Are some coaches just lucky

[Billythekid]

Reading a thread below talking about Westphal, and reading an article on Phil Jackson i was just thinking what seperates a good or great coach from just a lucky coach.

Is manages ego's a good coach? Everyone who says Westphal was a good coach, why was he a good coach? He had Charles, KJ, Majerle, Dumas, Chambers, Cebellos, Miller, West, Ainge. I'm betting anyone with a basketball brain could've got those guys winning.
I'm not saying Westphal was bad though

Is Phil Jackson a good coach? Obviously he is because he has won, but is he a great coach?

On two occasions he's taken over teams when the star players on those respective rosters were just coming together, maturing, and becoming unified with one goal of winning. Both had suffered heart breaking loses in playoffs. They were almost at the peak. Everyone says Del Harris couldn't get the Laker to win, but i think they were too young. Similar to Doug Collins in Chicago before Phil took over. He's picked up ripe squads hungry to win in both cities.

The coach draws up the plays and some have the best players to execute them... and some.

I don't know what the answers are here but i read a recent article saying Phil Jackson was the luckiest coach the league has ever seen and it got me thinking.

In the past coaches have won coach of the year awards and in the next season or two they've been fired. Del Harris comes to mind.

What do you guys think?

Phil Jackson? How good is he? Is he great? Could your grandmother coach a team of superstars and allstars?
Is a case of right time right place? Westphal i feel falls into that. He was good IMO. Seemed to motive the players, but most coaches could'be gotten the same results i feel, maybe better. Could they have?

 

[George O'Brien]

Generally the top coaches are ones that win with different teams and different personnel. Great coaches are ones that win with inferior personnel.

No one knew that Jerry Sloan was a grea coach as long as Malone and Stockton played. But the fact that he has kept the team competative with only one upper level player is a major testiment to his skills. Who knew?

Pat Riley had great success in LA and NY; but he was pretty average when the Heat lacked strong personnel. Is he a great coach or just a very good one who had some great players. I'm guessing the latter.

 

[capologist]

Jackson has won nine titles in thirteen seasons as a head coach. Even stipulating that he had championship-caliber talent for ten of those thirteen seasons, that’s a pretty incredible record.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by capologist
Jackson has won nine titles in thirteen seasons as a head coach. Even stipulating that he had championship-caliber talent for ten of those thirteen seasons, that’s a pretty incredible record.

No doubt. But I think the job Jerry Sloan has done this year is one of the great coaching performances in memory. Once Jackson proves he can win with inferior personnel, then I will put him at the top.

 

[capologist]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
No doubt. But I think the job Jerry Sloan has done this year is one of the great coaching performances in memory. Once Jackson proves he can win with inferior personnel, then I will put him at the top.

In 1993, Michael Jordan left basketball (for the first of at least three times). The Bulls signed Pete Myers, who replaced His Airness in the starting lineup.

With Myers standing in for Jordan, the Bulls went 55-27, third-best record in the East and tied for sixth-best in the league. They took the eventual EC Champion New York Knicks to the full seven games, and would probably have won that series if not for a very controversial “phantom” foul at the end of Game 5.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by capologist
In 1993, Michael Jordan left basketball (for the first of at least three times). The Bulls signed Pete Myers, who replaced His Airness in the starting lineup.

With Myers standing in for Jordan, the Bulls went 55-27, third-best record in the East and tied for sixth-best in the league. They took the eventual EC Champion New York Knicks to the full seven games, and would probably have won that series if not for a very controversial “phantom” foul at the end of Game 5.

A good point, although they still had a guy named Pippen.

One of the strangest aspects of coaching is how Lenny Wilkens can be fired from the Raptors and be replaced by Kevin O'Neill and Toronto plays better. Then Wilkens gets signed by the Knicks and they play better. Did Wilkens get smarter in the time he was not coaching.

 

[capologist]

About the same time that Wilkens was hired, the Knicks did make one other minor change that just might have a little to do with the improvement.

 

[hcsilla]

Good thread.

BTW,I never thought that Wilkens is a good coach. I still don't.

 

[Errntknght]

Phil Jackson won titles with Luc Longley at center - that alone qualifies him as a great coach!

Phil almost stands alone as a coach who has a well defined plan and knows what players he needs to make it work. All of his teams have had key players who were not resounding successes elsewhere or were viewed as over the hill. Ron Harper, Rodman, BJ Armstrong, Wennington, Paxson, Cartwright besides Luc come to mind and I know there were several more. Sure he's had great players but wringing 9 titles out of them in 13 years shows he got the max out of his players.

One thing I've noticed about his players is that every sub goes on the floor knowing what he is supposed to do. That was also true of the Celtics teams under Red Auerbach but Red picked his players for their smarts while Phil seems to be able to take anyone and get them with the program. And it's not an easy program.

When Phil came to LA an awful lot of people thought he'd come acropper because he didn't have players that fit the triangle like the Bulls. No problemo - he and Tex adjusted the triangle to fit Shaq's game and rolled to the title the first year.

As far as Westfall is concerned he's a fair to middling coach but he'd have probably been a much better one if he had had to pay his dues as an assistant coach before being handed the head job. At the time, my feeling was that Colangelo was doing him a big disservice by elevating him too quickly - and I still think that's true. Larry Bird, who appeared to be coaching material his whole career, said at the end of his tenure in Indiana that if he could do it over again he'd work as an assistant for a few years before taking a head coaching job because he wasn't ready for many aspects of running a team.

 

[capologist]

Westphal was an assistant under Cotton for four years.