Arizona Cardinals' 2011 Roster V. 2.0

[RugbyMuffin]

PIPE DREAMING!!!!! Also it was discussed signing Matt Lyght and moving Levi to G, great ummm who is our RT, Keith is a turnstyle and injury prone. Before we start thinking who we will sign let's have a CBA and see who is AVAILIBLE.

So what is your plan ?

 

[AZCARDSFANATIC]

We should have drafted a tackle, but the powers that be think our OLine is fine even though they gave up 50 sacks last year, and we had the worst run offense YPG in the league. I know we don't run the ball, blah blah blah. Regrardless our Oline stinks. Good FA onlinemen are not faling off trees, if they are good teams keep them. So essentially we are screwed until we develop some. GREAT DRAFT THOUGH YA YUTZ'S.

 

[kerouac9]

On the other hand we saw what happened with Okeafor at the same point in his career. However, he didn't play for the Steelers so maybe the Cards won't be jettisoning Haggans and Porter, both 34, after all.

The problem we face on defense is that half the starters are over 30 and the other half are young 1-3 year players. The prime time 4-9 year guys just aren't there. There is no doubt in my mind why Kerry Rhodes who is in that age group was considered by many here our best defensive player.

I agree with all that, but we're not going to free-agency our way out of it. My hope is that Washington, Williams, and Schofield will earn their way into the starting lineups as the season goes on. There's a reason that you hear Whis talk about the "valuable playing time" that our younger players on the defense put in last year.

Okeafor's contract was up, and I don't think that he was one of Whis's guys in the lockerroom. I'm not sure he ever got over going on IR when he felt that he could rehab is torn pectoral. Haggans showed that he could do the job (it's just that many don't understand that his primary job isn't getting 11 sacks a year), and I trust him for another year while Acho learns the position.

I agree with you that we have a problem with few second-contract veterans on the defense, but there's really nothing that can be done with it than hope that the guys we do have grow up quickly. I'd love to see the Cards get Manny Lawson in here, but he's the top FA OLB this offseason, and I don't feel like there's heat at that particular position coming from the front office.

DRC is experienced enough. Calais Campbell is experienced enough. Rashad Johnson ought to be experienced enough. If someone thinks that the veteran leadership is missing from the unit at this point, I don't know why you would trust this coaching staff--who build pretty much the entire defense up to this point--to locate and acquire players to fill that hole.

 

[kerouac9]

2/07Brandon KeithTTaken off IR, knee

IR indicates a serious injury so hate to say this, INJURY PRONE.

It wasn't a knee injury, it was a muscle injury (tore his hamstring, IIRC), and he played the rest of that game where he suffered the injury.

Tough dude, and getting better when the injury set in.

 

[Duckjake]

We should have drafted a tackle, but the powers that be think our OLine is fine even though they gave up 50 sacks last year, and we had the worst run offense YPG in the league. I know we don't run the ball, blah blah blah. Regrardless our Oline stinks. Good FA onlinemen are not faling off trees, if they are good teams keep them. So essentially we are screwed until we develop some. GREAT DRAFT THOUGH YA YUTZ'S.

Only 236 times fewer than Kansas City last season. 730 fewer rushes than the combined total of the league leaders the last 3 seasons. 730!!!!!!! 243 fewer a year!

120 attempts a season below the league median (16th)

If we had run the ball as often as the Chiefs at our YPC we'd have been third in YPG.

Just thought I'd fill in the blah, blah, blah, blah, for you.

 

[AZCARDSFANATIC]

If we had run the ball as often as the Chiefs at our YPC we'd have been third in YPG.

Just thought I'd fill in the blah, blah, blah, blah, for you.

Oddly thought the YPG statement and the fact that I consider most who post here to be rather intelligent folk didn't think a FULL explaination was needed. Also we don't have a Olineman who could start for the Chiefs so that comparisom is worthless. Also Todd Haley used to be our OC and look he has a fantastic rushing offense now, so personel can make all the difference. In case you didn't know it Todd Haley is the HC of the Chiefs, just wanted to be sure I spelled it out for ya.

 

[john h]

First of all...as more and more time passes without any CBA progress...if and when free agency begins it looks very likely that the 2010 rules will apply, which means players like Deuce Lutui who head into their 6th year in the NFL will still be restricted and thus team tenders will apply.

The good news for the Cardinals in this scenario is that the following RFAs will likely be retained:

G Deuce Lutui
C Lyle Sendelin
WR Steve Breaston
NT Gabe Watson
DE Alan Branch

The not so good news is that the Cardinals would have to give up high draft picks to sign tendered players such as DE Ray Edwards, OLB/DE Charles Johnson, OLB/DE Mathias Kiwanuka, TE Zach Miller, TE Kevin Boss, etc.

Having done very little in the draft to upgrade the edge pass rush, if the 2010 rules apply, the Cardinals will not have very many reasonable choices or oppotunities to upgrade the edge rush in free agency.

Consider for a minute what current players the Cardinals could use in a 4 man rush---and when you do---the options are difficult to fathom. Ideally one would hope for a quartet of Acho, Dockett, Campbell and Schofield---however...having watched more and more tape of Sam Acho, it seems very clear to me that he is going to have a very difficult time providing pressure off the edge as a rookie.

At the Senior Bowl, for example, Acho made one great play on his first snap---upon the snap, LT Nate Solder expected Acho to rush the edge, so Solder fannned out. Instead, Acho made no first step and stayed stationary---and when he saw it was a pass, because Solder had fanned out he saw he could take an inside route to the QB Jake Locker. Acho fired the inside gap and stripped Locker of the football. It was a great play---but it would be the one and only great play he would make all day---in fact, he never got decent pressure on the QB the rest of the game.

Why?

Solder and then Anthony Castonzo played Acho inside out from that point forward, thus taking away the inside route to the QB and thereby forcing Acho to rush to the outside---and that's where he got stood up, stopped half way into his rush and stonewalled repeatedly. The thing is---Acho lacks the quick first step off the edge that the very good edge rushers need and rely on. Acho is a hard worker and is a determine athlete---so he will work hard to improve his skills---but it is going to take some time.

As for O'Brien Schofield...the question will be, can he be an effective edge rusher at RDE in the 4 man rush. We don't know the answer to this yet. However, the natural concern here is whether Schofield will get engulfed by the LTs in that role. In the 5 man front, Schofield, because of his quickness off the edge and because the angle to the QB is better, should be able to get consistent pressure...but from the standard RDE in a 4 man rush, the task will be much more challenging as he wil be facing long-armed LTs who are taller and 40-50 pounds heavier.

This leads us to Joey Porter. At this point, even though he is being over-paid, the Cardinals really have no choice but to retain him in the hope that he can be an effective edge rusher at RDE in the 4 man rush. I don't think it will be wise for them to demand a salary reduction because they will run the risk of losing him---and the remaining free agent options are sparse to say the least.

Clark Haggans will most likely remain the starter at SOLB, although it may be time for Will Davis to beat him out as the two down starter---but the Cardinals have to find a better option at LDE in the 4 man rush, as edge rushing is not one of Haggans' or Davis' strength.

Acho, as I avowed, will be diligent...but may not be able to be effective in the role this soon. When he builds up his overall strength, I believe he will be able to become an effective bull rusher---but this is not going to happen overnight.

Brandon Sharpe is the wild card. He is a natural pass rusher with a nice symmetry of upper and lower body strength---and when I watch him on tape he reminds me quite a bit of Jabaal Sheard the edge SOLB/DE who was picked at #37 by the Browns. I believe Sheard is NFL ready...so it is my greatest hope that Sharpe can fill that role.

Otherwise---the lack of pure talent on the edge will force new DC Ray Horton to rush five and sometimes six players from a variety of positions and angles.

The point is---the Cardinals still do not have a formidible 4 man rush.

In studying the small list of pass rushers who have more than 6 years of NFL experience, and thus cannot be tendered, only one player stands out to me and that is Shaun Ellis (6-5, 290, 33, 12, Tennessee) of the Jets. Ellis would be a good fit in the 34DE rotation and could be one answer at DE on the 4 man rush.

I also wonder if Darnell Dockett can manifest John Randle type versatility this year and side over to LDE in the 4 man rush. That would be a great option if Dockett can embrace the role.

Obviously the other most pressing need is at QB---and we have discussed all the options at length.

The best option, imo, is trading for Carson Palmer---and I think the Cardinals have a very good chance of acquiring him provided Mike Brown decides to trade him. With much uncertainty with regard to the Bengals' re-signing of RB Cedric Benson, were the Cardinals to offer Beanie Wells as part of the trade packege, this may give the Cardinals the inside track.

However, Mike Brown is, well, Mike Brown. He's about as stubborn an owner as there is and he may decide to string Palmer out and force him into returning or retiring (as he has avowed to do should there be no trade).'

This is where I am starting to shift my focus toward a player we habven't talked as much about, but one who, imo, makes more sense than Kevin Kolb or Kyle Oton.

After watching several tapes of Matt Flynn (6-2, 225, 25, 4, LSU) of the Packers---I came away thinking he is a great fit in Whiz's dink and dunk. What convinced me was Flynn's performance versus the Patriots this past season where he was 24/37 @ 64.9% for 251 yards and 3 TDs versus 1 interception.

Flynn had a ringside seat for the epic playoff game---Warner versus Rodgers---two years ago---so he knows how efficent and productive the Cardinals' offense can be when the QB is hot---

Flynn also is very familiar with his old Tiger teammate WR Early Doucet---and it sure would be nice to finally get a good year from him.

What I am not so sure of is whether the Packers would trade him to the Cardinals, perhaps out of fear of meeting the Cardinals in the playoffs again at some point.

But, the Packers realize as the Eagles and Broncos do that with one year remaining in their young QBs' contracts (Kolb, Orton and Flynn), that now is the time to get good value in return.

Other Acquisitions:

LT Matt Light (6-4, 305, 11, Purdue/Patriots). Exactly the LT type we need. This will allow the Cardinals to shift Levi Brown down to LG, where he could be dynamic).

G Reggie Wells (6-4, 312, 9, Clarion/Eagles). Good insurance in case Levi Brown struggles at guard. Reggie remains a good fit in the dink and dunk.

NT Chris Hoke (6-2, 305, 11, BYU/Steelers). Ideal backup NT who knows the defense inside and out.

SILB Nick Barnett (6-2, 236, 29, 9, Oregon St./Packers). With the Packers' re-sigining of A.J. Hawk, Barnett becomes available. Has struggled with injuries---but is good to go and would provide the inside quickness, strength and pop the defense needs.

34DE/DE Shaun Ellis (6-5, 290, 33, 12, Tennessee/Jets). His versaility and pass rushing quickness would be a major asset.

CB Ike Taylor (6-2, 195, 9, La.-Lafeyette/Steelers). Will be the QB of the secondary and would pave the way for the Cardinals to trade DRC.

Trades:

1A-RB Beanie Wells & the 2012 5th round pick to the Bengals for QB Carson Palmer.

or---

1B-The 2012 2nd round and 2013 5th round pick (conditional---could be a 4th if Flynn achieves certain performance levels) to the Packers for QB Matt Flynn.

2- CB Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie to the Texans for OLB/DE Brooks Reed, TE/HB James Casey, S Troy Nolan and the Texans'2012 3rd round pick.

Roster:

QB (3): Palmer (or Flynn), Skelton, Bartel (or Hall)
RB (3): Hightower, Williams, Stephens-Howling
FB (1): Sherman
WR (6): Fitzgerald, Breaston, Doucet, Roberts, Williams, Komar
TE (3): Housler, Casey, Dray
OL(9): Light, Brown, Sendlein, Lutui, Keith, Bridges, Wells, Hadnot, Pestock
NT (2): Williams, Hoke
DE (4): Dockett, Campbell, Ellis, Branch (or Iwebema)
ILB (4): Barnett, Washington, Lenon, Sturdivant (or Walker)
OLB (6): Haggans, Schofield, Porter, Reed, Acho, Davis (or Sharpe)
CB (5): Taylor, Peterson, Toler, Jefferson, Adams
S (4): Wilson, Rhodes, Johnson, Nolan
ST (3): Feely, Graham, Leach

PS (8): RB Alfonso Smith, WR DeMarco Sampson, G Zach Hurd, NT Ian Williams, LB Nicolas Bellore, LB Mark Herzlich, CB Marshay Green, S Joe Legefed.

Mitch: Do you think the Cards would be willing to pay Palmer $13.5 mil a year which is what I read he makes? He well may be worth it but will the Cards see it that way? Did we not sign Kurt for around $6-$7 mil a year and there still was a question as to whether he was worth it.

 

[john h]

Why the fascination with signing older guys?How much luck have the Cards had doing that.Its time to develop from the draft.No more overpaying for reputation not production.If you are going to sign FAs then pay more to get players who are young enough to contribute for several years....no more stopgap overpaid over the hill veterans who used to be good.

Remember a guy named Kurt (to old and injury proned) Warner?

 

[ARodg]

Remember a guy named Kurt (to old and injury proned) Warner?

Remember a guy named Joey Porter?

Old and over the top FAs aren't the answer to contending.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch: Do you think the Cards would be willing to pay Palmer $13.5 mil a year which is what I read he makes? He well may be worth it but will the Cards see it that way? Did we not sign Kurt for around $6-$7 mil a year and there still was a question as to whether he was worth it.

Great question, John.

Warner was set to make $11M last year (same as what the Cardinals paid him in 2009)---which the organization saved---that and about $20M more from the previous year.

So---one wouldn't think the price tag would be an issue, seeing as the Cardinals have the money.

However, we don't know whether the Cardinals are even interested in trading for Palmer---nor do we know what kind of a committment Palmer is willing to give to a team that trades for him.

Whiz said last week he wants a QB who will "be around for a while."

My guess is...if the Cardinals were to trade for Palmer they would want a 3-4 year commitment and a restructuring of his deal to make it what Warner's was: $11M per.

That's with the big IF...

I have a feeling that since we know the Cardinals have already inquired about Kolb and Orton that those are the two they are focused on---and both are young enough to "be around for a while."

Then, again, the question becomes what would Kolb or Orton's salary demands be?

Kolb has already indicated that he wants a top end multi-year deal. Risky business for a player of his limlited experience.

This is probably why the Cardinals inquired about Orton, who probably would agree to a more reasonable base salary as long as there are lucrative performance and playoff incentives attached.

Right now...I think Orton will be the choice.

Plus, trading for Orton should cost the Cardinals one 2nd or 3rd rounder...not a 1st or two 2nds (as John Clayton predicted today as the price for Kolb---2 2nds).

 

[Duckjake]

Oddly thought the YPG statement and the fact that I consider most who post here to be rather intelligent folk didn't think a FULL explaination was needed. Also we don't have a Olineman who could start for the Chiefs so that comparisom is worthless. Also Todd Haley used to be our OC and look he has a fanatstic rushing offense now, so personel can make all the difference. In case you didn't know it Todd Haley is the HC of the Chiefs, just wanted to be sure I spelled it out for ya.

LOL we finished dead last in rushing attempts and yards per game, almost 15 yards per game less in 2008, when Todd Haley was our OC.

comparisom is worthless. Also Todd Haley used to be our OC and look he has a fanatstic

So much for spelling it out for me.

 

[Mitch]

Prediction: What the Cardinals Will Do

My PREVIOUS roster on page 1 of this post is what I was hoping for---

But, knowing how the Cardinals operate...my hopes are unrealistic.

So---here's what I think will actually happen:

QB (3): Orton (2012 2nd rounder to Denver), Skelton, Bartel (or Hall)

RB (4): R. Williams, Hightower, Wells, Stephens-Howling

FB (1): Sherman

TE (3): Dray, Spach, Housler

OL (8): Brown, Wells, Sendlein, Lutui, Keith, Bridges, Hadnot, Claxton

WR (6): Fitzgerald, Breaston, Doucet, Roberts, S. Williams, Komar

NT (2): D. Williams, Hoke (or Robinson)

DE (4): Dockett, Campbell, Branch, Iwebema (or Carter)

ILB (4): Lenon, Washington, Togafau, Walker (or Sturdivant)

OLB (6): Haggans, Porter, Schofield, Davis, Acho, Roth (or Sharpe)

CB (5): Rodgers-Cromartie, Peterson, Toler, Jefferson, Adams

S (4): Wilson, Rhodes, Johnson, Ware (or Abdullah)

ST (3): Feely, Graham, Leach

That's it: 4 additions---

QB Kyle Orton (Broncos)
LG Reggie Wells (Eagles)
NT Chris Hoke (Steelers)
OLB Matt Roth (Browns)

However---the UCFA batch may be a factor---such as:

Herzlich---he makes this team in some capacity, if they sign him
Lefeged---he wins the #4 safety job

What about UFA CB Ike Taylor?---Horton and Townsend will make huge overtures for Taylor---but will be told that drafting Peterson #1 is enough spending the Cardinals wish to do at CB.

 

[Duckjake]

TE (3): Dray, Spach, Housler

God help us.

OL (8): Brown, Wells, Sendlein, Lutui, Keith, Bridges, Hadnot, Claxton

This is the second time I've seen a Wells mentioned in regards to our offensive line for 2011. Is Beanie moving to Guard? I thought the reason he didn't play much was because he wasn't a good blocker.

 

[AZCARDSFANATIC]

What about UFA CB Ike Taylor?---Horton and Townsend will make huge overtures for Taylor---but will be told that drafting Peterson #1 is enough spending the Cardinals wish to do at CB.

In regards to this I think Toler is just as good as Taylor, which means we sign a high priced FA to battle for the # 3 DB spot, that just ain't smart spending.

 

[Cards Czar]

Great question, John.

Warner was set to make $11M last year (same as what the Cardinals paid him in 2009)---which the organization saved---that and about $20M more from the previous year.

So---one wouldn't think the price tag would be an issue, seeing as the Cardinals have the money.

However, we don't know whether the Cardinals are even interested in trading for Palmer---nor do we know what kind of a committment Palmer is willing to give to a team that trades for him.

Whiz said last week he wants a QB who will "be around for a while."

My guess is...if the Cardinals were to trade for Palmer they would want a 3-4 year commitment and a restructuring of his deal to make it what Warner's was: $11M per.

That's with the big IF...

I have a feeling that since we know the Cardinals have already inquired about Kolb and Orton that those are the two they are focused on---and both are young enough to "be around for a while."

Then, again, the question becomes what would Kolb or Orton's salary demands be?

Kolb has already indicated that he wants a top end multi-year deal. Risky business for a player of his limlited experience.

This is probably why the Cardinals inquired about Orton, who probably would agree to a more reasonable base salary as long as there are lucrative performance and playoff incentives attached.

Right now...I think Orton will be the choice.

Plus, trading for Orton should cost the Cardinals one 2nd or 3rd rounder...not a 1st or two 2nds (as John Clayton predicted today as the price for Kolb---2 2nds).

If the Cards do trade for C. Palmer he is signed thru 2015.

 

[asuhoopsnut]

If the Cards do trade for C. Palmer he is signed thru 2015.

If they were to trade for Palmer, I would think that the Cardinals would have to re-structure Palmer's deal.

 

[Chopper0080]

In regards to this I think Toler is just as good as Taylor, which means we sign a high priced FA to battle for the # 3 DB spot, that just ain't smart spending.

How on Earth can you say that Greg Toler is just as good as Ike Taylor, when Ike Taylor has started 63 of the past 64 regular season games for a top defense in the NFL and Toler has started 13? Ike Taylor has had 60+ tackles over the past 4 seasons along with 3 sacks, 2 forced fumbles and 7 ints. Toler has 1 sack, 2 forced fumbles and 2 ints which are decent numbers but not nearly the productivity of Taylor. I like the potential of Toler as much as the next guy, but to say that he is just as good as Taylor is asinine. Ike Taylor would be a solid signing, and would upgrade this defenses pass coverage immensely.

 

[kerouac9]

How on Earth can you say that Greg Toler is just as good as Ike Taylor, when Ike Taylor has started 63 of the past 64 regular season games for a top defense in the NFL and Toler has started 13? Ike Taylor has had 60+ tackles over the past 4 seasons along with 3 sacks, 2 forced fumbles and 7 ints. Toler has 1 sack, 2 forced fumbles and 2 ints which are decent numbers but not nearly the productivity of Taylor. I like the potential of Toler as much as the next guy, but to say that he is just as good as Taylor is asinine. Ike Taylor would be a solid signing, and would upgrade this defenses pass coverage immensely.

Ike Taylor is okay, but he's a product of the pass rush in front of him. He's not much better than Bryant McFadden. Add in the fact that Toler would cost three times or more less than Ike Taylor and that Toler is like 10 years younger than Taylor, and you'll get the idea why he shouldn't be a priority.

 

[AZCARDSFANATIC]

How on Earth can you say that Greg Toler is just as good as Ike Taylor, when Ike Taylor has started 63 of the past 64 regular season games for a top defense in the NFL and Toler has started 13? Ike Taylor has had 60+ tackles over the past 4 seasons along with 3 sacks, 2 forced fumbles and 7 ints. Toler has 1 sack, 2 forced fumbles and 2 ints which are decent numbers but not nearly the productivity of Taylor. I like the potential of Toler as much as the next guy, but to say that he is just as good as Taylor is asinine. Ike Taylor would be a solid signing, and would upgrade this defenses pass coverage immensely.

Taylors stats you quote are for ten years Tolder is for one season. If you take Tolers stats for 10 years, he eats Taylor for lunch. I never considered Toler a liability last year and he had nothing that resembled a pass rush. The Steelers have the best LBackers in the game.

 

[Chopper0080]

Taylors stats you quote are for ten years Tolder is for one season. If you take Tolers stats for 10 years, he eats Taylor for lunch. I never considered Toler a liability last year and he had nothing that resembled a pass rush. The Steelers have the best LBackers in the game.

Those stats are from the past 4 seasons...try again. And as far as his stats being a product of his playing for the Steelers, how does that hold water? He is a solid and consistent CB on any team that runs the 3-4 zone blitz defensive scheme. He isn't Champ Bailey or Nhamdi or Revis, but he is for more consistent that any CB that we have on our roster. Sometimes being good on a good team is a product on being a good player.

 

[kerouac9]

Those stats are from the past 4 seasons...try again. And as far as his stats being a product of his playing for the Steelers, how does that hold water? He is a solid and consistent CB on any team that runs the 3-4 zone blitz defensive scheme. He isn't Champ Bailey or Nhamdi or Revis, but he is for more consistent that any CB that we have on our roster. Sometimes being good on a good team is a product on being a good player.

Maybe he only looks consistent because he's had better coaching and a better pass rush in front of him. Perhaps if he didn't have to cover for 5 seconds or more every passing down, Toler would be more consistent as a cover corner, as well.

Seriously, anyone who says that the Pittsburgh pass rush made Ike Taylor look much much much better than his talent level didn't see much of Bryant McFadden when he was here.

 

[Chopper0080]

Maybe he only looks consistent because he's had better coaching and a better pass rush in front of him. Perhaps if he didn't have to cover for 5 seconds or more every passing down, Toler would be more consistent as a cover corner, as well.

Seriously, anyone who says that the Pittsburgh pass rush made Ike Taylor look much much much better than his talent level didn't see much of Bryant McFadden when he was here.

There is a reason that the Steelers let McFadden go and not Ike Taylor. Toler might be able to develop into a similar type of player down the line, but right now Ike Taylor is substantially better.

 

[joeshmo]

There is a reason that the Steelers let McFadden go and not Ike Taylor.

There is a reason, one was under contract the other one was not. Then felt the need to trade us to get him back. Now McFadden will be a Steeler in 2011 and Ike most likely will not.