Article on Shaun King

[conraddobler]

I've already told Conrad yesterday my worst case scenario fear for the outcome of drafting Fitz so high.

I think worst case scenario pre2005 draft we trade Anquan Boldin for the same reasons Denver traded Portis. They have the same agent, Quan is too nice so he hired a hitman to get him the money after seeing what Fitz was getting paid and how inferior Fitz's rookie year was to Quan's. No question Rosenhaus uses Fitz' contract in his negotiations.

My worst fear is instead of a healthy "rivalry" where they push each other to be the best, they develop an unhealthy rivalry, Green sides with his guy.

Ever since Quan hired Rosenhaus that fear has been percolating with me.

I wasn't going to spill the beans Russ you didn't have to go public.



I am and will remain in the we should have taken Roy Williams camp. I didn't think where we were in the draft justified any other pick as much as it did him.

Guessing even now that Josh was not going to make it, I still would have taken Williams but that's because I think he will be a monster for years and you can't say for sure on any of the QB's.

Ben turned out great so far but behind this oline with our running game, I don't know he'd do that well at all at first here.

 

[WildBB]

Well that's at least a plan and it makes sense given his record with QB's but still we don't have Moss or R Smith or for that matter a decent Oline.

All of those things are reasons why I didn't understand the playoff mania this year we are going exactly nowhere without those.

The Fitz thing ticks me off because it just smacks too much of nepotisim at it's highest order, sure the kid is good but the whole scenario and the way it happend was a complete con.

 

[Tangodnzr]

I'm with Russ in that Denny actually admitting he should have given King more reps before starting him comes as a huge surprise.

But what about "the rest of the question"? Why DID he start him the way he did? Was there any explanation for that?


I'm guessing probably not.

 

[WildBB]

That was the whole point of taking Fitz over a QB though right? If we did, we wouldn't need a franchise QB, that was Denny's whole plan.

The point is IF IT WAS ALL HOT AIR - making the playoffs and all, why not get your franchise situated at the MOST important position on the team.

I hope Breeze is the real deal. I know Ben is.

 

[Russ Smith]

The point is IF IT WAS ALL HOT AIR - making the playoffs and all, why not get your franchise situated at the MOST important position on the team.

I hope Breeze is the real deal. I know Ben is.

Gotcha, I agree, get the QB if you have the chance. My argument all along was if we draft Ben, and then in camp discover that Josh really is as good as Green said, we can still trade one of them later for a bundle of picks and or players.

 

[This_Guy]

I can stomach King being the QB, but what I can't is your petty defense of his horrible play yesterday. To say that he had nothing going for him yesterday is such a load of crap. He was careless with the ball yesterday and that was a large contributor to the loss.

Like Josh, I think it is obvious that there are many problems on this team and I am at least glad to know at this point that it is not all on the QB as many have suggested.

I dont expect him to play as bad as he did yesterday. I also dont expect him to throw for 300 yards a game as he did.

King is the starter now, but I doubt he will be back next year as a starter based solely on the fact that he does not have the arm strength to consistently throw the long ball. I think that was apparent yesterday. He can make the intermediate throws and certainly makes quick decisions.

I didn't defend his poor play yesterday and neither did Dennis Green. But Dennis Green and I can differentiate between a poor game and a poor player.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to enlighten me on what King had "going for him" yesterday? Running game? Nope, Emmitt had 28 yards. Protection? While they were good in stretches, there were a number of breakdowns. Receivers? Fitz drops a 3rd down and Boldin made mental errors. Coaching? Green didn't give him a week of practice and then seals the game by going for it on 4th down at the end of the 1st half. Rush defense? 6 yds/carry to a 6th string running back. Pass defense? Let Muhammed have his way and got no pass rush on Delhomme. Officiating? Called back the Boldin TD and the phantom grounding call.

And yet the Cardinals still ended up with 400 yards of offense.

Yes King will shake off the obvious rust and when that happens AND the rest of the team shows up to play, the Cardinals are a much better football team.

As Skkorp noted, this was somewhat inevitable and the question remains, why didn't this happen sooner? As I've noted, Green went hard after King in free agency and does believe in him, but I do think he believed in McCown too. Interesting to figure out how that exactly worked out and why. Hopefully, King can get up to speed by next week and the Cardinals can get back on the playoff track.

Seattle doesn't look too hot and the Rams will falter, it is still right there.

 

[pete]

King is willing to take more risks than McCown. He will have more production, but he will make more mistakes doing it.

 

[Tangodnzr]

What struck me yesterday, and again today, especially after reading a couple of the above posts is I see Deja Vous happening all over again.....and probably the biggest reason I have never been a big Dennis Green fan.

Look at what's starting to happen here now.....a repeat of some of the negative things that tore the vikings up.]

Dissension among the players themselves.

Remember the old soap opera days when between Moss, Reed, Carter, and Culpepper, open hostility even started breaking out on the playing field on game day.

And what did Denny do. Nadda, zip, nothing. He plays and caters to select, hand picked players, which eventually grows really stale with the rest of the team.

I see the embryonic stages of the same scenario starting to develop here.

Quan was Mr. perfect last year. Great athlete, great attitude, everything.

So far he and Fitz seem to be doing OK together, but I also noticed on more than one occasion both were in the same general area on some pass playes.
The one where Quan literally broke up that pass in the end zone that seemed targeted for Fitz, can't have overjoyed Fitz too much.

Already we are seeing the rumblings of a talented kid that could set the world on fire, but youthful ego derails it if not properly managed/coached.....
Anyone remember a similar phenom the Cards drafted that was tearing the league up to begin with but burst his own bubble?
I think his name was David Boston.

I think this team has come to one of its first really critical points now.

If things continue as they appear to be headed right now, we could also be looking at deja vous all over again also Buddy Ryan style with all the dissension among team members themselves.

To put it in Denny/Dubya-speak... Either you are with me or you are against me. If you're with me, here's the key to the mercedez, and if your against me, sit your ass in the north parking lot from now on.

I wonder just exactly how many players really are buying into Green's shenanigans at this point in time.

 

[conraddobler]

The point is IF IT WAS ALL HOT AIR - making the playoffs and all, why not get your franchise situated at the MOST important position on the team.

I hope Breeze is the real deal. I know Ben is.

I agree it is tempting in today's NFL to take the QB especially if they are there because they aren't always but saying you know someone is the real deal before they take a real NFL snap is really really risky.

QB's aren't all that hard to find if you want to pay for them. You can get a proven one but you have to pay through the nose, you generally do that when you have a team worthy of spending that to take your shot.

This team wasn't going anywhere yet and suprised most, basically because our division imploded.

Brett Farve wasn't drafted by the Packers, Tom Brady wasn't a first round pick you don't have to go down that road to get a QB.

DG only went down that road once before and got fired basically before it paid off for him.

Mike Vick goes down Dan Reeves fired,

Manning isn't playing for the coach that drafted him.

It goes both ways there are examples like McNabb that are doing well but look what they had to do to get over the hump they had to sell out to get TO which is almost as bad as signing a QB.

Big Ben and Pittburg were a match made in heaven. Good to great young QB meets solid NFL team in need of leader.

That's not us.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Hmmm ...another quarterback genius.

Another so-called Cardinal fan giving up on a season when we're 4-6 with four home games left, and two on the road, where we still control our own destiny, in the playoff chase.

Jake Plummer is now 16-5 since he was run out of here by genius' like Mr. ED.

It's always about the stupid quarterback.

It brings to mind, that back in the 70s there was whole city of QB genius' who wanted the home team to rid themselves of their rookie QB... who went through an initial 6 TD - 24 Int. season.

Had the team showed the same impatience they quite concievably would have missed out on 4 Super Bowl victories and seeing the young man fulfill a Hall of Fame career in their city....

His name: Terry Bradshaw

(Now I can hear some say: JOSH McCOWN is no Terry Bradshaw, etc.. etc. and my answer is that unless you are a psychic (and I want proof)

HOW THE HELL CAN ONE KNOW?

 

[Russ Smith]

Tango for Quan to go David Boston would be a shock. I made one omission in my worst case scenario, the difference in what happened with Portis, and what i fear could happen with Quan is Portis FORCED his way out of Denver. he threatened to hold out, went public, and made such a nuisance of himself they were forced to get rid of him.

I think if Quan is traded it will be against his wishes, and because Green will side with his guy, Fitz, if there really is some conflict. and I think there will be when Quan's agent says you're paying #11 how much and he's done how much? QUan at his current pace will catch 50 balls this year for just about 500 yards, not great, but not horrible for a guy coming off knee surgery with an unstable QB.

Quan and Fitz are simply great kids, neither one of them has me concerned about a Boston situation, but I do think if handled incorrectly we could end up seeing Green pushing for us to move Quan to "save money" and acquire talent at other positions. Remember, one of his first official moves as a Cardinals coach was to move Quan to a new position.

 

[conraddobler]

It brings to mind, that back in the 70s there was whole city of QB genius' who wanted the home team to rid themselves of their rookie QB... who went through an initial 6 TD - 24 Int. season.

Had the team showed the same impatience they quite concievably would have missed out on 4 Super Bowl victories and seeing the young man fulfill a Hall of Fame career in their city....

His name: Terry Bradshaw

(Now I can hear some say: JOSH McCOWN is no Terry Bradshaw, etc.. etc. and my answer is that unless you are a psychic (and I want proof)

HOW THE HELL CAN ONE KNOW?

My point exactly some on here give a QB about 3 reps and then make the judgement that they will never play in this league.

Psst, it is a scientific fact that not all people grasp things as complex as an NFL offense at the same rate.

It's not rocket science though and it could be reasonable to assume that somewhere in there the light bulb will go on and you will get a good QB assuming the physical tools are there.

It dosen't always go on but again how can you tell it won't? Someone with McCowns tools should get more time than others because the upside is huge if the bulb does go on you have an all pro.

It wasn't that long ago that QB's were given much more tolerance their first year of starting. a 4-5 record with two previous wins would not get a QB benched before the 90's. Especially on a team as bad as we had been.

Maybe that's progress or maybe it's not.

 

[Russ Smith]

It brings to mind, that back in the 70s there was whole city of QB genius' who wanted the home team to rid themselves of their rookie QB... who went through an initial 6 TD - 24 Int. season.

Had the team showed the same impatience they quite concievably would have missed out on 4 Super Bowl victories and seeing the young man fulfill a Hall of Fame career in their city....

His name: Terry Bradshaw

(Now I can hear some say: JOSH McCOWN is no Terry Bradshaw, etc.. etc. and my answer is that unless you are a psychic (and I want proof)

HOW THE HELL CAN ONE KNOW?

you can't, but here's a complete list of players taken before Terry Bradshaw in that draft.




To list the number of players taken ahead of Josh would be a very long post and a lot of work. Bradshaw wasn't taken out of left field either he was not a surprise pick.

Just for fun, the 5th pick that year.... Al Cowlings, yes that Al Cowlings of white Bronco fame.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Russ, overall I have to generally agree with your comments.

I think, or certainly hope at least, that you are indeed correct that Fitz is basically a "'good kid".
But right now I have to admit there's a couple of "little things" that could be harbingers of things to come too.

Like the incident that was reported in miami about blowing off the kids seeking his autograph.

or more significantly, watching some of the non verbal dynamics that are going on during the game.

It seems like we've started seeing more and more allowances for little displays of temper tantrums when receivers don't always get the ball when they think they should.
Nothing really major yet, but those little rumblings have started to appear more and more.

Now some of that I think is normal and good. I think any decent receiver worth his salt should basically have the attitude that the team would always do better if they utilized him and his talents more. If they don't, they probably shouldn't be on the roster.

Its basic human nature, starting with when kids first play the game.
Gimme the ball, gimmie the ball.

I just sense that Green may be allowing some of these receivers to scapegoat Josh, a little more than they should be allowed.

Today, people are posting that Josh and King have never gotten along. That King evidently shows no respect or cooperation with Josh what so ever....and once again, the rolly polly fat man sits and allows it to happen, while at the same time continuing to display in other areas that he is the unquestioned boss.

Typical Dennis Green hypocrisy.

 

[john h]

http://arizonasportsfans.com/storypage.php?Story_ID=528&Category=cardinals

I liked the article. The one differece of opinion is that there will 3-4 good QB every year like this past year. I do not think so and if there are we may not be in a position to get one with our usual 5th of 6th place in the draft order. There is almost every year a QB who changes teams and does ressurect his carreer. Maybe we will get lucky and get on. I would not be adverse to Bledsloe. Clearly an aging veteran is not working for Dallas because the aging Vinny is worse than our QB's. How Dallas could cut a young Carter for an aging Vinny escapes me. My plan would be to draft a RB and QB #1 in the draft depending on which had the most promise and use #2 to take the other. More than likely it will take 2-3 years to develop this guy and in the meantime we need to be smart and get lucky to find a QB to get the ball to potentially the best receiving corps in the league. Finding a QB is a ABSOLUTE must or else our draft of great receivers is all for naught. I have not given up on our MIchigan QB as I have never seen him. Hopefully we will see him for a few quarters this year or else we will never know what we have. We have the nucleas of a good defense which should get better. I am concerned about coaching and playcalling. We have an offensive line coach who has never coached and some of our play calls leave me wondering. I am still wondering about the going for 3 points Sunday when we were down by 21 or 28 and in the red zone? Why? That is just one of many strange calls including all those 5 -6 yds passes by Josh when we need 15 yds. At least King put the darn ball down field even if they were intercepted. I am no fan of KIng but expect him to be better this week if he can get all the reps during the week and shake off 3 years of rust. The guy did have a history of winning some critical games which were important some years ago so he has done it for a period at least once. Still along with McCown I do not think these guys are anywhere near the answer. Bledsloe just might be the sleeper you think he could be. We have a lot of teams that will be looking for QB's next year so whoever our team has in mind I hope they act promptly and do not fool around and let the better ones get picked over before we make a move. I have no idea what to expect from our team the remainder of the year regardless of who starts a QB as that is only part of the problem. Wonder how many of the coaches Green will retain? I bet not many.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

So Tango is watching for "non-verbal dynamics" on the field . I guess that explains it.

 

[john h]

Hmmm ...another quarterback genius.

Another so-called Cardinal fan giving up on a season when we're 4-6 with four home games left, and two on the road, where we still control our own destiny, in the playoff chase.

Jake Plummer is now 16-5 since he was run out of here by genius' like Mr. ED.

It's always about the stupid quarterback.

Jake was going to leave here no matter what for the big dollars and a better team. With his play at the time the Bidwills were not going to shell out $40 mil and we would have all called it insane.

 

[Tangodnzr]

So Tango is watching for "non-verbal dynamics" on the field . I guess that explains it.

If you have no clue of what I'm talking about, then it would probably be better if you just remained silent.

 

[john h]

My opinion differs a bit from Ed's but the end result is the same.

When Shaun King got to start, he was given more shotgun plays and more deep patterns wre called. McCown had a more limited package to work with. I think Denny Green had planned all along to go to Shaun King sometime his season but couldn't do it earlier because King had a horrible series of camps.

King is Denny Green's choice, not McCown. Statements to the contrary were nonsense. And McCown and King knew it all along and never interracted. They avoided each other. Couldn't stand each other.

The real audition for QB is now. Denny Green liked King coming out of college and the next 6 games will tell us if King can play. I'm glad we finally got to it. McCown will be someplace else next year.

I hope King succeeds because McCown is now past history with Denny Green.

King should have had more reps in practice and Green admitted that this morning. So drop the McCown hpes, they are finished.

I thought the oline actually pass blocked well yesterday but King was holding the ball too long. Rust? Probably. Give him a chance.

Above all, we need aa real RB. Then our QB will have a chance.

Pretty much agree with you post Skorp.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

If you have no clue of what I'm talking about, then it would probably be better if you just remained silent.

Why is that? You probably could still tell what i'm going to post by my non-verbal dynamics that are prevalent as i sit in front of my computer.

 

[Tangodnzr]

My opinion differs a bit from Ed's but the end result is the same.

When Shaun King got to start, he was given more shotgun plays and more deep patterns wre called. McCown had a more limited package to work with. I think Denny Green had planned all along to go to Shaun King sometime his season but couldn't do it earlier because King had a horrible series of camps.

King is Denny Green's choice, not McCown. Statements to the contrary were nonsense. And McCown and King knew it all along and never interracted. They avoided each other. Couldn't stand each other.

The real audition for QB is now. Denny Green liked King coming out of college and the next 6 games will tell us if King can play. I'm glad we finally got to it. McCown will be someplace else next year.

I hope King succeeds because McCown is now past history with Denny Green.

King should have had more reps in practice and Green admitted that this morning. So drop the McCown hpes, they are finished.
I thought the oline actually pass blocked well yesterday but King was holding the ball too long. Rust? Probably. Give him a chance.

Above all, we need aa real RB. Then our QB will have a chance.

Sorry, Skkorp, but I can't resist this one:

I sure hope your comments that I highlighted here are as accurate as your postings in the past about how worthless Adrian Wilson is and wouldn't be around either.

 

[Pariah]

If you have no clue of what I'm talking about, then it would probably be better if you just remained silent.

then you'd never have any replies to your posts, and what fun would that be?

 

[john h]

I think this was the plan from the get go and I got somewhat jobbed by DG in trusting why he kept starting Josh.

It makes sense that he just used Josh to get Fitz, it makes sense that he may have really given Josh a shot but never had any real confidence in him like he spouted off about.

The shotgun snaps tell the whole story we never got a straight answer all year on that one then walla King gets them.

Josh is done here and I think he could make someone a solid backup somewhere else but that's about it unless he really matures and learns the game more.

He dosen't read much of anything in the time frame it needs to be done in. It's not like he's Peyton Manning just bursting with great reads but unable to execute, the blame is his and he could have made it impossible to sit him if he had really been good, he wasn't and it's move on time.

Fitz better be awesome cause Denny isn't through working out the reprecusssions of that one yet.

King got the shotgun snaps because he never told the coach he was "uncomfortable" in the shotgun. When I heard McCown say that I lost all hope for him as this is the NFL No starting QB to should tell the coach he is not comfortable in the gun. That is a basic tool of any QB or offense. When King was under center he sure dropped back a lot faster than Josh and seemed to drop back further. He was 2nd in the league on yds passing but of course had the intercepts. I think there were two other top passers this week that threw 3 interceptions and they were not just starting their first game in 3 years. I sure would like to be a fly on the wall and listen to what our receivers are saying about the two QB's. There were a couple of blitzes were our inexperienced receivers did not recoginze the blitz and did not cut off their long routes as they should have and allowed the QB to make a hot throw. Clearly the receivers and QB had not practiced much together and were out of sync. On some of King's short throws they were much to hot to handle. He had one TD in the bag which a clearly open Fitz would have caught in the endzone when our other receiver made a high jump and just tipped it out of his hands. One of our receivers was behind the defender and King did not arch the ball but through a line drive which could have been a TD had he arched it. One TD called back because of holding. His arching passes which looked like they were just up for grabs made some sense because of our big receivers who could outjump the defenders. One interception was off a tipped pass. King was slammed big time when Emmitt missed his block. Our first opening drive was going good and Fitz failed to catch a ball right in his mid section uncontested for a first down in Panther territory. That was really big for it stopped our drive and the Panthers immediately marched down the field and scored. Next Sunday will be interesting.

 

[clif]

Wow I don't know whether to choke on my sandwich from the idea that Green prefers King, but played Josh 9 games, or rejoice that Dennis Green actually ADMITTED he made a mistake not giving King more reps?

If King was the choice, how come Green annointed Josh the starter back in February when he cut Blake? And how come again before the draft WITH King signed, he proclaimed Josh the starter and compared him to Favre? Just doesn't hold up that he planned all along to go with King.

I think he knew he was heavily overrating Josh, because he needed to justify not picking a QB. He hoped Josh would pan out, but signed King as a plan B if he didn't pan out.

I do agree about RB's, and frankly I agree with Lex from last week if our OL could run block so we could bring safeties up, our passing game would be better.

I agree that if DG wanted King all along, then Josh should not have been in there for 9 games.

what a load of bull.

Something just does not make sense with all this

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Today, people are posting that Josh and King have never gotten along. That King evidently shows no respect or cooperation with Josh what so ever....and once again, the rolly polly fat man sits and allows it to happen, while at the same time continuing to display in other areas that he is the unquestioned boss.

Typical Dennis Green hypocrisy.

Am I missing something here....

People are posting, yada, yada... and Green should be doing something about this......