BW52
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I hope the team is thinking ahead a bit.I really hope ownership has enough patience to do things the right way and not go for the expensive risky quick fix.
Arizona Cardinals' 2011 Roster V. 2.0
- Thread starter Mitch
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I hope the team is thinking ahead a bit.I really hope ownership has enough patience to do things the right way and not go for the expensive risky quick fix.
They're not though, every indication is that this team is in full speed ahead win now mode.
I think that's the stupidest strategy ever but that's the direction they're headed.
A team building for the future doesn't draft a running back in the 2nd round when there are already three on the roster.
A team building for the future doesn't spend a 3rd round pick on a TE when they rarely utilize the TE.
That's the same thing that the Packers did, the difference is that the Packers are in a completely different phase of team building. This draft was a typical draft by a team that thinks its a contender. If the Cardinals think they're contenders they're going to be in a world of hurt.
OP
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Mitch
Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Good insightful post, Paul!
I like all of the following choices you made: Light, Blaylock, Howard, Lutrus, Herzlich and Lefeged....great calls!
Re: Marc Bulger. I am not so sure the Cardinals are all that interested in him anymore. The coaches wanted him in May last year---but that was when there were no other QB options left and they were starting to get nervous about ML and DA.
The fact that the Cardinals have made inquiries about Kevin Kolb and Kyle Orton may indicate that they want a younger, more long-term option. Maybe they are just doing due diligence, but I think the interest is more than legit.
Whiz's recent remarks corroborate this notion---as he has stated that (a) he wants "gym rat leaders at QB" and (b) he wants someone who will be around for a while.
Based on this criteria, I think the Cardinals' top targets are Kolb, Orton, and possibly Matt Flynn. The Cardinals seem prepared to give up a high 2012 draft pick---and are also prepared to offer a long-term contract to the new QB.
Of these three, I believe that Matt Flynn the best because I think he fits our system very well. He is a timing passer, who throws very accurately on short and intermediate routes. He lacks the rocket arm---but then again so did Kurt Warner.
Interesting too that Kurt Warner no longer touts Bulger as being the best option for the Cardinals---he now is touting Carson Palmer.
And if Palmer can convince Whiz that he plans to play another 3-4 years---I think he may become the frontrunner.
Thus...my guess at this point is:
1-Palmer* (provided he gives at least a 3 year commitment)
2-Orton
3-Kolb
4-Flynn* (who could jump to #1 or #2 in the next few weeks)
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Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
If you're against getting Kolb because he isn't proven, bringing in Flynn IMHO is pure lunacy. He has one good start in the NFL and otherwise has been a total scrub. And trading a 2nd rounder to get him? Absolutely insane. Mitch, you're having one of those moments again that I mentioned in the Patrick Peterson thread.
What I would do, and I think it's more in line with what the team will do:
Quarterback:
1) Kevin Kolb. The reason he is the hot prospect right now is because he's young, has a great mental/physical makeup, and is an extremely hungry player. Kolb's mentality would fit perfectly with Whisenhunt; he's a hardworker, he's vocal and teammates rally around him. The talk of the price to acquire him is overblown, he should be available for less than a first rounder if the trade market is what I judge it to be. I would start with the package the Texans gave for Schaub and if the Eagles wanted more, I'd move on to option number two.
2) Kyle Orton. This is Mr. Underrated. Sure he's had some terrible games, but so does every QB for the most part. If Orton was in the NFC West he would be the best starter in the Division, and I don't think that's stretching reality at all. Sure Bradford will surpass him, but this year Orton would, barring injury, win the NFC West for the Cardinals. If you go the Orton route, he's the stopgap option while you continue to develop Skelton or draft a guy later.
3) Marc Bulger. This is an example of scraping the bottom of the barrel and banking on a has-been turning it around like Warner did. My problem with this idea is that Warner was extremely tough, while Bulger IMO is only average in this department. If we had a great offensive line, this would make sense but unfortunately Bulger will get annihilated behind the current Cardinals offensive line.
I think the Cardinals are looking at option #1 and will trade a 2012 and 2013 2nd rounder plus and 2012 3rd rounder. If Kolb is even a decent starter this is a good trade and Kolb has already proven in his limited appearances.
Offensive Line:
I like to stay grounded when predicting Free Agent moves that the team will make and unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any major moves here since all indicators point to the staff being comfortable with the starters we have already. I'm not too worried about losing any of the starters (Sendlein, Lutui, Keith) and I think they'll improve with better Quarterback Play.
If I were to address the Offensive Line, I'd make these moves:
1) Jammal Brown. He is unlikely to resign with the Redskins since he wants to play LT and the Redskins are set with Williams as their starter. Brown is still relatively young (28) and has had extensive, quality starts at LT in the NFL. Matt Light would be the cheap option, but he doesn't really address the position for the next five seasons like Jammal Brown does.
2) Jared Gaither. He is in a similar position to Brown, but he is younger and has more upside. The problem is, Gaither missed most of last season to injury and is therefore a bigger question mark. The upside is that you bring a guy who can start for the next eight years who has the ability to shutdown speedrushers. Since we already have a guy (Levi Brown) who can at the least hold down the position and not completely embarrass himself, I would target Gaither, wine and dine him, and throw decent starting LT money at him.
Outside Linebacker:
Though the team has numbers at this position, the quality is severely lacking. Schofield looks like a decent prospect, but he is far from a sure thing. Joey Porter was a massive bust as a free agent, and other than providing 5 sacks, he was a negative in all aspects of the position. While Haggans wasn't as good a pass rusher, he was better than Porter in all other aspects and should still have a spot on the team for one more season. Will Davis is a decent backup/special teams guy but hasn't shown anything more. Sam Acho figures to have a bit of a transition, but he played all over the place at Texas (DE, DT, OLB) and is a nice developmental prospect Behind Haggans. While I would cut Porter and bring in a proven pass rusher, I think the team is ready to go with what we have here and develop the young guys.
Overall, I don't see the Cardinals making many moves this offseason, and in addition to the QB/LT moves that we could make, I see the team adding a backup swing C/G and a blocking TE-type. I think the fans are going to be pissed off, but I think that the team would be smart to give playing time to the young-ins (Peterson, Ryan Williams, Toler, Acho, Schofield, Roberts, Rashad Johnson, Washington, Dan Williams, Keith, DRC) and develop the team with players we already have. Look at both of the Super Bowl teams, neither have spent big in free agency and have instead developed their own talent.
Depth Chart:
QB: Kolb, Skelton, Bartel
RB: Ryan Williams, Wells, LSH, Hightower
FB: Anthony Sherman
WR: Fitzgerald, Breaston, Roberts, Williams, Sampson
TE: Jeff King (Shouts out to Rugby), Jim Dray, Rob Housler
OT: Jared Gaither, Keith, Levi Brown (Whis admits mistake)
OG: Hadnot, Lutui, David Baas (C/G swing)
C: Sendlein, Baas
DE: Campbell, Dockett, Carter, <bargain vet free agent>
NT: Dan Williams, <bargain vet free agent>
OLB: Porter, Schofield, Haggans, Davis, Acho
ILB: Washington, Lenon, Sturdivant, Walker
CB: Peterson, DRC, Toler, Adams, Green
S: Wilson, Rhodes, Johnson, <UDFA>
P: Graham
K: Feeley
This team would win the NFC West. While defense will still be an issue, the pass rush will improve marginally and Peterson will improve coverage. Schofield will wrestle away the starting job at WOLB and have 7 sacks, and Porter will add 5 since he won't have to play so many downs. Sturdivant will push Lenon into a backup role by midseason, and Acho will take over obvious passrushing downs from Haggans and will have 5 sacks.
Kolb will struggle at times, but will post a moderate QB rating, improving as the year progresses. Williams will platoon with a revitalized Wells and THT will hardly play. Roberts will play well enough to warrant starting consideration, and Housler will generate a few big plays in the passing game.
<Gulps down the Kool Aid, picks up the crack pipe>
What I would do, and I think it's more in line with what the team will do:
Quarterback:
1) Kevin Kolb. The reason he is the hot prospect right now is because he's young, has a great mental/physical makeup, and is an extremely hungry player. Kolb's mentality would fit perfectly with Whisenhunt; he's a hardworker, he's vocal and teammates rally around him. The talk of the price to acquire him is overblown, he should be available for less than a first rounder if the trade market is what I judge it to be. I would start with the package the Texans gave for Schaub and if the Eagles wanted more, I'd move on to option number two.
2) Kyle Orton. This is Mr. Underrated. Sure he's had some terrible games, but so does every QB for the most part. If Orton was in the NFC West he would be the best starter in the Division, and I don't think that's stretching reality at all. Sure Bradford will surpass him, but this year Orton would, barring injury, win the NFC West for the Cardinals. If you go the Orton route, he's the stopgap option while you continue to develop Skelton or draft a guy later.
3) Marc Bulger. This is an example of scraping the bottom of the barrel and banking on a has-been turning it around like Warner did. My problem with this idea is that Warner was extremely tough, while Bulger IMO is only average in this department. If we had a great offensive line, this would make sense but unfortunately Bulger will get annihilated behind the current Cardinals offensive line.
I think the Cardinals are looking at option #1 and will trade a 2012 and 2013 2nd rounder plus and 2012 3rd rounder. If Kolb is even a decent starter this is a good trade and Kolb has already proven in his limited appearances.
Offensive Line:
I like to stay grounded when predicting Free Agent moves that the team will make and unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any major moves here since all indicators point to the staff being comfortable with the starters we have already. I'm not too worried about losing any of the starters (Sendlein, Lutui, Keith) and I think they'll improve with better Quarterback Play.
If I were to address the Offensive Line, I'd make these moves:
1) Jammal Brown. He is unlikely to resign with the Redskins since he wants to play LT and the Redskins are set with Williams as their starter. Brown is still relatively young (28) and has had extensive, quality starts at LT in the NFL. Matt Light would be the cheap option, but he doesn't really address the position for the next five seasons like Jammal Brown does.
2) Jared Gaither. He is in a similar position to Brown, but he is younger and has more upside. The problem is, Gaither missed most of last season to injury and is therefore a bigger question mark. The upside is that you bring a guy who can start for the next eight years who has the ability to shutdown speedrushers. Since we already have a guy (Levi Brown) who can at the least hold down the position and not completely embarrass himself, I would target Gaither, wine and dine him, and throw decent starting LT money at him.
Outside Linebacker:
Though the team has numbers at this position, the quality is severely lacking. Schofield looks like a decent prospect, but he is far from a sure thing. Joey Porter was a massive bust as a free agent, and other than providing 5 sacks, he was a negative in all aspects of the position. While Haggans wasn't as good a pass rusher, he was better than Porter in all other aspects and should still have a spot on the team for one more season. Will Davis is a decent backup/special teams guy but hasn't shown anything more. Sam Acho figures to have a bit of a transition, but he played all over the place at Texas (DE, DT, OLB) and is a nice developmental prospect Behind Haggans. While I would cut Porter and bring in a proven pass rusher, I think the team is ready to go with what we have here and develop the young guys.
Overall, I don't see the Cardinals making many moves this offseason, and in addition to the QB/LT moves that we could make, I see the team adding a backup swing C/G and a blocking TE-type. I think the fans are going to be pissed off, but I think that the team would be smart to give playing time to the young-ins (Peterson, Ryan Williams, Toler, Acho, Schofield, Roberts, Rashad Johnson, Washington, Dan Williams, Keith, DRC) and develop the team with players we already have. Look at both of the Super Bowl teams, neither have spent big in free agency and have instead developed their own talent.
Depth Chart:
QB: Kolb, Skelton, Bartel
RB: Ryan Williams, Wells, LSH, Hightower
FB: Anthony Sherman
WR: Fitzgerald, Breaston, Roberts, Williams, Sampson
TE: Jeff King (Shouts out to Rugby), Jim Dray, Rob Housler
OT: Jared Gaither, Keith, Levi Brown (Whis admits mistake)
OG: Hadnot, Lutui, David Baas (C/G swing)
C: Sendlein, Baas
DE: Campbell, Dockett, Carter, <bargain vet free agent>
NT: Dan Williams, <bargain vet free agent>
OLB: Porter, Schofield, Haggans, Davis, Acho
ILB: Washington, Lenon, Sturdivant, Walker
CB: Peterson, DRC, Toler, Adams, Green
S: Wilson, Rhodes, Johnson, <UDFA>
P: Graham
K: Feeley
This team would win the NFC West. While defense will still be an issue, the pass rush will improve marginally and Peterson will improve coverage. Schofield will wrestle away the starting job at WOLB and have 7 sacks, and Porter will add 5 since he won't have to play so many downs. Sturdivant will push Lenon into a backup role by midseason, and Acho will take over obvious passrushing downs from Haggans and will have 5 sacks.
Kolb will struggle at times, but will post a moderate QB rating, improving as the year progresses. Williams will platoon with a revitalized Wells and THT will hardly play. Roberts will play well enough to warrant starting consideration, and Housler will generate a few big plays in the passing game.
<Gulps down the Kool Aid, picks up the crack pipe>
Cardiac
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I'm not excited about Flynn but I know very little about him.
As always thanks for the thought provoking post Mitch. I want us to get a TE, SILB, NT and starting O-lineman in FA. This would include re-signing all of our own except Gabe Watson.
Hayes won't be back at 5 mil. I don't know that both Porter and Haggans will be back, one or the other but not both.
Catfish
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Paul, If things go the way you would call them, I would be ecstatic. Good workup and reasonably priced I would think also.
lobo
ASFN Lifer
As usual Mitch a thoughtful array of thought in both posts...is it my imagination or what....i know we did not hear it from the dark suits but if dink and dunk is the order of the day, and it sure seems like it will be, what was the problem with ML?? I know I read it somewhere that was "all he could do" and if that appeared to be so, what was the hurry to sign (gulp) Anderson?? We will never agree on Kolb, but so what!!
LoyaltyisaCurse
IF AND WHEN HEALTHY...
Bolded for truth...ML was perfect for it...
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
I'm not advocating a veteran overhaul, but strategically placed veterans to start on the offensive line, along with veteran depth and role players along the three levels of the defense would do wonders to help shorten our young players learning curve. The only exception would be in regards to Ike Taylor, who I think would be a great addition to our secondary and would hedge our bets on the development of DRC, P Peterson and Greg Toler. I hate the idea of going in with just DRC, Peterson, and Toler only to see one get injured, one have a down year, and have our secondary stink like it did last year. I would much rather see Toler as a 4th CB that might have to play as the 3nd CB, than the 3rd CB who might have to be the 2nd CB ala last year. Taylor won't be that costly, and with his age, would except a short term deal. This would also give the Cardinals some leverage in the future negotiations with DRC. I hate how the Cardinals are always so weak at the negotiating table because of their lack of talent behind their starters.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
WTF? You're going to hang up on Early Doucet--a third round pick--in favor of a UDCFA who did nothing last year and a 7th round pick who I think is older than I am? I'm guessing we keep 6 WRs.
I like Gaither, but I'm not sure the coaching staff does. That said, are we sure that Jamaal Brown is good? I liked him when he played with the Saints, but he'll be on his third team in three seasons this year, right? Does that happen with good players?
I don't know if we keep both Matt Ware and Hamza Abdullah, but I think we bring back one of those guys for the 4th safety.
We had the oldest offensive line in the NFL last year! All we did was got rid of Faneca, and while that'll bring the average age down a little bit, Hadnot, Lutui, Sendlein, and Wells all have more than 50 NFL starts under their belts. If anything, we need more young talent along the offensive line.
Where are the YOUNG players on the defense? Good Christ, do you really think we need to get older? Defensive line: Campbell will be in his fourth year, Dockett will be in his eighth. Linebackers: Haggans and Porter have a combined 26 years NFL experience, and Paris Lenon is a 10th year player. In the secondary DRC has nearly 50 NFL games under his belt while Rhodes and Wilson combine for 18 years NFL experience.
If we need more veteran leadership on the defensive side of the ball, then we need new veterans. Because experience in the NFL is not the problem.
I thought to have gaither on my list of Free Agents, but he has a bad back and I do not like to sign older players with injuries that could become a problem. He would be a big upgrade, but I believe that Light would be a better player for the next couple of years until we up grade the LT position.
lobo
ASFN Lifer
I'll be honest..all I read was your QB analysis and as far as I was concerned you were dead on. Kolb is IMO clear cut best choice and is going to take as much as a Cutler type offer to get him...I really don't understand how some people consider him so pedestrian. I have seen a whole lot of him and undoubtedly has a terrific over all skill set. I just hope they have taken their eyes off Bulger and continue to focus on Kolb with Palmer/Orton in the family photo. Again people have short memories...Orton wins games.
Buckybird
Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
I totally agree K9.
This team needs some young playmakers on D...DWash & Shoefield have yet tp prove it & still have holes at ILB, we may have depth issues on the DLine if Branch, Kenny & Watson go & the secondary still has questions past the starters.
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Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
We have drafted our young play makers in Calais Campbell, Dan Williams, Daryl Washington, O'Brian Schofield, Sam Acho, DRC, Greg Toler, and Patrick Peterson. That makes 2 of 3 defensive linemen, 3 of 4 linebackers, and 2 of 4 defensive backs with the nickel back as well. Now we need the veteran players to help them set up, and I don't think those veterans are on this roster.
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
Carl Nicks, Justin Blalock, and Robert Gallery could be free agents this year and would be solid veteran additions in the prime of their careers. These are the types of veterans that we need to add on our offensive line.
Jammal Brown > Matt Light
I don't think 50 starts is any big deal for offensive linemen who can play 10 years or more. Faneca was in his 14th season and was 34 years old. Lomas Brown played 18 seasons and was selected to the pro bowl in his 12th season in 1996.
Levi Brown and Sendlein were only in their 4th season. Lutui his 5th. Keith his 3rd. I don't see how a line with a 26 year old, two 27 year olds, and a 28 year old needs an infusion of young talent. Better talent maybe but not just younger guys.
JeffGollin
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Acho looked good on another play when, in the 4Q, he refused to bite inside on a roll-out right, held outside contain and moved right up into the QB's face. (Unfortunately, he then got out-juked by the QB who got the pass off). What you have to hope is that Acho's problem on the play was more a matter of technique than lack of physical skill and, in fact, you could see the coaches going over the play with him on the sideline.
That said - I think Acho - due to his size and anchor-strength - will fit as a Left or SAM OLB or an ILB better than he would as a lights-out Right or WLB pass rushing specialist. (He lacks the quick first step and low-dip flexibility to consistently blow around the corner to attack the QB's blind side).
But he seems bright and coachable. How well he develops will reflect on the caliber of our LB coaching.
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kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
The 50 starts isn't that this is an aging unit; it's that they're all experienced veterans who should know the League at this point. I don't mean that these guys are wearing down, but I disagree that the OL is a young group that needs veterans to come in and do the job. I think the talent is there for this group to be above-average around the NFL. They're the most experienced unit on the team.
I think that if we're looking to add to the OL, we should be looking at continuing to develop young depth players. Bringing in more Jeremy Bridges/Oliver Ross types isn't going to get the OL any better.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
But Schofield and Acho at the very least aren't going to be starters when the season opens. Campbell is in his third year as a starter; I'm not sure that you can count a guy who has 30 career starts and has played in 47 career NFL games as green as Sam Acho.
So my point still stands; the defensive unit is filled with veteran players and leadership. At each level there will be one young regular starter who's surrounded by veterans. Just because you don't want Clark Haggans or Joey Porter on the roster doesn't mean that they're not there, and that they won't probably be starting.
AZCARDSFANATIC
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PIPE DREAMING!!!!! Also it was discussed signing Matt Lyght and moving Levi to G, great ummm who is our RT, Keith is a turnstyle and injury prone. Before we start thinking who we will sign let's have a CBA and see who is AVAILIBLE.
On the other hand we saw what happened with Okeafor at the same point in his career. However, he didn't play for the Steelers so maybe the Cards won't be jettisoning Haggans and Porter, both 34, after all.
The problem we face on defense is that half the starters are over 30 and the other half are young 1-3 year players. The prime time 4-9 year guys just aren't there. There is no doubt in my mind why Kerry Rhodes who is in that age group was considered by many here our best defensive player.
ASUCHRIS
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Keith is a first year starter who improved dramatically as the year went on. He has far more potential than Levi at this point. Further, injury prone? Based on what, the small sample size of last year? Even if true, he's certainly tough, he played an entire game with a broken leg.
AZCARDSFANATIC
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2/07Brandon KeithTTaken off IR, knee
IR indicates a serious injury so hate to say this, INJURY PRONE.
RugbyMuffin
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But, it has been one year.
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