Attention Navarre defenders you are now on the clock.

[conraddobler]

Well since the season is almost officially over. I am still waiting for the "You know this might sound crazy" post about our miniscule mathematical playoff hopes I guess we can all agree that we are now auditioning Navarre.

Well not all of us agree that is even worthwhile but it certainly can deflect the blame off of DG for taking Fitz and not either Roy Williams or Big Ben.

Those of you who love Navarre just watch our WR's run routes especially the deep ones. If you notice the other dude with them that looks like a conjoined twin that's actually the defender, you can tell by the uniforms.

Just bring up the time issue and we need to see this or that and presto you can feel good about games we have no chance in all the while not giving Josh a second thought.

I was excited in the first half about Navarre too until the defense made it's first adjustment and decided not to blitz him. I assumed like they did that would be a good idea except I didn't know he could release the ball that fast.

However once the defense figured that out they went to phase two make him beat them in coverage.

They all went ahhhh that's better and honestly I saw nothing from then on even giving me a glimmer of hope he'll learn to beat that.

 

[Ryanwb]

nice diatribe

 

[Dback Jon]

Sounds like you were expecting Navarre to turn into the 2004 version of Peyton Manning in his first game.

 

[conraddobler]

Sounds like you were expecting Navarre to turn into the 2004 version of Peyton Manning in his first game.

No I expected Craig Krentzle and that's what I got.

 

[D-Dogg]

How in the world can you say that? Almost every rookie QB playing has problems reading coverages. The fact that John is unfazed by the blitz, despite being a "statue" is huge.

The ability to read defenses will come to this guy...he's smart.

I don't know if he'll be a starter in this league, but he could be. At worst, he'll be a serviceable backup. Josh we already know is a backup at best.

Josh is off the clock. Why is it an issue for John in reading coverages, when the fact that Josh can't read them either not an issue? I'd rather have a guy throw it in there and try, than keep the ball and take the loss. Brett Favre throws INTs, but he takes chances. He has huge games, and he has bad games. Not to say Navarre is anywhere near Favre's league, but he's closer than Josh is...

 

[Dback Jon]

No I expected Craig Krentzle and that's what I got.

So we should just give up on him after one game, and put into your buddy McCown, who has had many chances?

 

[conraddobler]

How in the world can you say that? Almost every rookie QB playing has problems reading coverages. The fact that John is unfazed by the blitz, despite being a "statue" is huge.

The ability to read defenses will come to this guy...he's smart.

I don't know if he'll be a starter in this league, but he could be. At worst, he'll be a serviceable backup. Josh we already know is a backup at best.

Josh is off the clock. Why is it an issue for John in reading coverages, when the fact that Josh can't read them either not an issue? I'd rather have a guy throw it in there and try, than keep the ball and take the loss. Brett Favre throws INTs, but he takes chances. He has huge games, and he has bad games. Not to say Navarre is anywhere near Favre's league, but he's closer than Josh is...

What about 4 picks all when the game was reasonably close leads you to believe that is was just reading coverages.

First it was timing now it's reads?

He threw the ball to the wrong people. Yes rookies make mistakes and he will get more chances and after that we can revisit the issue.

He can have the rest of the season as far as I am concerned but I don't agree it serves much purpose.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

No I expected Craig Krentzle and that's what I got.

Speaking of Krenzel, his replacement Chad Hutchinson started for the Bears today and tore it up to the tune of 18/30 214 yards with three TDs and no INTs.

 

[Dback Jon]

Speaking of Krenzel, his replacement Chad Hutchinson started for the Bears today and tore it up to the tune of 18/30 214 yards with three TDs and no INTs.

Didn't Dallas cut him for Vinny Testaverde?

 

[conraddobler]

So we should just give up on him after one game, and put into your buddy McCown, who has had many chances?

He shouldn't have even started one game.

Neither should have King.

In hindsight it wasn't so much the QB as the WR's as I have said all along.

What Josh did wasn't much but he wasn't working with much. I do not for one second think that most any QB would do a whole lot better throwing TD's to this bunch.

Basically everyone got impatient with Josh, heck I did too but in hindsight it appears I was right that it is more the WR's than the QB. Two other QB's are well on there way to proving that.

One QB didn't throw picks, like he was told, he just ran the car as junkie as it was and he got benched during a win streak.

Brilliant.

 

[CaliCards]

No I expected Craig Krentzle and that's what I got.

oh, this was uncalled for....... play nice.

 

[jerryp]

So is this like the thread where everyone who supports Navarre or at least the concept of giving him a few more games steps up so they can be the subject of "call out" posts?

Are we to bookmark this thread, so next week when Navarre throws a pick, or misses an open receiver, we can come back here, look at who supported him, then start threads specifically to goad them into an argument while making no meaningful or insightful statements of our own?

Awesome!

command-D

 

[conraddobler]

So is this like the thread where everyone who supports Navarre or at least the concept of giving him a few more games steps up so they can be the subject of "call out" posts?

Are we to bookmark this thread, so next week when Navarre throws a pick, or misses an open receiver, we can come back here, look at who supported him, then start threads specifically to goad them into an argument while making no meaningful or insightful statements of our own?

Awesome!

command-D

I never ever post previous comments and call out posters, I am not that type.

I am simply frustrated at everyone saying let Navarre finish out the season while continuing to spew out that Josh sucks.

Josh sucks as compared to what?

The other two QB's aren't exactly making him look foolish are they. Neither of them has a win so exactly what was the reasoning behind his benching?

We were told by DG Navarre gives us the best chance to win and I say that is a load of horse dung.

It's B.S. of the highest order and I am tired of just swallowing that.

Josh gives us the best chance to win if you want to audition QB's say that but don't insult everyones intelligence by saying what Navarre did was better than anything Josh was capable of.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

He shouldn't have even started one game.

Neither should have King.

In hindsight it wasn't so much the QB as the WR's as I have said all along.

What Josh did wasn't much but he wasn't working with much. I do not for one second think that most any QB would do a whole lot better throwing TD's to this bunch.

Basically everyone got impatient with Josh, heck I did too but in hindsight it appears I was right that it is more the WR's than the QB. Two other QB's are well on there way to proving that.

One QB didn't throw picks, like he was told, he just ran the car as junkie as it was and he got benched during a win streak.

Brilliant.

Absolutely on your side on this one conrad (which might be a bad thing because I can't spell Navarre).

I'm definitley thinking that we would have won this game without FOUR more turnovers from the QB position today.

AND McCown with one of his average games against the Jets, probably would have even won that game!

Heck, McCown might have even improved a little with two more starts under his belt.

But we'll never know now.

 

[conraddobler]

Absolutely on your side on this one conrad (which might be a bad thing because I can't spell Navarre).

I'm definitley thinking that we would have won this game without FOUR more turnovers from the QB position today.

AND McCown with one of his average games against the Jets, probably would have even won that game!

Heck, McCown might have even improved a little with two more starts under his belt.

But we'll never know now.

Harry basically summed it up on his thread about how no one would look good with this offense.

I agree and I wish Josh well where ever he goes.

I like the kid, I don't know why but I do and I think he's done here but he wouldn't be the only QB to have played for the Cardinals to have that be a good thing for him.

DG ticks me off because of his insitance on Fitz we are going to be staring down the gun barrel of trading Boldin and still looking for a QB.

Harry hit the nail on the head about DG bringing in very good picks but he royally showed his dark side with the Fitz pick and it somewhat tarnishes what didn't have to be tarnished.

 

[AmareFan]

two words,,,Play Calling....horriblle...what is Navarre supposed to do with play calling like that?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I like the kid, I don't know why but I do
.

Because he doesn't constantly throw gut-wrenching, game-losing interceptions. Something we've had to live with since the departure of Lomax.

McCown at least gave us a chance to win. King and Navarre did not.

But, since the season is officially in the toilet, we may as well start Navarre the rest of the way.

 

[jerryp]

I never ever post previous comments and call out posters, I am not that type.

I am simply frustrated at everyone saying let Navarre finish out the season while continuing to spew out that Josh sucks.

Josh sucks as compared to what?

The other two QB's aren't exactly making him look foolish are they. Neither of them has a win so exactly what was the reasoning behind his benching?

We were told by DG Navarre gives us the best chance to win and I say that is a load of horse dung.

It's B.S. of the highest order and I am tired of just swallowing that.

Josh gives us the best chance to win if you want to audition QB's say that but don't insult everyones intelligence by saying what Navarre did was better than anything Josh was capable of.

First, conrad, I know you're not that type, but many others are. I guess my frustration is that I view this forum about once a week now (on gamedays) and it never fails that 1 or 2 of the top 10 posts are "calling out" some other forum member. That's not even counting the threads that start as one thing, then post #2 is "Why don't you ask so and so, he's like <insert player>'s brother or something the way he supports him." and then it degenerates from there.

On to football. Navarre finishing season and Josh sucking. Josh McCown sucks. The problem is a lot of people on this board have a hard time understanding that how much McCown sucks is in no way related to how much any other QB sucks. An absurd amount of people will automatically use the conceptual filters in their head to turn "McCown sucks." into "I support Navarre." How this happens, I don't know, but I bet alcohol is involved. But McCown can't win us games consistently. Simply not losing them isn't enough for a team with a weak offensive line and weak run game. Mistake free, unexciting QB's are for good running teams, we are anything but that.

Second, I see where you are coming from in that while we were not getting winning performance we were also (minus Atlanta) not getting game losing performance from him either. My problem is, most people make arguments that are based on personal bias (against players and other forum members).

If you said "At this point in the season, we are still playoff viable, we just have to win our last three games division games and get a little lucky with other teams beating the Rams and Seahawks. McCown has seen all three of these teams live, he's beaten one, his defense let him down against another, and the third he did ok against. I say we give him the next two games (SF and STL) to solidify himself as starter. If we lose to STL we are officially done, then we can start Navarre, but right now we aren't eliminated yet."

That would be an awesome argument for McCown to get the next two starts. Objective facts, while conceding if he can't get it done the next two games he sits. But you rarely see that here. Instead it's manlove this manlove that, because people deep down know they can draw support for their view by simply attacking someone with the opposite view.

About what Denny told you. You need to flush your headgear of the idea any coach is ever going to be honest, doubly so for Denny. Getting upset over what Denny says would be like if you told me the Sun was going to rise in the West tomorrow and then I get pissed because it rises in the East. What reason would I have to believe that anyway? Why would I completely ignore my own intuition and just believe what is told to me? Why isn't this same thought process applied to what Denny Green says? He's auditioning QB's, everyone knows that. What business conrad, what business do you have even believing otherwise? Because Denny Green said so? You're bringing it on yourself man. If you're visiting the **********, you can't complain when she shoves a ball gag in your mouth, get it?

In fact, I'll go one further. Every single time you tune into a football game, your intelligence is being insulted provided you have the sound on (i.e. you can hear the announcers). Where's the outrage over that?

I don't bother watching sports related programming anymore beyond the games themselves because of this. It's all hype. You won't function in the future of society unless you can filter the hype. If the reason why this board is always so negative is because of the lies they've been told, people need to get real.

In closing, conrad, I feel your frustrations, I just think the "You're on the clock" type posts are just an invitation to personal attacks and the same arguments over and over. But as long as people take what Denny says as gospel, we'll have the same old "I'm pissed cause Denny lied to me, ME!" laden posts with little to no arguments backing them up.

Long enough for you? Good, now you have two reasons to be pissed.

 

[conraddobler]

First, conrad, I know you're not that type, but many others are. I guess my frustration is that I view this forum about once a week now (on gamedays) and it never fails that 1 or 2 of the top 10 posts are "calling out" some other forum member. That's not even counting the threads that start as one thing, then post #2 is "Why don't you ask so and so, he's like <insert player>'s brother or something the way he supports him." and then it degenerates from there.

On to football. Navarre finishing season and Josh sucking. Josh McCown sucks. The problem is a lot of people on this board have a hard time understanding that how much McCown sucks is in no way related to how much any other QB sucks. An absurd amount of people will automatically use the conceptual filters in their head to turn "McCown sucks." into "I support Navarre." How this happens, I don't know, but I bet alcohol is involved. But McCown can't win us games consistently. Simply not losing them isn't enough for a team with a weak offensive line and weak run game. Mistake free, unexciting QB's are for good running teams, we are anything but that.

Second, I see where you are coming from in that while we were not getting winning performance we were also (minus Atlanta) not getting game losing performance from him either. My problem is, most people make arguments that are based on personal bias (against players and other forum members).

If you said "At this point in the season, we are still playoff viable, we just have to win our last three games division games and get a little lucky with other teams beating the Rams and Seahawks. McCown has seen all three of these teams live, he's beaten one, his defense let him down against another, and the third he did ok against. I say we give him the next two games (SF and STL) to solidify himself as starter. If we lose to STL we are officially done, then we can start Navarre, but right now we aren't eliminated yet."

That would be an awesome argument for McCown to get the next two starts. Objective facts, while conceding if he can't get it done the next two games he sits. But you rarely see that here. Instead it's manlove this manlove that, because people deep down know they can draw support for their view by simply attacking someone with the opposite view.

About what Denny told you. You need to flush your headgear of the idea any coach is ever going to be honest, doubly so for Denny. Getting upset over what Denny says would be like if you told me the Sun was going to rise in the West tomorrow and then I get pissed because it rises in the East. What reason would I have to believe that anyway? Why would I completely ignore my own intuition and just believe what is told to me? Why isn't this same thought process applied to what Denny Green says? He's auditioning QB's, everyone knows that. What business conrad, what business do you have even believing otherwise? Because Denny Green said so? You're bringing it on yourself man. If you're visiting the **********, you can't complain when she shoves a ball gag in your mouth, get it?

In fact, I'll go one further. Every single time you tune into a football game, your intelligence is being insulted provided you have the sound on (i.e. you can hear the announcers). Where's the outrage over that?

I don't bother watching sports related programming anymore beyond the games themselves because of this. It's all hype. You won't function in the future of society unless you can filter the hype. If the reason why this board is always so negative is because of the lies they've been told, people need to get real.

In closing, conrad, I feel your frustrations, I just think the "You're on the clock" type posts are just an invitation to personal attacks and the same arguments over and over. But as long as people take what Denny says as gospel, we'll have the same old "I'm pissed cause Denny lied to me, ME!" laden posts with little to no arguments backing them up.

Long enough for you? Good, now you have two reasons to be pissed.

I don't worry too much about what others say although the personal attacks go both ways on this issue.

I don't think everyone agrees Josh sucks. I don't know of another QB who would flourish on this team and if they did they'd certainly be almost a lock for the Pro Bowl.

My opinion is that the problems on this team are far from being only the QB and as such I reject the arguement that Josh sucks I would say who knows but saying he sucks to me IMO is basically blaming him for more ills than he deserves.

He didn't throw picks which seems to me a solid alternative to winging it in futility to a slow WR core with a minimal run game backing you up.

As far as being ticked about this or that. Mostly that is only for Sunday's other times I don't take any of this too seriously it's a game. I use the Cardinals as a nice benchmark to realize my life has many more important things in it. This is a diversion nothing more and whatever DG or any other coach does is only an irritant not a major life problem for me.

I probably could have chosen a different name for the thread but then again it's not that big of a deal because I am not really calling out anyone except those that constantly say let's see what player x can do when player x is throwing to the same WR's.

Maybe if Josh was starting on the Colts or the Steelers or Patriots things would be different and then you could say wow he's got a solid cast and he won't throw the ball he stinks. That isn't the situation he's in though.

I've stated my opinion and a large amount of people disagree and that's fine all I wanted to do was get it off my chest.

Josh is done here so since the season is done bring on Navarre and let's see if he's a solid backup candidate.

 

[ajcardfan]

Josh is done here so since the season is done bring on Navarre and let's see if he's a solid backup candidate.

Your manlove for Navarre is disgusting!

 

[conraddobler]

Your manlove for Navarre is disgusting!

Now thats funny!

 

[john h]

Well since the season is almost officially over. I am still waiting for the "You know this might sound crazy" post about our miniscule mathematical playoff hopes I guess we can all agree that we are now auditioning Navarre.

Well not all of us agree that is even worthwhile but it certainly can deflect the blame off of DG for taking Fitz and not either Roy Williams or Big Ben.

Those of you who love Navarre just watch our WR's run routes especially the deep ones. If you notice the other dude with them that looks like a conjoined twin that's actually the defender, you can tell by the uniforms.

Just bring up the time issue and we need to see this or that and presto you can feel good about games we have no chance in all the while not giving Josh a second thought.

I was excited in the first half about Navarre too until the defense made it's first adjustment and decided not to blitz him. I assumed like they did that would be a good idea except I didn't know he could release the ball that fast.

However once the defense figured that out they went to phase two make him beat them in coverage.

They all went ahhhh that's better and honestly I saw nothing from then on even giving me a glimmer of hope he'll learn to beat that.

This is not about Navarre defenders or McCown or King defenders it is just about a really bad team no matter who is playing QB. This team has no running game or a legitmate starting RB. I doubt any back on this team could start anywhere else. We have a few promising rookies and a few good guys who have been here for a few years. Green managed to cut a few guys who would be of help to this team and neglacted to recognize we did not have a QB or RB. I seriously wonder if Green has any plan whatsoever. At this point I do not like what he has done with the team or the coaches he has brought in. We lead the NFL in penalities by a wide margin. A lot of this comes from a lack of coaching. Once again the play calling was poor in my opinion. Our so called strong suite (receivers) played no part in our offense. Aside from the QB we must address the running game in the off season. We have so many needs at this point I do not see us turning this team around in two year. Maybe three if we draft good and manage to sign some decent FA but looking at Green i do not see any stampede of guys who would want to play for him. He seems all over the board with players. Firing players and coaches, bringing guys up and down, changing QB's. moving guys to different positions. This has all the earmarking of a coach who is lost.

 

[jerryp]

My opinion is that the problems on this team are far from being only the QB and as such I reject the arguement that Josh sucks I would say who knows but saying he sucks to me IMO is basically blaming him for more ills than he deserves.

He didn't throw picks which seems to me a solid alternative to winging it in futility to a slow WR core with a minimal run game backing you up.

This is exactly what I am talking about. You are absolutely correct, there are more problems on this team than just QB. So we can ignore the clowns that think otherwise.

But where your argument totally breaks down is where you say you reject that Josh sucks because there are other problems on the team. Then you go on to say that saying Josh sucks is blaming him for more than he deserves. Assigning a rating and assigning blame are two totally different things. Saying he sucks is a rating, saying he cost us the game is blaming. I rated him, I blamed him for nothing.

That right there, is the exact mentality that floods this board that I am talking about. In fact, I even said we have no run game. But Conrad, isn't it possible that we have problems with out RB and WR units AND Josh sucks? Isn't that possible?

Why is it when I say "Josh sucks." that turns into "I blame him for losing" despite the fact I pointed out in my post that I don't think we have any run game whatsoever and no good offensive line.

Come on, isn't it possible he sucks AND everything else you said is true? I'm not asking you to say it's so, I just want you to admit it's possible for him to suck despite the rest of the offense not playing up to par.

And I agree, not throwing picks was his strength, but like I said before, if that's all you want from him you have to be able to run the ball and we can't.

My criticism of him is that he is too afraid to throw the ball passed the first down mark. Go to footballoutsiders.com and search for the article called "Complete Failures". It basically is an article about how short passes or even passes for negative yards pad a QB's stats but do nothing to win the game. If a pass is thrown for two yards on first down, it is a complete failure. If you throw a swing pass and it's blown up for a loss it's a failure, if you throw on third down and it doesn't get to the yard markers, failure. Guess who was number one in that category last year. Anquan Boldin. Roughly 1/4 of his catches last year were either extremely short on first/second down or failed to get the first down on third or fourth down.

That's McCown in a nutshell, and that's why I think he sucks. I think if FO redid this article with this years stats, McCown would have the lead in raw number of failed completes despite not starting in three weeks.

All his fault? Nope. The playcalling sucks, I was at the Bills game and I could understand running constantly but not the same run every time like it appeared they were doing, and at Takeo Spikes no less.

The WR's are too slow, we have no speed in our RB corp either. The secondary isn't that good, and I have a feeling that most of our coverage is when the pass rush is clicking, when it fails, so does the pass defense.

Special teams beyond Rackers is damn joke. We're just lucky that like the only two worse special teams are in our division.

So clearly I can see the problems with this team. I mean damn dude, you can't play a franchise in NFL 2k5 without seeing the personnel problems. I still think McCown sucks. That is a statement that stands on it's own. I'm not comparing him to King, or Navarre, or Manning, or Lomax, or whomever. I am comparing him to in my mind what an NFL QB needs to do at a minimum and that's it. But if we're going to ever have meaningful discussion on this board people need to stop taking what others say and turning it into something else.

I'm not trying to attack you personally (and I thank you for not taking it that way) but this is what I am talking about. As a board, we need to start reading and understanding what people are saying instead of taking a single statement such as "Josh sucks." and inferring several other things from it.

Wow dude, you make me wordy.

 

[john h]

What about 4 picks all when the game was reasonably close leads you to believe that is was just reading coverages.

First it was timing now it's reads?

He threw the ball to the wrong people. Yes rookies make mistakes and he will get more chances and after that we can revisit the issue.

He can have the rest of the season as far as I am concerned but I don't agree it serves much purpose.

I think Manning threw 5 intercepts his first start with the Giants. Navarre had a bad game no doubt about it but of the three he had more pocket presence than any of the three that have been out there. I have no idea what Green will do as I do not think he knows what he will do but it makes sense to me to put Navarre back out there for the rest of the season. You cannot keep changing QB's every 2 weeks. Denny created this mess now he must deal with it. Croom sure does not look like a starting RB. Our big guy Ab-------- looks better to me. Where is that RB we signed a few weeks ago (Anderson?). How can any one team be so short at QB and RB and have so many receivers. Anyone that says draft best athlete needs to rethink that. When you have needs like we do what person in his right mind would draft an receiver even if he is the best athlete. Best athlete is for teams that are already very good. Not for teams like AZ who is in dire need at key positions.

 

[john h]

I never ever post previous comments and call out posters, I am not that type.

I am simply frustrated at everyone saying let Navarre finish out the season while continuing to spew out that Josh sucks.

Josh sucks as compared to what?

The other two QB's aren't exactly making him look foolish are they. Neither of them has a win so exactly what was the reasoning behind his benching?

We were told by DG Navarre gives us the best chance to win and I say that is a load of horse dung.

It's B.S. of the highest order and I am tired of just swallowing that.

Josh gives us the best chance to win if you want to audition QB's say that but don't insult everyones intelligence by saying what Navarre did was better than anything Josh was capable of.

We have no best chance to win. If there is a best chance it will be luck. I am looking straingt at Dennis Green for the prediciment we find ourself in. I did not expect to make the playoffs this year but I did expect to have a QB in waiting or training and a decent RB. DG is not putting us in a position to go anywhere this year or next year. We got a couple of decent draft picks which was offset by the people he fired. He fires a coach and replaces him with one who has never coached. I personally do not buy into the Denny Green plan what ever it is or even if there is a plan. He appears to be an Emperor and the Emperor has lost his clothes.