Avatar: The Way of Water (aka Avatar 2)

[Covert Rain]

Going to take the fam to see it in 3D today.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

I’m definitely going to be wrong. Third weekend looks like box office is holding insanely well, maybe down only 10%.

‘Avatar: The Way Of Water’ Scores Monday January Record With $21M+, 4-Day Rises To $88M, Looks To Best Blumhouse’s ‘M3GAN’ Opening – Tuesday AM Update

'Avatar: The Way Of Water' To Cross $440M At New Year's Weekend Box Office

deadline.com

This sucker might hit 2 billion after all. If it gets there, what Cameron will have accomplished is truly insane.

Cameron has a plethora of mega-fans who will go see his movies dozens of times on the big screen which doesn't hurt. Probably some of the same fans he recently flipped off for getting upset about his refusal to sign any autographs after an Avatar 2 screening.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Devilmaycare]

I’m definitely going to be wrong. Third weekend looks like box office is holding insanely well, maybe down only 10%.

‘Avatar: The Way Of Water’ Scores Monday January Record With $21M+, 4-Day Rises To $88M, Looks To Best Blumhouse’s ‘M3GAN’ Opening – Tuesday AM Update

'Avatar: The Way Of Water' To Cross $440M At New Year's Weekend Box Office

deadline.com

This sucker might hit 2 billion after all. If it gets there, what Cameron will have accomplished is truly insane.

Yeah, it's going to hit $2B I think. Last weekend was +6% over the previous weekend domestically and is already at $1.4B worldwide. It feels like it's picking up steam now and there's nothing on the horizon to challenge it. I think it's going to have legs like Top Gun did last year.

 

[Covert Rain]

Went to see this yesterday with the fam. Good movie. The action was top notch. The animation was simply the best I have ever seen. The motion capture was the best I have seen since Gollum in LOR. Simply fantastic. The movie was a visual tour de force. The new "life" designs to expand the world of Pandora were phenomenal.

Having said that the movie isn't without fault. Again, good movie but waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to long. They could have cut 40 minutes off this movie and it wouldn't have missed a beat IMO. There were equivalent scenes of characters from Walking Dead just walking through the forest pontificating. Just bloated the movie. My son put it another way, he said the movie basically had these water simulation scenes that were just to show off.

Story wasn't groundbreaking or entering any new territory. It's more of the same from the first movie with both the circle of life stuff and his regurgitated storyline of Corporations behaving badly, and exploitation of resources which he also used in T2, Aliens and the first Avatar. Corporations behaving badly seems to be one of his favorite themes. The best parts of the story were the expansion of Pandora and the family stuff.

The 3D was a tad underwhelming. If this was supposed to "refresh" the genre I don't think it did that at all. In fact, I think the 3D in the first movie had some more impressive depth scenes to it. The 3D was fun and definitely added to the movie, but this isn't going to bring 3D back to the explosion it experienced after the first Avatar.

Spoiler

I was completely wrong about who I guessed was going to die. But the death of their oldest son added some weight to an otherwise regurgitated story. The one thing we didn't like was the ending with Colonel. Felt so Saturday morning cartoon with the bad guy "surviving" yet again. We just rolled our eyes. Honestly, totally unnecessary to continue the story. Really made the movie feel more cliche and predictable with Avatar 3. Yes, we know. The Colonel is pissed and going to be coming for them...again.

Overall? Good movie and a visual masterpiece. I can't say enough about the visuals. If this doesn't earn an Oscar for FX something is wrong. I will be adding to my collection for sure when it hits disc. Not my favorite JC movie or even my favorite movie of the year which is still Maverick but it's still a must see if you love FX or the technical stuff. It's fun but if you are a story first driven person, don't care about FX/technical stuff? You might think it's just OK...again.

 

[gimpy]

My grand daughter and I just got back from seeing the movie. We both really liked it. As mentioned earlier, it is basically the same storyline as the first one.

Being so long just let me eat more/extra popcorn.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Visually stunning but I’m ready for Cameron to move on. Unfortunately, 2 Bills = Avatar until the end of the decade… and prob the rest of his career.

I think what disappointed me most was one of the hallmarks of Cameron sequels was MIA. Yea, he upped the FX considerably and established an incredible world underwater to be immersed in, but in sequels to Alien and Terminator, he didn’t just raise the bar visually, he raised it with characters as well, especially villains. The Queen in Aliens is exactly what Ripley calls her… A BITCH. Terrifying in every way. Add the overall multiplication of Aliens as an attacking force and that changed the dynamic of that sequel. And Robert Patrick’s Terminator somehow equaled, if not topped Schwarzenegger’s original. A seemingly impossible task that Cameron breezed past.

Those villains raised the game for the protagonists. Here… same villain, different body… and less of a son of a bitch. And the lone character trait from ANY of his goons was one of them blows bubble gum bubbles. Where are good versions of Hicks, Ramirez, Game Over Grunts of Aliens? Sarah Connor’s Shrink or even the orderly who simply licked her face to gross us out? Or Reiser’s weasel in Aliens? He created two solid villains in the first Avatar between Lang’s original character and Ribisi playing the Reiser role.

even in his non sequels, like Titanic he had good villains with Billy Zane’s loathesome Cal, Cal’s lackey and Rose’s Mom as a tertiary antagonist. True Lies easily had the weakest villain which is why I think it‘s a notch below his absolute classics in the stratosphere with the others, but between Paxton‘s used cars dealer/wannabe spy and Tia Carrera’s bad art dealer, it’s tertiary “villains” were GREAT. And between Arnold, Jamie Lee and Tom Arnold, it’s heroes more than overcompensate for the weak number 1 villian.

After 13 years, you can see the time and effort put into the film visually, but it appears that almost ALL came at the expense of the characters.

 

[Phrazbit]

Visually stunning but I’m ready for Cameron to move on. Unfortunately, 2 Bills = Avatar until the end of the decade… and prob the rest of his career.

I think what disappointed me most was one of the hallmarks of Cameron sequels was MIA. Yea, he upped the FX considerably and established an incredible world underwater to be immersed in, but in sequels to Alien and Terminator, he didn’t just raise the bar visually, he raised it with characters as well, especially villains. The Queen in Aliens is exactly what Ripley calls her… A BITCH. Terrifying in every way. Add the overall multiplication of Aliens as an attacking force and that changed the dynamic of that sequel. And Robert Patrick’s Terminator somehow equaled, if not topped Schwarzenegger’s original. A seemingly impossible task that Cameron breezed past.

Those villains raised the game for the protagonists. Here… same villain, different body… and less of a son of a bitch. And the lone character trait from ANY of his goons was one of them blows bubble gum bubbles. Where are good versions of Hicks, Ramirez, Game Over Grunts of Aliens? Sarah Connor’s Shrink or even the orderly who simply licked her face to gross us out? Or Reiser’s weasel in Aliens? He created two solid villains in the first Avatar between Lang’s original character and Ribisi playing the Reiser role.

even in his non sequels, like Titanic he had good villains with Billy Zane’s loathesome Cal, Cal’s lackey and Rose’s Mom as a tertiary antagonist. True Lies easily had the weakest villain which is why I think it‘s a notch below his absolute classics in the stratosphere with the others, but between Paxton‘s used cars dealer/wannabe spy and Tia Carrera’s bad art dealer, it’s tertiary “villains” were GREAT. And between Arnold, Jamie Lee and Tom Arnold, it’s heroes more than overcompensate for the weak number 1 villian.

After 13 years, you can see the time and effort put into the film visually, but it appears that almost ALL came at the expense of the characters.

To be fair... only in the sense that the bar in terms of characters should have been low, the characters in the original Avatar had the depth of a drinking fountain.

If not for the visuals, that movie is a poorly written, "Dances With Wolves In Space!"

James Cameron has hit a grand slam with basically every movie he has made, but when it comes to story telling, IMO, Avatar was one of his worst.








(And True Lies is one of the most underrated films ever)

 

[Zalixar]

Visually stunning but I’m ready for Cameron to move on. Unfortunately, 2 Bills = Avatar until the end of the decade… and prob the rest of his career.

I think what disappointed me most was one of the hallmarks of Cameron sequels was MIA. Yea, he upped the FX considerably and established an incredible world underwater to be immersed in, but in sequels to Alien and Terminator, he didn’t just raise the bar visually, he raised it with characters as well, especially villains. The Queen in Aliens is exactly what Ripley calls her… A BITCH. Terrifying in every way. Add the overall multiplication of Aliens as an attacking force and that changed the dynamic of that sequel. And Robert Patrick’s Terminator somehow equaled, if not topped Schwarzenegger’s original. A seemingly impossible task that Cameron breezed past.

Those villains raised the game for the protagonists. Here… same villain, different body… and less of a son of a bitch. And the lone character trait from ANY of his goons was one of them blows bubble gum bubbles. Where are good versions of Hicks, Ramirez, Game Over Grunts of Aliens? Sarah Connor’s Shrink or even the orderly who simply licked her face to gross us out? Or Reiser’s weasel in Aliens? He created two solid villains in the first Avatar between Lang’s original character and Ribisi playing the Reiser role.

even in his non sequels, like Titanic he had good villains with Billy Zane’s loathesome Cal, Cal’s lackey and Rose’s Mom as a tertiary antagonist. True Lies easily had the weakest villain which is why I think it‘s a notch below his absolute classics in the stratosphere with the others, but between Paxton‘s used cars dealer/wannabe spy and Tia Carrera’s bad art dealer, it’s tertiary “villains” were GREAT. And between Arnold, Jamie Lee and Tom Arnold, it’s heroes more than overcompensate for the weak number 1 villian.

After 13 years, you can see the time and effort put into the film visually, but it appears that almost ALL came at the expense of the characters.

Avatar was such a spectacle, it's going to be tough to impossible to top it each time. He almost can't in a way. Special FX was even improved a bit, but still on par with the first one. SFX constantly evolving throughout his career and the movie industry, so the advantage is that he could put stuff out there that would wow people because it's all relatively new to the audience as well. As we rewatch the stuff it holds up, but we also have the nostalgia that comes with it. Nowadays we've seen amazing CGI for years, so while Avatae can be considered groundbreaking, it's almost not that special anymore.

Since he didn't do Alien, the sequel had much more to open up story building wise. It's also a completely different genre, Alien - Aliens. The first Alien, like Terminator was very a straightforward and simple story. T2 is pretty much the same thing, but almost a decade later he was able to do it in a new and mind blowing way.

Unfortunately the franchise peaked there and the same chasing plot can only be done so many times before it's stale. Aliens also peaked for this reason as well (although they did try to so something a little different for the 3rd one). Interesting backstory with Aliens switching Colonel Hicks partway into filming and replacing with Michael Biehn.

True Lies is probably one of my favorites, but definitely a weak villain. Cal in Titanic was just the placeholder for true antagonist- The iceberg, in which we were waiting for the entire movie.

 

[Cheesebeef]

To be fair... only in the sense that the bar in terms of characters should have been low, the characters in the original Avatar had the depth of a drinking fountain.

If not for the visuals, that movie is a poorly written, "Dances With Wolves In Space!"

James Cameron has hit a grand slam with basically every movie he has made, but when it comes to story telling, IMO, Avatar was one of his worst.








(And True Lies is one of the most underrated films ever)

I thought Neitiery was a great character in Avatar and carried the movie. Was very surprised to see th extent to which he sidelined her here.

 

[Covert Rain]

To be fair... only in the sense that the bar in terms of characters should have been low, the characters in the original Avatar had the depth of a drinking fountain.

If not for the visuals, that movie is a poorly written, "Dances With Wolves In Space!"

James Cameron has hit a grand slam with basically every movie he has made, but when it comes to story telling, IMO, Avatar was one of his worst.








(And True Lies is one of the most underrated films ever)

The bar was pretty low for deep character development and depth of story for this movie. Not sure why anybody would expect that out of these films. He uses the Circle of Life and his go to "Corporations behaving badly" again and again in his career. So, I went in expecting exactly the same and it's what we got. To me? This plays more like James Cameron using the film medium to see how far he can push technology. It's similar to my opinion with his documentary on Titanic. Sure, it was about the Titanic but he pushed the envelope with undersee hardware.

I am not sure his focus is being a filmmaker as much as an innovator now in the field. I would like to see him move on from Avatar and get back to making films again. This is a stunning visual masterpiece but beyond that it's pretty shallow.

 

[MadCardDisease]

So I just wattched it and these are my thoughts.

On a scale of 1 to 10 the story is barely a 1. I don't know how you can make a movie that long have so many odd plot holes. I could do paragraphs on stuff that makes zero sense.

One a scaore of 1 to 10 the visuals are a 15. It's simply a gorgeous movie with the best motion capture I have ever seen.

Beyond that, 85% of the movie is about the kids and those kids are so annoying they make you appreciate your own kids.

I am happy to have paid for it in the theater. I have no idea if I will ever watch it again.

That is pretty much how I felt after watching it. The story was so disappointing that I couldn't wait for the movie to end. I mean the story was completely ridiculous at times. I can get over small plot holes and such but my goodness this beyond ridiculous. They spent over a decade on this movie and that was the best story they could come up with.

I'm not big on the whole motion capture thing so I could care less about that. To me it all looks like CGI. Visually there were some amazing scenes but I had already seen and been wowed by most of it in the first movie. For a movie to be amazing it needs more than just great visuals.

I totally agree on the Na'vi kids. Not only where they annoying but I found them to be very cartoonish looking which made them even more annoying. This is where I got the vibe of a young Anakin from The Phantom Menace. At one point I was hoping that the whale thingies would just eat all of the Na'vi kids.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Visually stunning but I’m ready for Cameron to move on. Unfortunately, 2 Bills = Avatar until the end of the decade… and prob the rest of his career.

I think what disappointed me most was one of the hallmarks of Cameron sequels was MIA. Yea, he upped the FX considerably and established an incredible world underwater to be immersed in, but in sequels to Alien and Terminator, he didn’t just raise the bar visually, he raised it with characters as well, especially villains. The Queen in Aliens is exactly what Ripley calls her… A BITCH. Terrifying in every way. Add the overall multiplication of Aliens as an attacking force and that changed the dynamic of that sequel. And Robert Patrick’s Terminator somehow equaled, if not topped Schwarzenegger’s original. A seemingly impossible task that Cameron breezed past.

Those villains raised the game for the protagonists. Here… same villain, different body… and less of a son of a bitch. And the lone character trait from ANY of his goons was one of them blows bubble gum bubbles. Where are good versions of Hicks, Ramirez, Game Over Grunts of Aliens? Sarah Connor’s Shrink or even the orderly who simply licked her face to gross us out? Or Reiser’s weasel in Aliens? He created two solid villains in the first Avatar between Lang’s original character and Ribisi playing the Reiser role.

even in his non sequels, like Titanic he had good villains with Billy Zane’s loathesome Cal, Cal’s lackey and Rose’s Mom as a tertiary antagonist. True Lies easily had the weakest villain which is why I think it‘s a notch below his absolute classics in the stratosphere with the others, but between Paxton‘s used cars dealer/wannabe spy and Tia Carrera’s bad art dealer, it’s tertiary “villains” were GREAT. And between Arnold, Jamie Lee and Tom Arnold, it’s heroes more than overcompensate for the weak number 1 villian.

After 13 years, you can see the time and effort put into the film visually, but it appears that almost ALL came at the expense of the characters.

Yep. I think you nailed it. The villains in this sequel were pretty much jokes. Very disappointing.

But it's the heroes also. He took Sully who was this awesome hero with a great story in the first movie and basically neutered his character in this film. I mean I literally wanted to punch Sully in this film at times. For me I don't even know if there was a hero to cheer for in this movie. Maybe the outcast whale thingy?

 

[carrrnuttt]

I thought Neitiery was a great character in Avatar and carried the movie. Was very surprised to see th extent to which he sidelined her here.

I think a large part of Neytiri being sidelined is because she is being held off for a bigger role in the planned sequels. I think that also applies to Col. Quaritch being less than the huge bad we expected him to be. You know, so his son will find him somewhat saveable...for the sequel.

I don't love it, but I my guess is Quaritch is being set up for some kind of redemption, with the corporation itself becoming the ultimate bad.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think a large part of Neytiri being sidelined is because she is being held off for a bigger role in the planned sequels. I think that also applies to Col. Quaritch being less than the huge bad we expected him to be. You know, so his son will find him somewhat saveable...for the sequel.

I don't love it, but I my guess is Quaritch is being set up for some kind of redemption, with the corporation itself becoming the ultimate bad.

yeah, I see a Quaritch redemption arc coming. But they desperately need a new villain. The bad guy who consistently loses at the end of each movie takes away any and all jeopardy. That's what made the Original Star Wars trilogy so compelling. Darth defeats kills Obi-won, but Luke blows up the Death Star... you get what appears to at least be a "victory" in the ultimate defeat there. Then in Empire by the end, it just looks like it's Darth's universe and we're all just living in it. Then the ultimate redemption and win by Luke, turning his father back to the light.

Here it's... Quaritch loses in the 1st Avatar. Then loses in the 2nd Avatar. Why would anyone be scared of him in the 3rd? It's kinda the same problem they had with the Star Wars sequels Kylo Ren became more of a punchline every time he failed against Rey, who'd never been in a lightsaber duel at all and then against the Tupac'd Luke hologram.

 

[Chaplin]

yeah, I see a Quaritch redemption arc coming. But they desperately need a new villain. The bad guy who consistently loses at the end of each movie takes away any and all jeopardy. That's what made the Original Star Wars trilogy so compelling. Darth defeats kills Obi-won, but Luke blows up the Death Star... you get what appears to at least be a "victory" in the ultimate defeat there. Then in Empire by the end, it just looks like it's Darth's universe and we're all just living in it. Then the ultimate redemption and win by Luke, turning his father back to the light.

Here it's... Quaritch loses in the 1st Avatar. Then loses in the 2nd Avatar. Why would anyone be scared of him in the 3rd? It's kinda the same problem they had with the Star Wars sequels Kylo Ren became more of a punchline every time he failed against Rey, who'd never been in a lightsaber duel at all and then against the Tupac'd Luke hologram.

They need to bring in N'avi villains in part 3.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They need to bring in N'avi villains in part 3.

I also hope there's a little course correction on the old White Savior trope that was really weak in the first movie and pretty much continued with another character in this one.

Like... let Netiri freaking COOK for pete's sake! And I don't mean in the kitchen!

 

[Covert Rain]

They need to bring in N'avi villains in part 3.

Interesting idea but goes against the one Pandora theme they have going on. I just don't see JC breaking from his norm. I was guessing we could see a "fire tribe" that starts a civil war, but something tells me it would be predictable. Like having to come together to fight the big bad corporation by the end.

 

[Zalixar]

They need to bring in N'avi villains in part 3.

They will. It's going to be the ash tribe - grey colored. And they will worship Volcanoes/fire.

 

[Covert Rain]

They will. It's going to be the ash tribe - grey colored. And they will worship Volcanoes/fire.

Found this.

Upcoming Avatar 3 to Include a Na'vi Fire Nation Called the 'Ash People'

The new region will set the stage for a new villain in Avatar 3.

movieweb.com

 

[MadCardDisease]

Found this.

Upcoming Avatar 3 to Include a Na'vi Fire Nation Called the 'Ash People'

The new region will set the stage for a new villain in Avatar 3.

movieweb.com

So basically this is becoming "The Walking Dead" where we are introduced the a new "Clan" each movie but it is essentially the same story over and over again. I can't wait to hear about the amazing Lava CGI.

My guess is that Cameron will probably base this sequel off the Comanches. The Comanches were feared by everyone including other tribes. Cameron will use Quanah Parker the last famous Comanche chief as inspiration. For those that don't know Parker was half white, his mom Cynthia Ann Parker was captured by the Comanches as a child at the age of nine. So basically that feral white kid "Spider", along with his pseudo-father avatar Quaritch, will somehow become part of this fire tribe and lead them against the Na'vi.

At least I might finally get to see what a 6 legged Buffalo looks like! I wonder what Kevin Costner looks like all blue???

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Zalixar]

So basically this is becoming "The Walking Dead" where we are introduced the a new "Clan" each movie but it is essentially the same story over and over again. I can't wait to hear about the amazing Lava CGI.

My guess is that Cameron will probably base this sequel off the Comanches. The Comanches were feared by everyone including other tribes. Cameron will use Quanah Parker the last famous Comanche chief as inspiration. For those that don't know Parker was half white, his mom Cynthia Ann Parker was captured by the Comanches as a child at the age of nine. So basically that feral white kid "Spider", along with his pseudo-father avatar Quaritch, will somehow become part of this fire tribe and lead them against the Na'vi.

At least I might finally get to see what a 6 legged Buffalo looks like! I wonder what Kevin Costner looks like all blue???

You must be registered for see images attach

It's funny when people (in general) criticize Avatar for reuse of stories when 90%+ of all movies, shows, books in the past decades are literally the same rehashed stories of yore as well. Almost literally nothing is "new." It's just the same stories retold in different ways.

Also, Avatar was written (not sure how in depth or scope by sequels) in the mid 90's.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm gonna do a little taste test with this tomorrow night and watch Avatar 2 from the comforts of my own couch... see if it holds any redeeming value outside the theater experience.

i know you will all be waiting with baited breath for my response.

 

[carrrnuttt]

i know you will all be waiting with baited breath for my response.

Bated - BIM

 

[Devilmaycare]

I'm gonna do a little taste test with this tomorrow night and watch Avatar 2 from the comforts of my own couch... see if it holds any redeeming value outside the theater experience.

i know you will all be waiting with baited breath for my response.

I swear that I thought I clicked on the thread for The Menu only to find this as the first message I see.