Armchair GM's

[jlove]

This was posted at phxsuns.net, and I thought it would be fun to see what happens on this board.

All of you armchair GM's, here is a thread dedicated to you finishing out this offseason for the Suns. This thread will assume that the JJ trade is completed as has been published...

Assets:

Our LLE of approximately 1.7 million
The Voskuhl exception of a little over 1.9 million
The JJ exception of approximately 4.9 million (most common figure given)
Suns 2006 first round pick
Suns 2006 second round pick (we still have this, right?)
Protected second round pick from Charlotte (minimal asset)
2006 Lakers/Celtics lottery protected pick (likely in the late teens to early 20's range)
Future Atlanta first round pick (likely most valuable pick)
Rights to Milos Vujanic (does anyone care anymore?)

_______________________________________________________

Needs:
Frontcourt depth (ie: Fix the paint)
Backup PG
Overall depth

______________________________________________________

Liabilities:

Little to no actual cap space
Very few tradeable players of any value (essentially only Barbosa and JJax) - to me this may be one of our biggest difficulties in sign and trade deals. Our remaining roster is an unbalanced mix of All Stars and waiver wire type players.
Possible spendthriftiness in our ownership (but this need not hinder you in spending)

____________________________________________________

As much as possible try to stay within the framework of the CBA (ie: Diaw for Shaq just doesn't work under the cap)
Trades should be at least reasonably realistic (show value for both teams)
A breakdown of minutes and positions would be nice.
Have fun!!![/u]

 

[jlove]

This is what I think....

1st. Sign Finley to the vets min.
2nd. Sign Grant to the $1.7 LLE
3rd. Trade $4.1 mil of the JJ TE (leaving us $900K) and the Lakers/Celtics 1st round pick to Cavs for Gooden (possibly add in the 2008 2nd round pick they owe us)
4th. Sign Stephen Graham to rookie min (Roughly $480K)
5th. Trade $970k of the Voskul TE and Suns 2006 1st round pick to Celtics for Tony Allen **or $1.5 mil of the Voskul TE and Suns 1st rounder for Marcus Banks**


Leaving the Suns roster as:
PG: Nash/Allen (or Banks)/Barbosa
SG: Finley/Bell/Diaw
SF: Marion/JJax/Padgett
PF: KT/Gooden
C: Amare/Grant/Burke

NBDL: Ticher/Thompson/Graham

In my eyes we have a very deep team, Allen (or Banks) would shore up our back-up point better than Barbosa can. The additions of Grant and Gooden would definitely help with depth, rebounding, and defense. We wouldn't have to worry about one of our bigs getting hurt. If they do, we'd have the depth to overcome. I think we could do the above actions with ease as well as the other teams be willing to do the deals.

 

[elindholm]

I think this discussion will quickly get bogged down in arguments about what passes the "realistic" test. I'd love to get Gooden for a couple of lousy picks and a trade exception, but I don't see Cleveland biting on that, and even if they did I doubt that Gooden wants to be a backup at this stage in his career.

Also, given the apparent widespread interest around the league in both Finley and Grant (assuming Finley is indeed amnestized), I doubt that either of them would take the minimum to come to Phoenix, and even the LLE seems unlikely for Finley (who can still actually play).

 

[jlove]

It's been rumored that Finley's core put the rumor out there that he was most likely going to sign with the Heat, to help persuade Dallas to cut him. That way he could come here. A bit of a smokecreen so to speak. And with Grant, Unless he wants to be a back with Miami, that's the only other place I see him possibly going.

 

[myrondizzo]

on ESPN they said that players cant double dip. so why would they want to sign for more.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2112912&num=2
Q: Is there a reduction in a team's financial obligation to an amnesty player once he signs a new contract with another team? Or can a player double-dip? A: The union fought to make double-dipping permissable, but the league held firm and won the right in the end to apply the usual set-off provision for players released with money owed to any amnesty player's new contract. That means a percentage of the player's new salary will go back to the team that released him.

 

[fordronken]

It's been rumored that Finley's core put the rumor out there that he was most likely going to sign with the Heat, to help persuade Dallas to cut him. That way he could come here. A bit of a smokecreen so to speak. And with Grant, Unless he wants to be a back with Miami, that's the only other place I see him possibly going.

Does me making up a joke about it in another thread qualify it as a rumour?

 

[Griffin]

on ESPN they said that players cant double dip. so why would they want to sign for more.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2112912&num=2
Q: Is there a reduction in a team's financial obligation to an amnesty player once he signs a new contract with another team? Or can a player double-dip? A: The union fought to make double-dipping permissable, but the league held firm and won the right in the end to apply the usual set-off provision for players released with money owed to any amnesty player's new contract. That means a percentage of the player's new salary will go back to the team that released him.

But a percentage of the new salary (I believe 50%) goes to the player.

 

[Joe Mama]

I actually found the Tony Allen trade proposal more unlikely than the Drew Gooden one. It would take more than that to get Tony Allen from the Celtics.

Joe Mama

 

[Dustbuster]

For what it's worth, here is my two cents:

I have a couple of potential targets in mind:

First move: trade a portion of the JJ exception and the Suns 2006 first round pick to Cleveland for Drew Gooden. This makes sense for both teams, giving the Suns some real depth in the frontcourt with a young player that has both current game and potential for improvement. The Suns would go from a weak rebounding team last year to a very strong one this year. I would have KT as the primary backup for both 4 and 5 positions behind Amare and Drew.
-This also makes sense for Cleveland, as Gooden no longer fits in their plans and, if I understand this correctly, they should be able to renounce the exception and then just use the cap space vacated by Gooden's salary (currently right over 4 million). This would give them a total of about 7 million in remaining space - a lot of change to work with. They could pursue someone like Evans from Seattle. It would also give them an extra pick to work with next year.

Concerns over this:

-Gooden has at minimum some minor attitude problems. His effort is not always consistent. But his talent is undeniable. While Amare has far surpassed him, even as recent as early last year some people actually debated who was better. Gooden has a good outside shot and is a stronger rebounder than Amare right now. I think they would team up well.
-Secondly, and perhaps more import, Gooden would be eligible for an extension right now. What kind of change does he think he's worth? Would he accept something at, say, an MLE type level? Using this valuable exception to essentially rent him for a season would be unacceptable. I am also unsure as to what kind of rights the Suns would have to him, having just aquired him this season. If he would sign a deal starting in the 6-8 million range, he would probably be worth it.

Second move: Aquire Steve Blake either through FA (LLE) or in a sign and trade using the Voskuhl exception and perhaps a second round pick. He strikes me as good backup for Nash, as he is a pass first true PG that has decent size, plays solid defense, and while his shooting numbers aren't great from the field, his 3 point FG% is quite good. It seems to me that he just needs better shot selection. He should be available on the cheap. I wouldn't mind the sign and trade just to lock him up to a cheap deal long term. Starting at around 2 mil, 5 years, about a 13 million contract. Use either the Suns second round pick for next year or the Charlotte pick (or even both) to get Washington to play.

Final Moves:

Sign Finley for minimum, if possible. This could be only for a year, or a couple of years with a player option on the second. He might consider it for his friendship with Nash and the chance to win a championship.

Sign Stevie Graham to an uber-cheap contract and put him and Tischer on our NBDL team.

Rotations and Minutes:

Nash (30)/Blake (15)/Barbosa (3)
Finley (25)/Bell (20)/Barbosa (3)
Marion (25/JJax (20) Bell (3)
Gooden (30)/ KT (10)/ Marion (

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Amare (35)/ KT (13)

Spot duty: Diaw, Padgett
Towel wavers: Burke, Thompson
NBDL: Graham, Tischer

This is a strong 14 man roster with two other minor players in the NBDL. Thompson might also be placed in the NBDL to give him minutes.

Whadda ya think?

 

[PakistaniRambo]

i'd really like to get either gooden or wilcox to backup amare/KT. I dont see KT playing backup to anyone, he will be our starting Center come november, guaranteed.

as for our backup PG, dont forget about good ol' Gary Payton. He still hasn't signed with anyone. if we can snag him for the vet min i think that would be a steal. and then if we could also get Finley and Brian Grant somehow, then we would be rediculously deep.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I think everyone is underestimating what it will take to get Gooden from the Cavs.

While they do not necessarily need him, that doesn't mean they are just going to give him away.

It is like the Suns with Q. He wasn't needed so they moved him for a piece they did need. Cleveland will move Gooden if it lands them a starting PG. They might move him for a package deal, but it will require front court depth back.


BTW - Tony Allen is not available, especially at the price given. The proposal for Marcus Banks however is much more possible.

 

[jlove]

This is what I think....

1st. Sign Finley to the vets min.
2nd. Sign Grant to the $1.7 LLE
3rd. Trade $4.1 mil of the JJ TE (leaving us $900K) and the Lakers/Celtics 1st round pick to Cavs for Gooden (possibly add in the 2008 2nd round pick they owe us)
4th. Sign Stephen Graham to rookie min (Roughly $480K)
5th. Trade $970k of the Voskul TE and Suns 2006 1st round pick to Celtics for Tony Allen **or $1.5 mil of the Voskul TE and Suns 1st rounder for Marcus Banks**


Leaving the Suns roster as:
PG: Nash/Allen (or Banks)/Barbosa
SG: Finley/Bell/Diaw
SF: Marion/JJax/Padgett
PF: KT/Gooden
C: Amare/Grant/Burke

NBDL: Ticher/Thompson/Graham

In my eyes we have a very deep team, Allen (or Banks) would shore up our back-up point better than Barbosa can. The additions of Grant and Gooden would definitely help with depth, rebounding, and defense. We wouldn't have to worry about one of our bigs getting hurt. If they do, we'd have the depth to overcome. I think we could do the above actions with ease as well as the other teams be willing to do the deals.

Prediction #2 has been accomplished. Phoenix signs Brian Grant with the $1.67 mil LLE.

 

[jlove]

Also, given the apparent widespread interest around the league in both Finley and Grant (assuming Finley is indeed amnestized), I doubt that either of them would take the minimum to come to Phoenix, and even the LLE seems unlikely for Finley (who can still actually play).

What was that elindholm?

 

[elindholm]

Prediction #2 has been accomplished. Phoenix signs Brian Grant with the $1.67 mil LLE.

Yep, it was only #3 and #5 that clearly failed the "realistic" test. We'll see about #1.

 

[elindholm]

What was that elindholm?

Grant didn't take the minimum. My point was that, in your scenario, someone has to take the minimum -- you had Finley, but swapping them wouldn't work either.

I'm optimistic that I may have been wrong about Finley, now that I've thought more carefully about the circumstances.

#3 and #5 are still ridiculous though, sorry.

 

[jlove]

What was that elindholm?

Grant didn't take the minimum. My point was that, in your scenario, someone has to take the minimum -- you had Finley, but swapping them wouldn't work either.

I'm optimistic that I may have been wrong about Finley, now that I've thought more carefully about the circumstances.

#3 and #5 are still ridiculous though, sorry.

Possibly. Other scenarios could have the Suns using the $1.9 Mil TE and the Suns 1st round pick next year for Payton in a S&T.

Another could have the Suns using the $4.9 mil TE and the Lakers/Celtics 2006 pick along with Barbosa (or a 2nd round pick) for Wilcox and Mikki Moore (S&T)

 

[elindholm]

Other scenarios could have the Suns using the $1.9 Mil TE and the Suns 1st round pick next year for Payton in a S&T.

I agree that that's possible, but I doubt the Suns have any interest in Payton. He figures to be a disruptive influence, and he just isn't that good a shooter.

Another could have the Suns using the $4.9 mil TE and the Lakers/Celtics 2006 pick along with Barbosa (or a 2nd round pick) for Wilcox and Mikki Moore (S&T)

For both of them? Not a chance. Moore can probably be had for the Voskuhl exception (and a late pick), and I think that the Suns might want to consider that, but they might also feel that he just won't be effective enough to warrant any playing time.

I'm not as high on Wilcox as most of this board is. He looks small to me -- certainly there's no way he could cover any minutes at center -- and has the Stromile Swift-like characteristic of looking lost for long stretches. Also like Swift, he has flourished in his rare starting opportunities, but he wouldn't be starting in Phoenix, so that doesn't do any good. I'm not sure why the Clippers seem to be down on him, particularly since Brand is injured all the time, and I have no idea what they'd want in return. I suspect that they'd want (and get) some real talent back if they decided to peddle him.

A general word about Barbosa: He has no trade value. If a trade doesn't make sense for the other team without Barbosa, it doesn't make any sense with him. No one wants a 6' 2" shooting guard who can't speak English and hasn't shown any improvement over his first two years in the league. I haven't given up on him and hope that the Suns can find a way to develop him, but that's not the same as thinking that he has any value in a trade.

 

[jlove]

Other scenarios could have the Suns using the $1.9 Mil TE and the Suns 1st round pick next year for Payton in a S&T.

I agree that that's possible, but I doubt the Suns have any interest in Payton. He figures to be a disruptive influence, and he just isn't that good a shooter.

Read the article by Paul Coro with the AZ Republic and then let me know what you think.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...16suns0816.html

 

[elindholm]

Read the article by Paul Coro with the AZ Republic and then let me know what you think.

I already know that there is speculation of the Suns' interest in Payton. What I'm saying is that I don't believe the interest is serious. I'll be very, very surprised if he ends up playing for Phoenix this year.

 

[fordronken]

I agree that that's possible, but I doubt the Suns have any interest in Payton. He figures to be a disruptive influence, and he just isn't that good a shooter.

I already know that there is speculation of the Suns' interest in Payton. What I'm saying is that I don't believe the interest is serious. I'll be very, very surprised if he ends up playing for Phoenix this year.

The Suns, from everything I've ever heard, don't go after a player unless they fully intend to make an offer and hope they sign it. I also don't think he'd be very disruptive. I'm not even sure a locker room with Steve Nash in it can get very disruptive. If Payton came to the Suns, he'd be well aware whose team it is. It's Nash and Stoudemire's. He'd be coming as a willing back up to the MVP, trying to get his first championship and the first ever championship for the Suns. Sure, he'll have an outburst or two throughout the season(although from everything I've heard, he was a pretty model citizen in Boston).

I also think that Payton will want a little more than the minimum, and the difference maker will be if the Suns are willing to work out a sign and trade with the Celtics using their exception and whatever considerations it takes to convince Danny Ainge(though I expect Ainge wouldn't be a prick about it-- he likes the Suns still and parted on good terms with Payton).

 

[elindholm]

The Suns, from everything I've ever heard, don't go after a player unless they fully intend to make an offer and hope they sign it.

We'll see. All the article said was "there has been discussion." Who knows what that means. It could easily mean that the Suns discussed Payton, decided not to pursue him, and some staffer leaked that the player had been "discussed."

I think that this board indulges in a bit of revisionist history when it comes to which players the Suns wanted. If you were to conduct a poll right now, I bet the majority would tell you that the Suns never targeted Bryant last summer.

Incidentally, do you think they were ever really interested in Okur? I don't, but there's no way to know for sure.

 

[sunsfn]

Payton went to L.A. knowing the team was Shaq & Kobe's team, that did not bother him in complaining about playing time and the way the team was run. That was with Phil Jackson as coach.........!

 

[coloradosun]

Just with the current personel on each team, Payton makes more sense in Miami and Finley makes more sense in Phoenix.

Miami has not resigned Damon Jones, Phoenix lost JJ.

 

[elindholm]

Payton went to L.A. knowing the team was Shaq & Kobe's team, that did not bother him in complaining about playing time and the way the team was run. That was with Phil Jackson as coach.........!

And he was starting there, not playing 15-20 minutes a game as a backup.

It's a bad fit.

 

[jlove]

Payton has already said that he would welcome playing for the Suns BEHIND Nash, and that he knew Nash ran the show here. He also said that he saw that the Suns needed a back-up point that could run the show the way Nash does when Nash is sitting. All of this was said on The Best Damn Sports Show Period by Payton himself a few months ago. Since there has been no enthusiasm by teams going after him, I'm sure they could get him cheaply.