to play him, they can just not play him; there's no need to go through the whole grandiose ceremony of a "release." I really wouldn't be concerned about his effect on team chemistry. Right now, he looks to me like an engaged teammate, even when he can't throw it in the ocean and is playing only 20 minutes per game. The ability just isn't there. Nothing helps chemistry like winning, so if playing Carter less (or not at all) leads to more wins, then just do it.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't believe that is accurate. His BUYOUT over the summer is 4M, he's actually still owed 18M next year. I don't believe the buyout is even possible until after this current year is over (end of June I believe). Releasing him is not an option because then we'd definitely be on the hook for all of next year's salary.

That's what I meant, a 4M buyout over the summer. He does indeed need to be paid the remaining part of this season. Nobody is going to pay Carter the full amount for next season. The buyout further complicates the trade issue unless there is a way around it.

 

[BC867]

He probably would be a very unhappy camper riding the bench.

Addressing that point . . .

Is Carter a happy camper now, especially riding the bench every 4th quarter?

It has been reported that he mingles only with his Orlando trade partners Gortat and Pietrus (who have earned the responsibility of closing games).

If Carter can't perform as our Shooting Guard, isn't it more important to be concerned with the happy camper feelings of the entire team, rather than one disappointing ex-super star (who has no emotional investment in the team's future).

And if this causes him to be a cancer in the clubhouse and on the bench for the rest of the season, the front office will have to just deal with it. If they cannot, they shouldn't be in the front office.

 

[Chaplin]

That's what I meant, a 4M buyout over the summer. He does indeed need to be paid the remaining part of this season. Nobody is going to pay Carter the full amount for next season. The buyout further complicates the trade issue unless there is a way around it.

Not really. We include the max amount of cash allowed in a trade (3M), then the team that gets him would only be on the hook for a million bucks to free up 18M for next season. That's a pretty nice savings, whether its for another team or us.

Carter is essentially a 17M expiring contract. (18M - 1M for the buyout)

The real challenge is finding a team willing to get rid of that much money and whether we want to take what they offer. In this case, Carter may make too much for us to trade him. Sounds strange, but it is what it is.

 

[Mainstreet]

Not really. We include the max amount of cash allowed in a trade (3M), then the team that gets him would only be on the hook for a million bucks to free up 18M for next season. That's a pretty nice savings, whether its for another team or us.

Carter is essentially a 17M expiring contract. (18M - 1M for the buyout)

The real challenge is finding a team willing to get rid of that much money and whether we want to take what they offer. In this case, Carter may make too much for us to trade him. Sounds strange, but it is what it is.

There are some trade options explored at the following link:

http://sunstalk.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=906

 

[jibikao]

All the more reason to move Carter to the bench where he can be an offensive player that can be isolated. Plus playing against other bench players will give him an added advantage for his mentally retired self.

Definitely agree with this.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Addressing that point . . .

Is Carter a happy camper now, especially riding the bench every 4th quarter?

It has been reported that he mingles only with his Orlando trade partners Gortat and Pietrus (who have earned the responsibility of closing games).

If Carter can't perform as our Shooting Guard, isn't it more important to be concerned with the happy camper feelings of the entire team, rather than one disappointing ex-super star (who has no emotional investment in the team's future).

And if this causes him to be a cancer in the clubhouse and on the bench for the rest of the season, the front office will have to just deal with it. If they cannot, they shouldn't be in the front office.

When he first came here this seemed to be the case. However, I've seen him look very involved in our recent close games and he seems to be making an effort to be supportive of the guys on the court while he watches.

He seems to give inconsistent effort but I wonder if that isn't more out of frustration and confusion than anything else. The big problem is, he is the only guy that might be able to create for himself if he can recapture a bit of his game.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I see no evidence that Carter can create for others. He's averaging under 2 assists per game with the Suns. His drives to the basket usually result in wild shots or turnovers. To me, it looks like Carter's effort is there, but he just doesn't have the ability anymore. All he can really do is shoot threes, and if he makes a bunch, we call it a good game and wonder why he doesn't do more of it.

Actually, the Suns' overall ball movement is surprisingly poor. Nash averages 11.3 assists per game, and the entire rest of the team averages only 11.9. Only Rondo and Paul are responsible for a higher percentage of his team's total assists than Nash is. I think Gentry has simplified the offense in order to help the players focus on a more limited range of options, but the team as a whole is definitely less creative than it was even last season.

Oh, I'm certainly not saying that Carter is a great option for it, I'm just saying he's better at creating his own shot/creating for others than the rest of the horrible options. We have lots of competent role players on the bench who are adept at hitting open shots, but have little offensive aptitude after that.

I'm surprised that you're impressed with Carter's effort. I think it's hovered between disinterested and pathetic ever since he got here. He even made the comment the other day that he's "rededicating himself to basketball and the team". I can't imagine a statement that more accurately describes someone who is checked out. What a colossal waste of talent Vince is/was. That ultimately will be his legacy.