Are Our players besides Nash overrated?

[cardsunsfan]

We're going to have three guys probably in the allstar game and people argue that Joe Johnson is pretty close to being at that level and Q is probably going to break almost all 3 point records at the end of the season which people find impressive. Amare is considered a monster who will dominate the game someday and many argue Marion is the best small forward in the game.

The thing is though if Nash goes down we seem to fall apart. We have a hard time beating sub 500 teams let alone the good teams! If our players are so good then why did that happen this yr and last? Having three allstars in the West (they would be in the east too) and JJ being very good should mean that we could handle not having Nash and still be a top four team but it doesn't look like we would be. Why is that?

 

[Skkorpion]

Answer: no. Nash, Amare, and Marion each individually would be immediate starters on maybe 20 to 22 of the league's teams if we traded them.

Q and Joe Johnson are complimentary players only and IMO we tend to overrate those two. they are good but not great players who fit our team and scheme nicely.

 

[carey]

I think the problem lies in their decision making ability. Once Nash is taken out of the game the entire team struggles to make good decisions with the ball. Things have looked better of late though. Lately we have actually been able to go on runs with Nash on the bench which we couldn't do before. I think we'd still struggle with Nash out for a long period of time, but I don't think it would be as bad as that 7 game skid.

 

[myrondizzo]

i think the big reason we fell apart is that nash is such a key part of our offense that when he went down we had to play a completly different style and its hard to switch modes like that without getting some practice time in between. they are a young team and are only going to get better with time. but the five game skid was kinda scary cuz i showed how much they still have to learn.

 

[scotsman13]

the thing to remember about the suns is they dont run set plays. our offense is based off the fact of the point guard ability to read the defense and make a choose about where to go with the ball and who it should go to. nash has this ability. he did it for years in dallas and now in a more open system is even doing a better job of it. the problem is when you bring in players who arent as schooled or experanced at making those chooses as what nash is. joe johnson is a great player who can do a little of everything and barbosa is a player who has a lot of tools but when you put them in this offense and expect them to run the show it is understandable that they dont run it as well as nash. given time at the point on another team barbs or jj could be an all star at the point in time in a set offense. in this offense in 2 to 3 years i am sure they both could run it well but not as close as to what we do. heck of all of the point guard in the nba i can only name one that i think can run this offense right now, nash. kidd is a great passer but not a pick and roll player. marbury doesnt want to run and he isnt as good at making others better, davis, francis, bibby, miller (see marbury).

 

[carey]

I think we'd still struggle with Nash out for a long period of time, but I don't think it would be as bad as that 7 game skid.

But the five game skid was kinda scary cuz i showed how much they still have to learn.

We're both wrong, it was a 6 game skid.

 

[JPlay]

Nash is great, but you have to remember that we didn't have a backup Point Guard for most of those games, plus we were playing a majority of those of the road against good competition.

You also have to keep in mind that the Suns are the youngest team in the league and it's hard to win on the road without veteran leadership.

As soon as we get Barbosa up to speed and Amare becomes more of a leader, this will be less and less of an issue.

 

[myrondizzo]

We're both wrong, it was a 6 game skid.

i dont count the spurs game as part of the skidd since nash was back and we played a good game

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

i dont count the spurs game as part of the skidd since nash was back and we played a good game

Well then, by that logic it was a 4 game skid since Nash played in the Utah game.

 

[myrondizzo]

Well then, by that logic it was a 4 game skid since Nash played in the Utah game.

yeah but it was far from a good game

 

[George O'Brien]

Well then, by that logic it was a 4 game skid since Nash played in the Utah game.

Maybe it was only six, but it seemed like more.

Even with Nash, I remain amazed at how well this team has played. Nash was on the Mavericks last season and they were only 52-30 for the season.

 

[cly2tw]

Bastketball is a team sport. What's does the individual rating mean anyway?

Nash is more valuable to this Suns' team than he was to his former Mavs'. But he is more or less the same player regarding his skills. Should he be rated the same way as the consequence of the latter or rated better now due to the former.

If we agree on the principle of "same skills = same rating", then everybody on the Suns team is indeed overrated since they will unlikely have the same great stats on most other teams, including Nash. For example, if I were the Spurs I'd much rather have Manu than JoeJ even though the latter probably has the better individual stats than the former. In this sense, the Suns as a team is literally better than the sum of the individual players on the team. That's one reason why BC should win his award this year, for building this team the way it is.

 

[Gaddabout]

I had the luxury of testdriving my boss' restored Ferrari the other day. I realized it's a scary and powerful beast, but I'm more likely to drive it off the road than win a race. The Suns were like a Ferrari without a driver, and Team Colangelo (probably a real F-1 team in Italy) hired the best driver in the business to drive. They just need to find another driver behind Nash who can keep the car on the road without braking around the curves!

Seriously, Nash is essentially the head coach. He "calls the plays" and decides who's going to score. That the players struggle when he's not in is not surprising, because it's literally taking the brains behind the operations out of action. The only way D'Antoni is going to get what he wants out PGs not named Nash is to suit up and do it himself (he might still be capable, actually).

 

[sunsfn]

I think that at times people tend to underestimate the players on the team they support. I have been a supporter of JJ when he became a sun and saw him play a couple games. I thought this guy had a chance to be an all star in a couple years and can play 4 positions on the team, and be a real team player.

JJ--Born June 1981-23 years old --16.1 P. / 5.2 R. / 3.4 A.

Manu--Born July 1977 27 Years old--15.9 P. / 4.4 R. / 4.0 A.

There is no doubt Ginoboli is an excellent player, and is in the prime of his career, and is probably desired by most teams.
However, JJ is 4 years younger and has not reached his prime yet and his stats are about the same as Ginobolis.

Some of you think he is a complimentery player, but I believe that this team does not function as well as it does without him on the court. He plays more minutes than any other sun, and it is obvious that D'Antoni wants him on the court as much time as he can keep him there.
Now, that may be a complimentery player to some of you, but just think about how much time he plays and what he accomplishes, he is much more than that, and I believe has an excellent chance of being an all star next year, and the only way he is not, is because the suns may have 3 of them already on the team for next year.

Q is the only guy on this starting five that may never be an all star, and that is because he just does not shoot for a high percentage and is somewhat selfish with the ball, and weak D. When Q is on, he should shoot whenever he is open, but when he is not on, he should pass the ball or get closer to shoot. If and when he does that he will be an improved player, but probably not an all star.

Now, Marion, Nash, & Amare are all stars and we have a great team in the making with a couple additions such as a backup point guard (if Barbosa can not be that) and the addition of another big man to bang in the middle.

 

[Amare32]

It all comes down to play making and forgive me if i'm wrong but wasn't barbosa out during our losing streak when Steve was hurt? we depend on the running game and when that isn't there we can struggle in the halfcourt set

 

[devilalum]

You also have to keep in mind that the Suns are the youngest team in the league and it's hard to win on the road without veteran leadership.

I was thinking that we lost that honor with the Jackson trade. We traded 3 really young guys for one 34 year old guy. We're still really young but I bet we're not the youngest anymore.

 

[PhxGametime]

Well usually I'd read all the posts first and comment but I'd like to read as much as I can after


IMO being that Suns don't run plays and Nash controls the offense, no back-up PG that can innitiate (sp) the offense until Barbosa learns the language and more point skills, and the Suns played 8 games in 11 days at least IMO. That's 4 back-to-back games with 1 day off until the very next series - IMO that had a little to do with it as well. I forgot how many of those were road games...


Barbosa was out a few of those games as well?