Anyone still wish...

[dreamcastrocks]

This is simply untrue. Amare is NOT the most doubled/tripled player in the league, and he is no where close. Neither of us have the numbers to back it up (I would welcome statistics saying the %of times a player is doubled/tripled), but teams rarely design their defense to stop Amare, they design their defense around limiting Nash. With finishers like Nash, Hill, Shaq, and even Bell and Barbosa, it is extremely difficult to double off of Amare and not pay for it in other forms.

Amare has 70% of his shots assisted, significantly higher than Dirk or Duncan (around 50%). Dirk Nowitzki IS the Mavs offense, and Duncan can create in the low post better than anyone since Shaq's prime. Nash creates offense for those around him, reflected by the fact that Nash has an assist ratio of 46.8% of his teammate's buckets.

http://82games.com/random28.htm

You cant expect us to take you seriously when you try to compare David West and Amare....

 

[ambchang_]

Now I know for sure that you are not objective. You must have something against Amare/Suns/Suns fans....something.

Not really. I think Amare is an absolutely devastating finisher, and reminds me a lot of Kemp before he got bloated.

Like I said earlier, Amare is just an absolute beast in terms of finishing, but he benefits a lot with Nash. The PF may not have better numbers than Amare if they played with Nash, but what I do know is that they put up good numbers without the benefit of playing with Nash or playing in the fastest tempo team in the league (along with GS), and they are proven to be able to create their own offense.

As a 2nd year player without Nash, Stoudemire put up 20.5 on 47.5%. Still very impressive numbers, but similar to what Jefferson, Boozer and Bosh are putting up this year. The following year, with Nash in the lineup, the numbers jumped to 26 on 55.9%, that is a huge jump in a year. Granted he was a young player, but most objective observer would say that most of that improvement is due to Nash joining the team.

Last year, in the 6 games that Stoudemire played in without Nash, he averaged 25.2 points on 50.5%. While the PPG is a huge jump from his average of 20ppg, he was putting up lower numbers earlier in the season when he was coming back from injury. What it DOES show is that he had a 7% drop in FG%, and these numbers are not that much different from the Boshes of the world.

In the one game this year without Nash, Stoudemire was 9/19 (47%) and scored 21 points. Yes, extremely small sample size, but it does illustrate that Amare is not as dominant as he is with Nash in the lineup (well, who is?)

 

[dreamcastrocks]

You cant expect us to take you seriously when you try to compare David West and Amare....

Quoted myself so you will read it again

 

[boisesuns]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbascoring&league=nba&sort=pts&season=2008

Here's some stats for you. Look at the top 10. Amare is #5. Right up there with GUARDS. He also shoots the best percentage from the floor of the top 10 players. Bosh is #10 in scoring, and Dirk is a 7ft Shooting Guard so it doesn't really compare. The numbers would be even higher if you look since the Shaq trade.

I would agree that duncan is a great offensive player. I don't think anyone would argue that. He has some moves that are unstoppable. I think Amare's improved shooting has made him one of the best scoring big men in the game. THIS year, Amare has an edge over those guys.

 

[ambchang_]

You cant expect us to take you seriously when you try to compare David West and Amare....

David West has a nice inside/outside game, is scoring 20.3ppg on a team that scores 100.5 ppg, amounting for 20% of the team's offense (vs. Stoudemire who scores 25.2 ppg on a team that scores 110.5ppg, for 23% of the team's offense), however, do keep in mind that Stoudemire has 70% of his FG assisted, while West has about 55%.

No, West is no where close to Stoudemire as a finisher, but two points is two points, I don't really care whether it is a dunk or a 18 foot jump shot.

Also, looking at it through the eyes of a Spurs fan, West absolutely petrifies me, and matches up very well with the Spurs. Perhaps that is why I rank him this highly. I always thought West is extremely underrated.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

David West has a nice inside/outside game, is scoring 20.3ppg on a team that scores 100.5 ppg, amounting for 20% of the team's offense (vs. Stoudemire who scores 25.2 ppg on a team that scores 110.5ppg, for 23% of the team's offense), however, do keep in mind that Stoudemire has 70% of his FG assisted, while West has about 55%.

No, West is no where close to Stoudemire as a finisher, but two points is two points, I don't really care whether it is a dunk or a 18 foot jump shot.

Also, looking at it through the eyes of a Spurs fan, West absolutely petrifies me, and matches up very well with the Spurs. Perhaps that is why I rank him this highly. I always thought West is extremely underrated.

So now two points is two points, unless you are a finisher like Amare right?

 

[ambchang_]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbascoring&league=nba&sort=pts&season=2008

Here's some stats for you. Look at the top 10. Amare is #5. Right up there with GUARDS. He also shoots the best percentage from the floor of the top 10 players. Bosh is #10 in scoring, and Dirk is a 7ft Shooting Guard so it doesn't really compare. The numbers would be even higher if you look since the Shaq trade.

I would agree that duncan is a great offensive player. I don't think anyone would argue that. He has some moves that are unstoppable. I think Amare's improved shooting has made him one of the best scoring big men in the game. THIS year, Amare has an edge over those guys.

I am aware of how well Amare score, and if PPG and FG% are the only metrics, then there would be no point in arguing. But do keep in mind about the Suns pace and the benefits of playing with a top-flight point guard. Remember Kenyon Martin when he played with Kidd? Or even Mikki Moore. Not saying that Stoudemire is as bad as those players, but it does illustrate that a great PG does wonders for a big man's offense.

No matter how Nowitzki plays, he is a PF. He just happens to have the face up game that would make SG envious.

 

[ambchang_]

So now two points is two points, unless you are a finisher like Amare right?

Again, Amare is a fantastic finisher, and I have no qualms with that. If you are saying points = great scorer, then why the debate of Lebron and Kobe being lesser scorers than Stoudemire in the first place? We can just look at the PPG rankings and put that accordingly.

Guess what? Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson are better scorers than Stoudemire by your definition.

Go ahead an ignore pace, how a player functions within an offense and the ability to create their own offense.

 

[nowagimp]

This is simply untrue. Amare is NOT the most doubled/tripled player in the league, and he is no where close. Neither of us have the numbers to back it up (I would welcome statistics saying the %of times a player is doubled/tripled), but teams rarely design their defense to stop Amare, they design their defense around limiting Nash. With finishers like Nash, Hill, Shaq, and even Bell and Barbosa, it is extremely difficult to double off of Amare and not pay for it in other forms.

Amare has 70% of his shots assisted, significantly higher than Dirk or Duncan (around 50%). Dirk Nowitzki IS the Mavs offense, and Duncan can create in the low post better than anyone since Shaq's prime. Nash creates offense for those around him, reflected by the fact that Nash has an assist ratio of 46.8% of his teammate's buckets.

http://82games.com/random28.htm

You really cant be helped here, if "Dirk is the Mavs offense", then I guess josh howard, scoring 29ppg over the last 10 games or so(20.2ppg for the year) is the invisible man who takes 0.4 less shots/game than Dirk. Dirk has led the mavs in scoring only 2x in the last 10 games.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedule?team=dal


so much for Dirk being the mavs offense. You are just blowing smoke with no facts, as usual. Objectivity is not your strong point is it ambchang? Apparently you play fantasy too much and not real ball enough to understand the concept of a dominant scorer.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Again, Amare is a fantastic finisher, and I have no qualms with that. If you are saying points = great scorer, then why the debate of Lebron and Kobe being lesser scorers than Stoudemire in the first place? We can just look at the PPG rankings and put that accordingly.

Guess what? Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson are better scorers than Stoudemire by your definition.

Go ahead an ignore pace, how a player functions within an offense and the ability to create their own offense.

Now you are just being silly. It was you that was comparing Amare to other PF's.

 

[nowagimp]

In the one game this year without Nash, Stoudemire was 9/19 (47%) and scored 21 points. Yes, extremely small sample size, but it does illustrate that Amare is not as dominant as he is with Nash in the lineup (well, who is?)

In one game last night chris paul scored 4 pts on 2-11 shooting, so I guess by your logic, he stink! This is why guys like you are irrelevant to any basketball discussion on this board, silly arguements like that! How would Davis West do without chris paul or Boozer without DWil? They all do worse as more defenders will be used to double them . Tim Duncan scores poorly against shaq for his career, what is wrong with tim, cant a PF outquick a 325lb center? Tim also does poorly against Ilgauskas, cant tim outquick a lead footed center? I guess not because he IS a center and cant outquick centers like a PF can.

 

[ambchang_]

You really cant be helped here, if "Dirk is the Mavs offense", then I guess josh howard, scoring 29ppg over the last 10 games or so(20.2ppg for the year) is the invisible man who takes 0.4 less shots/game than Dirk. Dirk has led the mavs in scoring only 2x in the last 10 games.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedule?team=dal


so much for Dirk being the mavs offense. You are just blowing smoke with no facts, as usual. Objectivity is not your strong point is it ambchang? Apparently you play fantasy too much and not real ball enough to understand the concept of a dominant scorer.

You mean the last 10 games in which Dirk missed 4.5 games?
You mean where Howard actually scoring 25ppg over the last 10 games (scoring in the 30's in 3 of the 4 games Dirk missed)
You mean a player who also takes 2.1 less FTs than Nowitzki?
Or the one who records 1.3 less assists?

Howard benefits from having the whole Mavs offense based around Nowitzki. Teams double Nowitzki, not Howard.

Guess what? Stoudemire scores way more than the next Sun, but he is not the Suns offense, Nash is.

 

[ambchang_]

Now you are just being silly. It was you that was comparing Amare to other PF's.

It was someone who said Amare is the best PF scorer that prompted the response.

So how do you evaluate a player being a scorer? PPG? PPM?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It was someone who said Amare is the best PF scorer that prompted the response.

So how do you evaluate a player being a scorer? PPG? PPM?

a combination of a lot of things.

 

[ambchang_]

In one game last night chris paul scored 4 pts on 2-11 shooting, so I guess by your logic, he stink! This is why guys like you are irrelevant to any basketball discussion on this board, silly arguements like that! How would Davis West do without chris paul or Boozer without DWil? They all do worse as more defenders will be used to double them . Tim Duncan scores poorly against shaq for his career, what is wrong with tim, cant a PF outquick a 325lb center? Tim also does poorly against Ilgauskas, cant tim outquick a lead footed center? I guess not because he IS a center and cant outquick centers like a PF can.

Please try to address the other 6 games where Nash missed as well, or the difference in Amare's number immediately before and after Nash joined.. And I already said that one game was an extremely small number.

Since you are too lazy to look it up, I will do it for you.
West without Paul last year: 16.4ppg on 43%, vs. 17.3 on 43.7% throughout the whole season.
As for Boozer, he hasn't played one game with Williams the last two years.

Tim Duncan averages 21.9 ppg on 12.2 rpg, along with 2.7 assts vs. Shaq in his career, which is around the same for his career of 21.6/11.8/3.1, so how is that playing poorly against him?

 

[ambchang_]

a combination of a lot of things.

such as .....

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Please try to address the other 6 games where Nash missed as well, or the difference in Amare's number immediately before and after Nash joined.. And I already said that one game was an extremely small number.

Since you are too lazy to look it up, I will do it for you.
West without Paul last year: 16.4ppg on 43%, vs. 17.3 on 43.7% throughout the whole season.
As for Boozer, he hasn't played one game with Williams the last two years.

Tim Duncan averages 21.9 ppg on 12.2 rpg, along with 2.7 assts vs. Shaq in his career, which is around the same for his career of 21.6/11.8/3.1, so how is that playing poorly against him?

wow, you and your stats. First you call someone out for only using a small sample size when bringing up Stats, and then you talk about ONE game from Amare....

Pot...kettle...black

 

[dreamcastrocks]

such as .....

FGA's, FG%, FTA's, FT%, points in the paint, amount of moves available in their game....

the list goes on and on.

 

[ambchang_]

wow, you and your stats. First you call someone out for only using a small sample size when bringing up Stats, and then you talk about ONE game from Amare....

Pot...kettle...black

Well, if people didn't really cut out most of my post and make it out like I am talking about one game .....

Not really. I think Amare is an absolutely devastating finisher, and reminds me a lot of Kemp before he got bloated.

Like I said earlier, Amare is just an absolute beast in terms of finishing, but he benefits a lot with Nash. The PF may not have better numbers than Amare if they played with Nash, but what I do know is that they put up good numbers without the benefit of playing with Nash or playing in the fastest tempo team in the league (along with GS), and they are proven to be able to create their own offense.

As a 2nd year player without Nash, Stoudemire put up 20.5 on 47.5%. Still very impressive numbers, but similar to what Jefferson, Boozer and Bosh are putting up this year. The following year, with Nash in the lineup, the numbers jumped to 26 on 55.9%, that is a huge jump in a year. Granted he was a young player, but most objective observer would say that most of that improvement is due to Nash joining the team.

Last year, in the 6 games that Stoudemire played in without Nash, he averaged 25.2 points on 50.5%. While the PPG is a huge jump from his average of 20ppg, he was putting up lower numbers earlier in the season when he was coming back from injury. What it DOES show is that he had a 7% drop in FG%, and these numbers are not that much different from the Boshes of the world.

In the one game this year without Nash, Stoudemire was 9/19 (47%) and scored 21 points. Yes, extremely small sample size, but it does illustrate that Amare is not as dominant as he is with Nash in the lineup (well, who is?)

It would help that people actually read the whole thread, instead of taking things out of context. Also, where have I made fun of people putting out a small sample size? I really don't recall.

 

[nowagimp]

You mean the last 10 games in which Dirk missed 4.5 games?
You mean where Howard actually scoring 25ppg over the last 10 games (scoring in the 30's in 3 of the 4 games Dirk missed)
You mean a player who also takes 2.1 less FTs than Nowitzki?
Or the one who records 1.3 less assists?

Howard benefits from having the whole Mavs offense based around Nowitzki. Teams double Nowitzki, not Howard.

Guess what? Stoudemire scores way more than the next Sun, but he is not the Suns offense, Nash is.

Howard has led the mavs in scoring 24 times this year, Terry 11 times, stack a few, DHarris a few. Guessing that Howards 20.2 ppg including 30ppg when dirk is out is due to doubling dirk(remember he was out!) doesnt even have a consistent flow of logic. Howard benefits from dirk being doubled, but scores more when dirk is out, go figure. Josh Howard is far quicker off the dribble and a better finisher than Dirk, he can create his own shot, doesnt need dirk to do that for him.

Before Kidd the mavs had the lowest asst/game of any winning NBA team, meaning that they are all one-on-one guys who can create their own shot on iso plays(averys favorite offense), they dont need Dirk to score(to win sure, but not to score). Terry and Howard are better scorers than the suns 2nd, and 3rd leading scorers, they are better at creating their own shot. All these facts fly in the face of your guesses. Perhaps you can guess again and get it right sooner or later.

 

[ambchang_]

Howard has led the mavs in scoring 24 times this year, Terry 11 times, stack a few, DHarris a few. Guessing that Howards 20.2 ppg including 30ppg when dirk is out is due to doubling dirk(remember he was out!) doesnt even have a consistent flow of logic. Howard benefits from dirk being doubled, but scores more when dirk is out, go figure. Josh Howard is far quicker off the dribble and a better finisher than Dirk, he can create his own shot, doesnt need dirk to do that for him.

Before Kidd the mavs had the lowest asst/game of any winning NBA team, meaning that they are all one-on-one guys who can create their own shot on iso plays(averys favorite offense), they dont need Dirk to score(to win sure, but not to score). Terry and Howard are better scorers than the suns 2nd, and 3rd leading scorers, they are better at creating their own shot. All these facts fly in the face of your guesses. Perhaps you can guess again and get it right sooner or later.

I agree with you that the Mavs are a team that runs a lot of iso plays, and that me stating that Dirk is the Mavs offense is inaccurate. However, Nowitzki does create his offense much better than Stoudemire. He is also more central to the Mavs offense than Stoudemire is to the Suns (or Howard is to the Mavs).

 

[Covert Rain]

FGA's, FG%, FTA's, FT%, points in the paint, amount of moves available in their game....

the list goes on and on.

Dream why bother?

Dirk is not a better PF then Amare when all is said and done. Leave it at that.

 

[PHX 32]

Amb, your arguments =



Please think twice before voicing your NBA ignorance on our forums. Thanks.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Dream why bother?

Dirk is not a better PF then Amare when all is said and done. Leave it at that.

I get the energy to argue things like this in short spurts.. after that, its just blah.

Maybe in a few days I could go some more. I had to take a break from the Spurs thread a few times....

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

two points is two points, but assists to amare make his effectiveness irrelevant.

Why do the mods let this subhuman dialog continue?