Arizona Cardinals' QBs Present and Future

[Mitch]

What a treat this season has been thus far! I am so excited about the present and future of this team, the coaches, the administrators and the ownership! I have to pinch myself when I think that here we are one year removed from missing the playoffs with a 10-6 record, tied for the best record in the NFC at 11-4 having gone 4-0 versus the NFC East, 3-1 versus the AFC West, 3-2 versus the NFC West, 7-1 at home and 4-3 on the road! We are in the dance! And with our coaches and resilient, highly motivated players---there is always a chance!

Today I wish to start with the present and future QB situation.

* Carson Palmer (6-0). Was flourishing in the offense---especially this year in converting third downs. Even though he was signed to an extension, it seemed a little odd that after he tore his ACL he mentioned how that could affect his status with the organization. Seems odd too how little involved he has remained with the team, especially with younger QBs needing support. Darnell Dockett embraced a leadership role on the sidelines. Palmer, not so much. Why?

The hope likely will be that Palmer can be fully recovered by training camp and then pick up where he left off this past season---but will BA&SK want to add a QB in 2015 to challenge Palmer?

* Drew Stanton (5-3). Stanton has done enough to warrant his value as a #2. It hasn't been pretty---save the stunning bang, bang, bang TD drive versus the Rams that put the Cardinals up to stay after Carson Palmer went down. At times one would think Stanton would have a better feel for the offense, seeing as he has three years under his belt in BA's system. It should be interesting to see how well he responds in the playoffs, assuming he can play.

That said...the Cardinals can recover $3.2M of cap space in 2015 if they wish to go with another option at #2. A good showing from Stanton in the playoffs could make that decision easier.

* Ryan Lindley (0-1). BA was hoping that Lindley's maturity and experience in the offense would give the team a chance versus the Seahawks. Lindley deserves credit for the save versus the Rams, where he did just enough to help the team win. Alas, despite competing very hard versus the Seahawks, he never got into a rhythm or flow---which was reminiscent of his struggles as a rookie---a sore and haunting memory for the fans.

Lindley might be wise to go play in the CFL for a few years. The odds of resuming his NFL career next season are thin. He needs to go and prove himself in order to catch the interest of NFL teams.

* Logan Thomas (0-0). Chances are good that he too will struggle in his first start, especially seeing that it is on the road versus the 49ers. But, what Thomas needs to do is assert his superb athleticism and give the coaches an indication that he can move the chains via the passing game and timely scrambles. Like Lindley, the questions are about his accuracy.

Thomas is a tough kid. His upside is very intriguing. Regardless of how he plays this week, he is likely a couple of years away from being ready to start in the NFL. In the interim, it would be interesting to see if the coaches can get him to double as a situational TE. Thomas is a superior athlete.

* Jeff Mathews (PS). Has the size and arm strength that BA likes. The question is whether he has the physical and mental toughness to make the jump from the Ivy League to the NFL.

BA's offense requires the QB to be tall, tough, accurate and durable in the pocket. BA favors empty backfields on 3rd downs, which mandates that the QB be a quick decision maker and increases the likelihood that the QB is going to take a number of direct hits per game.

There have to be concerns about Carson Palmer's durability following his shoulder injury and his torn ACL. Palmer has shown fluidity in the offense---and he had made impressive progress in converting third downs---but one aspect he needs to improve is his completion percentage on deep passes, one of the most important requisites of a QB in BA's system.

I think that Arians and Keim will look to add a younger player at the position who can challenge Palmer and possible take over the job. That player could very well be Mike Glennon, whom the Bucs may make available via a trade after they draft Marcus Mariotta.

Glennon fits the profile---plus, he's an NC State alum, which would certainly appeal to Steve Keim.

If the Cardinals were able to trade for Glennon, they then would try to trade Drew Stanton, if there is a market for him. Otherwise, they might just have to release him.

Playing Logan Thomas this week is a key decision because if BA&SK feel that they are as high on Thomas as they would be on a young QB like Glennon, then a trade for a younger QB becomes a moot point.

Another young QB to keep an eye on is Nick Foles. At this point, no one knows for sure what direction Chip Kelly will take with the QB position in Philly. Foles regressed this past season in Kelly's offense, and if Kelly adds a QB he really likes, Foles might become available.

If the Titans draft Jameis Winston---then perhaps Zach Mettenberger becomes available via a trade.

Unless Logan Thomas lights it up versus the 49ers, it would be surprising to see the Cardinals stand pat on the current QB situation.

A wild card in the 2015 or 2016 draft?

If Jacoby Brissett (6-4, 239, Jr., NC State) declares, Steve Keim might hop on him...check out his game versus Florida St.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo2pdkyiy4E

 

[NJCardFan]

I wouldn't be so hard on Palmer. My guess is that he's trying to recover as quickly as possible. Unlike Dockett's injury, Palmer re-shredded and already previously shredded knee so he's probably working as hard as possible to be ready for next training camp. As for QBOF, none of the existing QB's you mentioned would be a good fit in here save for Mettenberger. I actually think he can flourish in BA's system. He's almost a carbon copy of Palmer, Glennon is not an NFL QB and Foles, never liked him to begin with but I don't see him going anywhere. Not the way Sanchez has been stinking up the place.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I was hoping the title of your thread would include QBs of the past and Ryan Lindley would be in that category.

Does anyone really think Thomas has a chance to 'light it up' this Sunday even if the 9ers were to come out totally flat? Would management have enough to go on to make a decision of whether he'll even be worth keeping around for development based on one game? I know they've seen him in practice all year, his work ethic, mental approach, etc, but this game may only show them how fast he can run for his life.

.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

I like the idea of bringing in Glennon if available and at the right cost - I don't see much out there beyond him though. Also, too early to talk about Palmer/Stanton just yet, we don't know how Palmer will recover or if Stanton plays in the playoffs and does OK or completely shreds his knee. So having 3 QBs near the top would be a good thing to have, possibly throughout next season.

Also, it has been said several times that Palmer is in the QB room with the group, but his knee isn't healthy enough to be on the sideline or on the field.

 

[Paso Fino]

The picture changed quickly when Thomas today got the hook and Lindley will start Sunday. Its not a good sign that Thomas could not even impress in practice. He certainly would not seem to be slated for anything other than the third QB slot next year and I question whether SK can't find someone better.

It may be that BA became too enamored with Thomas because he came from BA's college team.

 

[az jam]

The picture changed quickly when Thomas today got the hook and Lindley will start Sunday. Its not a good sign that Thomas could not even impress in practice. He certainly would not seem to be slated for anything other than the third QB slot next year and I question whether SK can't find someone better.

It may be that BA became too enamored with Thomas because he came from BA's college team.

Totally agree, if after a year with the team he can't even look good in practice its time to look for a QB of the Future. Wasted draft pick!

 

[Jetstream Green]

I kind of like Jeff Mathews... I often see the word accuracy listed in his analysis

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Totally agree, if after a year with the team he can't even look good in practice its time to look for a QB of the Future. Wasted draft pick!

I'm not a Logan Thomas fan but to call him a wasted draft pick because of a bad practice seems a bit premature to me.

 

[Jim Otis]

Joe Montana rode the pines the first 25 games of his career , what a wasted pick !!!!

 

[Buckybird]

Joe Montana rode the pines the first 25 games of his career , what a wasted pick !!!!

Tell me how many great games Thomas had in college compared to some of the huge comebacks passing Montana had? Thomas rarely showed he could put a team on his back & win a game with his arm.

 

[Buckybird]

Somehow someway BA & Keim are gonna have to acquire a pretty damn good young QB or its gonna get the HC fired at some point.

 

[Jim Otis]

Tell me how many great games Thomas had in college compared to some of the huge comebacks passing Montana had? Thomas rarely showed he could put a team on his back & win a game with his arm.

Thats the whole point Bucky , Joe's exploits were well known but Walsh kept him on the bench for 25 games while the team only won 5 of those 25 games . Joe played the final 7 games of 1980 and posted a 3 and 4 record , yet some folks seem to think that Thomas should be ready right now or be labeled a bust . LT might eventually show us that he is a bust , but it's way to early to be calling him a bust .

 

[az jam]

I'm not a Logan Thomas fan but to call him a wasted draft pick because of a bad practice seems a bit premature to me.

Sorry, but I felt that way when they made the pick. I thought he was horrible in college. Most pro scouts projected him as a Tight End in the pros.

 

[Darkside]

Thats the whole point Bucky , Joe's exploits were well known but Walsh kept him on the bench for 25 games while the team only won 5 of those 25 games . Joe played the final 7 games of 1980 and posted a 3 and 4 record , yet some folks seem to think that Thomas should be ready right now or be labeled a bust . LT might eventually show us that he is a bust , but it's way to early to be calling him a bust .

I get your point, but that was decades ago bro. Decades. Football is different now. A dude like Steve Young or Joe Montana would have to play now. Nobody let's dudes ride pine. I even think Rodgers is a total exception. It's rare.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

And I was worried we weren't going to have anything to talk about this week.

 

[Southpaw]

Glennon could be a desired commodity in the NFL and if the Cards are interested they could get into a bidding contest.Tampa has painted themselves into a corner with their QB situation. I don't think they can keep Glennon given that they tossed Glennon to the curb by signing McKown and naming him instant starter.

Given the arguable fact that this upcoming draft is QB challenged, any free agent/or tradeable QB will attract major attention.

I would like to see next year's QB roster look like;

1. Palmer
2. Glennon
3. Matthews

Stanton will find a job elsewhere and Glennon has a higher future. Thomas is not much better than a redshirt freshman QB at the college level. He received nearly zero coaching at Va tech in a non existent offense. Way too much molding required. The NFL doesn't have time for his needs. I see Glennon above Stanton as a starter. If Palmer can't come back his heir needs to come in ready to go.

 

[Mitch]

RB:

* Andre Ellington. The more Sir Juke was getting banged up the more the Cardinals' offense started to sputter. Losing Jonathan Dwyer and the touches he was supposed to get per game was tough on Ellington. It seems reasonable to assume moving forward that Ellington cannot be a work horse RB---and if the Cardinals add a work house RB this off-season, it would allow BA to use The Juke in the diversified role he thrived in as a rookie. BA claims that Ellington is as good a receiver and route runner as any player on the team. Working Ellington more out of the slot could be a real boon for the Cardinals' productivity. But there's no question about it: as Sir Juke goes, so goes the Cardinals' offense.

* Stepfan Taylor. BA's reluctance to increase Taylor's role in the offense, particularly after Dwyer was cut is telling in the sense that BA would prefer a more dynamic RB. Taylor is a blue collar RB who plays hard and steadily. He's a good blocker and he doesn't fumble. He improved his speed and agility this year, but is still slower than the coaches prefer. However, Taylor is solid on STs and is an all-around, steady player. Nonetheless, Taylor may have to beat out Robert Hughes for the #4 RB slot next year, assuming a work horse RB is added.

* Robert Hughes. Was raved about in camp by BA for his versatility, his blocking and his uncanny pass receiving skills, and yet has been vastly under-utilized in the offense. When Hughes has been called upon he has delivered in spades. The questions are: why doesn't BA throw to him more and why isn't Hughes used as the power RB when the team needs to run between the tackles? Hughes is just as fast, if not faster than Taylor---and he's more rugged.

* Marion Grice. The Cardinals like his versatility, as evidenced by the times he is being used as a slot WR. There is real talent here. Could he become a lead RB? The fact that Taylor is getting the touches at RB right now would suggest not. However, if Grice has a Stevie Breaston like 2nd year burst, Grice might become quite a factor.

* Kerwynn Williams. What a diamond in the rough this kid appears to be. He gets after it---hits the whole hard, does not go down on first contact and has a nice burst in space. Gutsy, quick and gritty. While it would be unlikely for him to ever be the work horse RB, he could be the change of pace RB when BA wants to use Ellington more in the slot.

Many of the early mock drafts have the Cardinals taking a RB in the late portion of Round 1---the three names that pop up most are Todd Gurley, T.J. Yelton and Melvin Gordon.

If the Cardinals can take care of the defensive needs in FA---then one of those three RBs might make sense.

 

[Cardsfanstl]

Somehow someway BA & Keim are gonna have to acquire a pretty damn good young QB or its gonna get the HC fired at some point.

I agree. I may be wrong but to me Stanton has not proven he is the guy. Lindley definitely is not it. Withholding judgement on Thomas because we have not seen him play much. If the FO thinks Thomas is not the QOF then they need to bring one in.

 

[TRW]

My question would be:

What NFL team has a backup, let alone a third or fourth stringer, who can step in and "be the guy" for more than a game or two if the starter goes down?

Maybe there's a team or two but I can't dredge up who they are.

 

[Mitch]

WR:

* Larry Fitzgerald. His toughness and unselfish leadership have shown up in a big way this year. However, quite honestly, with the WR unit being as deep as it is, Fitz is not getting the number of targets he is accustomed to---nor is he being used on the perimeter anymore, as BA likes his speed WRs wide and his possession WRs inside. His upcoming cap figure of $23M is prohibitive and even though right now Steve Keim is asserting that the Cardinals are prepared to allot $23M to Fitz in 2015, the business ramifications of such a move are unjustifiable, especially in light of Fitz's decreased role in the offense, the most disturbing of which is that BA isn't using Fitz in the red zone on his bread-and-butter fade and back shoulder routes. That is a mind-boggler. Keim may be posturing in order to maintain trade value for Fitz---but BA hasn't done Fitz any favors as a trade chip by relegating him to the slot, especially seeing as teams like the Patriots prefer smaller, quicker WRs in the slot while using their TEs as the big targets over the middle. The book on Fitz now is that he is not fast or elusive enough to play on the outside, therefore he does not any longer command a double digit WR salary, let alone a whopping $23M. The question is: will Fitz choose to work out a compromise with the Cardinals or will he want to play in a system that he feels better suits his talents? That answer may be obvious---and as committed as Fitz is to pursuing his Super Bowl dreams, he will likely go to his preferred team at a largely reduced salary.

* Michael Floyd. Has a knack for beating CBs deep by a step and for making leaping catches downfield. Runs a decent, but not great 12 yard out, which is aided by his ability as a deep threat. Other than that, he is a below average WR who lacks the desire and the requisite toughness to make plays over the middle. Floyd is a willing and able blocker. But, moving forward, if all he can do in the passing game is essentially run 2-3 routes on the route tree, then he is drastically limiting his own and the offense's potential.

* John Brown. One would think that with Ellington out, the Cardinals would try to get the ball in Brown's hands more often, and yet Brown seems to be targeted less as the games go by, which could be a function of the merry-go-round at QB. Unlike Floyd, Brown is dynamic running every route on the route tree. He is virtually impossible to cover one on one, especially on short and intermediate crossing routes. Brown has had his share of drops, but he's made some spectacular catches, especially late in games. He is still developing as a route runner, as he tends to round out some of his routes and he needs to focus a little better catching the ball in traffic, which takes some time for young WRs to do.

* Jaron Brown. Now this guy has the toughness and the desire to work all areas of the field, especially over the middle. He has excellent hands and is a legitimate deep threat. Will make the big third down conversion catch when called upon. Good, willing blocker and solid STs player.

* Ted Ginn, Jr. Ginn was signed because of Patrick Peterson's diminishing desire to risk injury on kickoff and punt returns. Ginn has essentially presented himself in the same way as Peterson did last year, as an unwilling, poor decision-making, tentative, fair-catch obsessed, sideways and backwards running return man. What's most troubling about Ginn is the lack of influence the ST coach and the Head Coach are having on him, as Ginn's effort level and passion for making the big play on STs have been consistently absent game after game. He has made a contribution as a #4/#5 WR, mostly in running deep outs and occasional stack slants. Interesting that with his speed, the offense has rarely if ever tried to establish Ginn as one of the deep threats. Clearly he looks like a player who has gone into coast mode after signing a 3 year deal, at a time when his team is reaching like mad for the gold rings. Very very disappointing, to say the least.

* Brittan Golden. Was recently promoted from the PS, but has not yet been used. Had a good pre-season as a speedy, shifty slot WR and return man. It would be sweet justice if he wrestles the #5 WR return man job away this week from the hapless Ginn.

 

[Cardsfanstl]

My question would be:

What NFL team has a backup, let alone a third or fourth stringer, who can step in and "be the guy" for more than a game or two if the starter goes down?

Maybe there's a team or two but I can't dredge up who they are.

You are right. I cannot name one at this moment. However the team needs to think about the future. Palmer has 2 years at the most left. If they are comfortable with Stanton taking over then fine but if not then they need to bring in a young QBOF to learn from Palmer.

 

[Mitch]

You are right. I cannot name one at this moment. However the team needs to think about the future. Palmer has 2 years at the most left. If they are comfortable with Stanton taking over then fine but if not then they need to bring in a young QBOF to learn from Palmer.

At this point I think BA&SK will no longer put all their eggs in the Palmer/Stanton basket, due to age and durability questions.

 

[Totally_Red]

I agree with the potential acquisition of Mike Glennon. With the potential drafting of one of the two franchise quarterbacks by the Bucs next April and with Josh McCown under contract for another year, Mike Glennon will probably be on the market. He might be available for only a 4th or 5th round pick.

I disagree about the strength of the wide receiver position. The Cardinals don't have anyone close to a #1 receiver outside of Larry. IMO, it would be a huge mistake to weaken the position by letting him go. MIchael Floyd's problem is lack of consistency and too many drops. Maybe I was spoiled by Larry & Anquan Boldin, but Floyd has a bunch of juggling catches and drops. He is tough and a decent blocker, but he's a marginal #2 receiver IMO. I don't see the Cardinals breaking the bank to re-sign after his contract expires after the 2015 season.

 

[TRW]

At this point I think BA&SK will no longer put all their eggs in the Palmer/Stanton basket, due to age and durability questions.

Most likely true. But, then again, BA can say with a straight face that he thinks he can win a SB with Stanton. So who knows?

 

[GuernseyCard]

WR:

* Larry Fitzgerald. His toughness and unselfish leadership have shown up in a big way this year. However, quite honestly, with the WR unit being as deep as it is, Fitz is not getting the number of targets he is accustomed to---nor is he being used on the perimeter anymore, as BA likes his speed WRs wide and his possession WRs inside. His upcoming cap figure of $23M is prohibitive and even though right now Steve Keim is asserting that the Cardinals are prepared to allot $23M to Fitz in 2015, the business ramifications of such a move are unjustifiable, especially in light of Fitz's decreased role in the offense, the most disturbing of which is that BA isn't using Fitz in the red zone on his bread-and-butter fade and back shoulder routes. That is a mind-boggler. Keim may be posturing in order to maintain trade value for Fitz---but BA hasn't done Fitz any favors as a trade chip by relegating him to the slot, especially seeing as teams like the Patriots prefer smaller, quicker WRs in the slot while using their TEs as the big targets over the middle. The book on Fitz now is that he is not fast or elusive enough to play on the outside, therefore he does not any longer command a double digit WR salary, let alone a whopping $23M. The question is: will Fitz choose to work out a compromise with the Cardinals or will he want to play in a system that he feels better suits his talents? That answer may be obvious---and as committed as Fitz is to pursuing his Super Bowl dreams, he will likely go to his preferred team at a largely reduced salary.

What Keim actually said was that Fitz's CAP charge was factored in. Did he mean the $23m or perhaps a new number they've figured into their business plan? This isn't crystal clear as he made no direct reference to the existing 2015 CAP figure.

We'll know where both parties stand no later than March 4th., the due date for his $8m bonus.

Keep a few complications in mind:

Should the Cards cut him it's a $14.4m accelerated CAP hit. If they split it over 2 seasons, they don't have access to the CAP saving until after June 1st. You cannot post-date an agreement reached prior to that date, which effects the team's ability to be players in the early stages of Free Agency.

I've never heard a peep from Fitz suggesting he wants to leave, so it seems there's room for negotiation. The key is getting his base salary down and it seems that the Marshall deal in Chicago ($10m per over 3 years) could be a template. The key is guarantees given that there is little of that going forward in the existing deal.