Artice - Cards, Fitzgerald not close to deal

[Shane]

I know you are joking but in all honesty I think I would be fine with that. Even though I think he is a better WR then Boldin. It sounds crazy to trade him but think about it. It means that Boldin cant complain about a new deal for another 2 years and it means that we would have enough to re-sign Pace, sign Faneca, and sign one other starter. On top of what we would get in return for Fitz(draft picks/players). I think we would be a better more deep team and I love Fitz.

I hate paying WR's.

When you put it that way IM IN really! Getter done!

 

[mjb21aztd]

Please get Fitz resigned to a new deal if he has a chance to hit the fa market he is good as gone COME ON CARDS

 

[Shane]

Please get Fitz resigned to a new deal if he has a chance to hit the fa market he is good as gone COME ON CARDS

No hes not. Hes not a FA for two more years.

 

[mjb21aztd]

oh I thought it was sooner then that glad i'm wrong , atleast we have him for two more years

 

[Shane]

oh I thought it was sooner then that glad i'm wrong , atleast we have him for two more years

He still needs to get re-signed because his cap # is beyond atrocious.

 

[joeshmo]

I don't really like paying WRs, either, but I like even less getting $0.60 on the dollar for one of the Top 20 players in the NFL.

Thats not all you would be getting though. You would also be getting 17 Mill in cap space to be used on even more starters.

The Moss deal also doesn't say very much either because the Vikings at the time thought Harris was a starter caliber player it is there fault for picking the wrong player and for picking a crappy player with their 1st rounder.

 

[joeshmo]

40, I think a good example of what Joe is saying is KW's contract. He didn't reach an incentive that would have paid him another 500K. As opposed to if we said "ok, in the later years of his contract, we'll just automatically pay the 500K". If Fitz didn't hit the incentives, it wouldn't count so much against the cap. I think that's what he's saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wow, you got it before the accountant did.

Your signature should read - Joeshmo's Translator.

 

[joeshmo]

Joe, I got a degree in accounting once upon a long time ago and I will guarantee you that no matter how you slice and dice the numbers, they are still numbers and anytime you put off paying something until tomorrow and keep doing that, it will eventually catch up with you and kill you.

That's the only problem with the housing market today. People bought more house than they could afford thinking they had a good investment and would be able to sell at a profit at a later date. Many investment counselers were pushing this and a lot of people took their advice. The market went to pot and now they are stuck. Believe me, this same type of thing is going to happen to the NFL. The only question is when.

People are going to get tired of paying through the nose for this type of entertainment and seeing these rich, pampered stars quibbling over whether they get $40 million or $50 million dollars in the next 5 or 6 years. And you know what? It might not be a bad thing for football to have some bad years. Get back to the basics and play football because you love the game.

First Paragraph. Tell that to the Redskins who have yet to have this cap catch up with them. Creative cap economics at its best. Its how teams can spend 115 Mill on player salaries in one season like the Pats did yet the cap is only 109 Mill. The cap with all of its nuances and loop holes is a completely different animal then the house market or any other market. Mostly because it is a certianty that the cap will go up every year and because of a 300 page 50% of which is archiac, NFLPA rule book. For example the LTBE or Likely to be earned bonus that allows teams to spend over the cap the following year and not get in trouble.

Last paragraph we are in complete agreement although how many people in the real world do yo know that have said "you know what I am going to make less just for the love of my job."

 

[ItsInTheCards]

No hes not. Hes not a FA for two more years.

ahhhhh.....to be a FA in the uncapped year

 

[Stout]

I'll chime in on this. Fitz was the 3rd player taken in the draft the year Denny Green came on board. Denny's Godson and former ballboy or whatever.

The FO didn't want him to hold out to start his (Denny's) regime off right. He was one of the first players to recieve escalators that the org. formerly refused to negotiate. Most on this board questioned why the FO would'nt give the escalators, since the Cardinals were traditionally one of the only ones not to negotiate contracts that way for high draft picks, and hence had alot of holdouts.

So this is the mess we're left with, Fitz' deal.Problem is how much more guaranteed $$ can the team offer him over the 31 mil. that's allready due him the next two yrs? Next season something has to get done with that mess of a deal for the org. standpoint and good for the team. This year the incentive isn't big enough for him to re-up IMO.

And that's a shame cause it might probobly cost us Pace.

Nah, bro, you got it all backwards. The money on his contract for this year and the next is not guaranteed. He gets hurt at any point, he will not see almost any of it. That's his incentive right there. Plus, if he signs an extension, it completely and utterly wipes out his old deal, so it's not like we have to give him more on top of it. So, if we give him a new deal with, say, a 32 million guaranteed bonus, and he blows out his knee the next day, he'll still get 32 million bucks. If he doesn't have the extension, I believe Joe said he'd get somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 million. Sure, he can take the chance he doens't get hurt seriously and cash in on that money, but why risk that when you can get the same amount PLUS a nice hefty salary with an extension?

 

[red desert]

If I'm Fitz's agent, I'm telling Fitz that we're not doing a deal unless it's the deal of the century. Think about it, Fitz can make crazy money the next two years. Then, when he's a free agent, there will probably have been deals with other wr's that will push any contract he wants way up in value. Anything he gets in a deal right now, will be trivial in 2 years. Hopefully Fitz will be a team guy and urge his agent to get a deal done, but it still worries me. We have absolutely zero leverage and Fitz stands to make a ton of money for the next 2 years, and then get ridiculous money after he's a FA.

Especially when idiot Graves is opening spouting off at the combine about how they are going to pay Fitz all this ridiculous money if they can't agree on a long term extension. Unreal.

 

[red desert]

Well we do have some leverage. He could get hurt and not recieve anything beyond an injury settlement this year. Usually about half your salary so around 8 mil. Or he could sign a 8 year extension with 32 mil signing bonus and huge salaries in 7th and 8th year and restructure then. 8 mil or 32 mil??

Yeah, we got leverage.

Sorry. Not dissing your post, just Graves naivete. Or stupidity. Can't figure out which it is.

 

[red desert]

Absolutely is the same. You of all people were the one tooting the horn to have the Cards do the back end loading to be able to get higher priced players on this team. If we hadn't have paid the money out last year, we would really be in sad shape this year. So you hollered at Graves last year because you wanted him to take more player debt on and now you are hollering at him because he did with Larry a couple of years ago what you were wanting him to do last year with several other players. You can't have it both ways.

Peyton = Fitz

Polian = Graves

Hmm....

Sorry. You lost me.

 

[red desert]

Thanks, Joe. Very well said. You're comparing apples to oranges to kiwis, 40. Fitz's cap difficulties aren't coming from backloaded salary, but from incentives he has reached. The contracts last year ate up cap space that year and didn't save much cap space for this year anyway. As has been stated by Joe, Peyton Manning ended up getting more guaranteed money instead of having paper money on his contract that he'd never see. Saved cap space, but paid Manning more. All of these above are different issues entirely.

The problem is that you're defending a contract approach last year that was supposed to give us cap space this year. Well, were has all the cap space gone? Graves' inability to get the Fitz deal done is killing us. He's moved slowly and now all of a sudden he's got his back against the wall. He HAS to get it done, or he has to get fired. That simple. This is his job at its very basic. Competent GMs do not let the team stop dead in its tracks because of one player's contract.

Here's what I want to know about Graves genius: Exactly how much of an incentive did Fitz get for something as feasible about a #3 overall pick making the pro bowl in year 4 of his career? That will tell us a lot about the Cardinal's "GM's brillance".

 

[DaisyCutter]

Thats not all you would be getting though. You would also be getting 17 Mill in cap space to be used on even more starters.

The Moss deal also doesn't say very much either because the Vikings at the time thought Harris was a starter caliber player it is there fault for picking the wrong player and for picking a crappy player with their 1st rounder.

Well, then, joe. What deal do you think we could get for Fitz, realisitcally? And you know as well as I that the "even more starters" that that $17 million would be used for probably aren't all that great--we both know that the free agency crop is going to be pretty middling for the next few years.

Green Bay unloaded Javon Walker for a 2nd round pick. He also had two seasons left on his rookie deal. New England traded Deion Branch to Seattle for a low first-round pick. Do you honestly believe that some team is going to give up two first-day picks and a solid starter (likely at a premium position like pass rusher or cornerback) for the right to give Larry Fitzgerald 10% of their salary cap?

 

[slanidrac16]

Well, then, joe. What deal do you think we could get for Fitz, realisitcally? And you know as well as I that the "even more starters" that that $17 million would be used for probably aren't all that great--we both know that the free agency crop is going to be pretty middling for the next few years.

Green Bay unloaded Javon Walker for a 2nd round pick. He also had two seasons left on his rookie deal. New England traded Deion Branch to Seattle for a low first-round pick. Do you honestly believe that some team is going to give up two first-day picks and a solid starter (likely at a premium position like pass rusher or cornerback) for the right to give Larry Fitzgerald 10% of their salary cap?

Maybe the Eagles would give us their first and Kevin Curtis. I don't want to trade him, but geez, 17 m for 1 player for 1 season ...that's 1/6 th of your teams salary cap.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Look at it this way.If the Cards did trade Fitz it would probably be contingent on that team working out a new deal for him. That said team, with a real GM,would get a deal worked out in 24-48 hours.Our GM is too busy crying to the media about needing Fitz to be a team player and has had months to get a deal done. I sure we hope we give RG another extension.

 

[40yearfan]

Sorry, but I had to turn off that godawful red bolded text.

Now, to answer your post, YES, I most certainly did hear Graves say that. He claimed that last year we had a weak FA class and that he wanted to, and I quote, "Keep the powder dry" for next year. Well, guess what? It's now next year and our powder ain't dry. You're surprised that this makes people unhappy? His philosophy clearly didn't work.

Well I never heard him say that. The only people I heard stating that was a reporter or two guessing as to why Graves did what he did. I don't think that came out of Graves mouth.

And that contingency that the FO had in place was...was...was...I'm sorry, I'm still waiting for the contingency plan. Where's all the cap space? Where's the dry powder? You think we should compliment them for their foresight? Where was their foresight in coming up with what to do if their all-pro WR made the Pro Bowl? Their foresight has possibly ruined this offseason for us. There, I gave them the proper credit for their foresight.

The contingency was and is that we can afford to pay Fitz's salary if we can't get him to rework his contract. And we still have that contingency, so yes it did work.


EDIT: Sheesh, sorry about that Stout. I thought the green would be easier to read and it's even worse. Ahhh, if your eyes go bad reading this stuff, I'll get you a pair of glasses.

 

[40yearfan]

40, I think a good example of what Joe is saying is KW's contract. He didn't reach an incentive that would have paid him another 500K. As opposed to if we said "ok, in the later years of his contract, we'll just automatically pay the 500K". If Fitz didn't hit the incentives, it wouldn't count so much against the cap. I think that's what he's saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I understand that. What I don't understand is why everybody now thinks that this is a bad contract. Didn't we want him to hit those incentives? The FO finally does a contract that at the time everyone thought was a great contract (done just like the big boys in the NFL do them) and now because Fitz hit the incentives and we have to pay them, it's a bad contract?

Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[40yearfan]

This is in direct response to Joe's post.



You said it. I didn't make it up.

Stout, I swear you are going to the Chessy school of being able to misinterprete what people say simply to suit your own reasoning. How you got me saying we should have paid Fitz upfront from that quote baffles me. It certainly wasn't my intent. I think Fitz got a good contract for both sides.

Thank you Karl Rove. They 'technically' spent all of the available cap monies last year. They did NOT sign all the starters/depth players last year that they could afford. They overinflated contracts last year that specifically ate up our available cap. But you worry that the problem would have been pushed to this year? As Joe has already explained (and you apparently missed or ignored), we could have structured the contracts in a friendlier way and signed more players, with minimal impact upon this year's cap.

The bottom line is that they signed Fitz to a deal with incentives. The incentives kicked in and he now has almost a 17 million dollar cap figure. No good GM or FO would ever allow that to stand. Instead of arguing semantics over past mistakes with me, 40, talk about how Graves is going to take care of the mess he himself created. They are bells and whistles that all teams give out, and other teams somehow find a way not to have a 17 MILLION DOLLAR CAP FIGURE for a player, let alone a WR.

Stout it simply amazes me that you are now complaing about this contract. I didn't hear one word from you about it when it was written. Did you not want Fitz to hit those incentives? What would you have done different. I hear complaints, but I hear no resolutions. We can't go back in time, so doing something different 3 years ago isn't an option and if it was a problem then, why didn't anyone point that out?

I don't think this team has any more cap problems than the rest of the NFL. That alone should tell you that we have handled our cap situation as well as could be expected. The players salaries went up faster than the cap did, so what was expected to be a bonanza turned into a mild problem. So what if we can't get high priced free agents? If we can keep our core players together and draft well, we can still raise the level of play of this team and win football games.

 

[black]

Here's what I want to know about Graves genius: Exactly how much of an incentive did Fitz get for something as feasible about a #3 overall pick making the pro bowl in year 4 of his career? That will tell us a lot about the Cardinal's "GM's brillance".

Larrys' 2nd pro bowl. in 4 years.

 

[40yearfan]

First Paragraph. Tell that to the Redskins who have yet to have this cap catch up with them. Creative cap economics at its best. Its how teams can spend 115 Mill on player salaries in one season like the Pats did yet the cap is only 109 Mill. The cap with all of its nuances and loop holes is a completely different animal then the house market or any other market. Mostly because it is a certianty that the cap will go up every year and because of a 300 page 50% of which is archiac, NFLPA rule book. For example the LTBE or Likely to be earned bonus that allows teams to spend over the cap the following year and not get in trouble.

Last paragraph we are in complete agreement although how many people in the real world do yo know that have said "you know what I am going to make less just for the love of my job."

And what did it get the Redskins? They are the last team I would like the Cards to follow as an example.

The fact remains that we all thought the Cards would have plenty of cap space this year, but as it turns out, we were wrong. To bash Graves for that (and I'm not saying you are the one doing the bashing) is just plain silly. I believe he and the FO knew this was coming and that's why they did what they did last year. Even though we might not agree with how they did it, it does show that they had the foresight to do something to try and alleviate what could have been a major problem this year. The old Cardinals would have blindly stumbled into this year, realized they had a problem and started cutting their most expensive players. We are progressing.

 

[40yearfan]

Nah, bro, you got it all backwards. The money on his contract for this year and the next is not guaranteed. He gets hurt at any point, he will not see almost any of it. That's his incentive right there. Plus, if he signs an extension, it completely and utterly wipes out his old deal, so it's not like we have to give him more on top of it. So, if we give him a new deal with, say, a 32 million guaranteed bonus, and he blows out his knee the next day, he'll still get 32 million bucks. If he doesn't have the extension, I believe Joe said he'd get somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 million. Sure, he can take the chance he doens't get hurt seriously and cash in on that money, but why risk that when you can get the same amount PLUS a nice hefty salary with an extension?

Sound thinking Stout. I wish someone would explain that to Fitz and his agent.

 

[40yearfan]

Peyton = Fitz

Polian = Graves

Hmm....

Sorry. You lost me.

And it didn't take much effort.

 

[joeshmo]

I understand that. What I don't understand is why everybody now thinks that this is a bad contract. Didn't we want him to hit those incentives? The FO finally does a contract that at the time everyone thought was a great contract (done just like the big boys in the NFL do them) and now because Fitz hit the incentives and we have to pay them, it's a bad contract?

Doesn't make sense to me.

It doesnt make sense to you becuase that isnt the issue. At least not one I am talking about, others maybe.

Thats not it at all, not even close. They are not mad at the contract, it is a standard top 5 incentive laden draft pick contract. They are mad that we have the only GM in the league to have ever let that contract get this far without doing something about it(not to say they havent done anything yet becuase we still have 5 days). Name one other GM who has let a top 5 rookie contract like the standard one that Fitz got reach the point of letting their player count over 16 Mill against their cap?