BA = Toxic

RugbyMuffin

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And both believed their system is better than adjusting or admitting fault. Arians will be sitting next to Whiz...saying wtf?

That is a good point.

But, I am sure Whiz is sharing that bench with A LOT of coaches that are sitting there saying "WTF". I heard it was Jeff Fischer's turn to pick up the coffee this time.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Nice guys finish last Mitch, and that is the truth.

And to be fair, you are saying that you wouldn't want Vince Lombardi to coach your team. That is a coach that called our players in the media, and any where else he deemed fit.

Again, I understand and even respect the thinking, but I simply do not agree.
Bringing up Lombardi is a stretch. He coached in a different era when his methods were more accepted at youth levels. His players grew up in that environment rather than the everyone wins a trophy environment.

I don't agree with Mitch's sentiment that BA is too hard on players. They are professionals being paid millions. They need to be able to handle tough love. But you can't compare coaching tactics of different generations. It's not apples to apples.
 

Reddog

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“Mike is like my brother,” Fitzgerald said. “I’ve known Mike since he was 13 years old. We come from the same place (Minneapolis). I love him dearly and like any other family member I never turn my back on him no matter what. I’m going to support him. I saw him yesterday. I’m going to see him again today. It’s important during these times to support people when they’re going through some stuff.”

I am for all the tough love and I understand their Floyd decision but I have to wonder how the locker room views BA in light of the Floyd cut, Bethal public butchering and unyielding public defense of Amos Jones. Fits is smart. He says he doesn't want to say how he really feels but then says it veiled in innuendo. I think he is saying I value family and don't turn my back on them & the Cards/BA are not demonstrating my sense of family value.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I am for all the tough love and I understand their Floyd decision but I have to wonder how the locker room views BA in light of the Floyd cut, Bethal public butchering and unyielding public defense of Amos Jones. Fits is smart. He says he doesn't want to say how he really feels but then says it veiled in innuendo. I think he is saying I value family and don't turn my back on them & the Cards/BA are not demonstrating my sense of family value.

Yeah it's. It the tough love that bothers me, it's the incredibly transparent double standard. And then overtly stating and restating the double standard. It's like flaunting the double standard in the players' faces. I don't think that flies for long with today's athletes.

I could be, and fervently hope that i am, wrong and BA does a 180 in the offseason and cans Amos. But past performance sometimes IS a good indicator of future performance. And BA hasn't fired Amos before, so I'm fully expecting to be disappointed.
 

Russ Smith

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My take is that Arians is a very good coach but the problem with his style of handling people is it only works if they believe you're being honest. I don't even think it's consistent it's honesty. If you're brutally honest people seem to be able to take it.

The problem is while what he said about Bethel is totally true, he also said he wasn't making any coaching changes because the coaches aren't the problem the players are, and that's not being honest. the players aren't stupid, they know that some of the issues are them and some of the issues are coaching, particularly the ST.

Winning covers lots but when you start losing, players start paying more attention to what's being said.

Just like the Rams defensive players are wondering when are they going to fix the offense, i guarantee you there are Cards players wondering when are we going to fix the ST. And when they hear that Amos Jones is being given a free pass by Arians, I bet that doesn't sit well.

I don't want Arians replaced but there needs to be others, like Keim, with input on everything including who the coaches are.
 

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Get it right. It was 58-0.


Whiz's successes were obviously because of Warner. If his system was any good then Leinart should have transitioned into the starter and we should have had continued success but after 2009 we fell like the Chixulub asteroid.

That's the whole point. His system wasnt good. Remember he was going to start lienart over Warner. Thank God lienart made the decision impossible to start him in exhibition
 

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LOL...If you remember correctly, about 5 other losses that year also cost the Cards a playoff spot...
That one more specifically because they were terrible(still are). The only other losses that might have hurt was @ Philly(remember the phantom defensive holding on HB that cost us an interception then the phantom DH call on Shaughnessy that should have stopped a late Eagles drive). And the loss to SF in the final week. We should have conceivably won 12 games that year.
 

Chris_Sanders

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30 GMs called Fitz and still didn't put in a waiver claim on Michael Floyd. Let's dial back the hyperbole
 

AsUpRoDiGy

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Best coach in Cardinals history...has one bad year...and all of a sudden he's terrible? At the end of the day...the players need to make plays...and they haven't. Does Arians deserve some blame? Sure. But to all of a sudden say he's a bad coach because players aren't making routine plays...well that's just emotion speaking and definitely an over-reaction. Losing sucks, but you learn more from a loss than you do from a win. The Cards will come out with a chip on their shoulder next year, and hopefully step up to the plate...which they neglected to do this year. If our record is the same this time next year...then you may have a point, but as of right now...complete over-reaction.
 

MadCardDisease

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Our roster is loaded except a few glaring spots. Cb2. Healthy OL. Honey Badger and John Brown. But solid QB. Great RB. Great WR. Solid Wrs. Good def line. Great CB1. Our downfall is that ...and this is why I want Arians either gone or on a short leash.....how smart can you be if you constantly think Butler is the answer. That is really what irks me more than anything. It's like having a Porsche and then putting wood panels on the side. I mean the ignorance alone for keeping Amos and not getting a replacement for Butler is what is crazy. I mean Butler constantly puts us in bad situations....and there are thousands ues thousands of dudes who can punt further thsn 38 yards. We have an 8th grader in middle school who avg 37.5. We have had backup punters out punt us. And yet ask Arians about Butler and he will look at you like you stole something. Arians may have Alzheimer's....it makes no sense ...and he loses all credibility with it


IMO "Our roster was Loaded" was the most over hyped thing heading into this season. Also people kept saying that this was essentially the same team as last year. No it wasn't the same team as last year.

The OL had 3 new Starters. Shipley isn't good at center and DJH was a huge unproven question mark. Mathis was an aging vet who was totally new to this team. Then injuries blew up any continuity in the OL very early in the season. Our Starting OL this weekend will be a bunch of players off the street. NOT good!

The Cards still don't have a good all around TE. We all knew this was a weakness heading into the season.

WR looked like a strength on paper. However John Brown has not been the same since being diagnosed with the sickle cell trait late in the preseason. Losing Jaron Brown was the biggest loss of the season especially since Michael Floyd decided to have the worst contract year in the history of the NFL. At his age, Fitz can't do it all anymore.

Special teams was a disaster going into this season. Rookie long snapper. Terrible punter brought back. Justin Bethel not showing up after receiving a big contract. Not a very good ST coach. Flakey kicker. I think Keim and BA share the blame on this one. It's like they didn't even consider ST as an important unit.

Our defensive backfield was a mess going into the season. Aside from PP every other position was a question mark. Relying on a rookie CB who hadn't played the position for more than a year was a huge head scratcher. Signing Justin Bethel to starting CB money when you could have had Powers and Rashad Johnson for less again is a head scratcher. I put this squarely on Keim. The Honeybadger was coming back from a major knee injury. There is no way we should have expected him to be close to his old form this year. Last time it took him an entire season before he was back to playing like the HB.

I think we were all blinded by the 2015 season and we swept several glaring holes under the rug heading into this season. We kept telling ourselves that it was essentially the same team when there were several obvious holes that should have been very concerning.
 

MadCardDisease

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I'm a huge BA fan. I lobbied hard to bring him in when the Cardinals were looking for a new coach. I still believe his is the perfect coach for this team.

However I also don't agree with everything he does. I don't like the fact that he allows Amos Jones to hang around. I also think at times he makes very questionable decisions during the game. This year he got out coached in a few games and it cost the team a win or two.

Does that mean I want him gone. Hell no. I have faith that Keim and BA will learn from their mistakes this year and get this thing back on track!
 

RugbyMuffin

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And remains hired and winning superbowls.

No doubt.

Just saying he cannot be that good at cheating if he gets caught. And yes, it is partly tongue and cheek coming from an old rugby instigator who knows its only a foul if the whistle blows.
 

RugbyMuffin

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IMO "Our roster was Loaded" was the most over hyped thing heading into this season. Also people kept saying that this was essentially the same team as last year. No it wasn't the same team as last year.

The OL had 3 new Starters. Shipley isn't good at center and DJH was a huge unproven question mark. Mathis was an aging vet who was totally new to this team. Then injuries blew up any continuity in the OL very early in the season. Our Starting OL this weekend will be a bunch of players off the street. NOT good!

The Cards still don't have a good all around TE. We all knew this was a weakness heading into the season.

WR looked like a strength on paper. However John Brown has not been the same since being diagnosed with the sickle cell trait late in the preseason. Losing Jaron Brown was the biggest loss of the season especially since Michael Floyd decided to have the worst contract year in the history of the NFL. At his age, Fitz can't do it all anymore.

Special teams was a disaster going into this season. Rookie long snapper. Terrible punter brought back. Justin Bethel not showing up after receiving a big contract. Not a very good ST coach. Flakey kicker. I think Keim and BA share the blame on this one. It's like they didn't even consider ST as an important unit.

Our defensive backfield was a mess going into the season. Aside from PP every other position was a question mark. Relying on a rookie CB who hadn't played the position for more than a year was a huge head scratcher. Signing Justin Bethel to starting CB money when you could have had Powers and Rashad Johnson for less again is a head scratcher. I put this squarely on Keim. The Honeybadger was coming back from a major knee injury. There is no way we should have expected him to be close to his old form this year. Last time it took him an entire season before he was back to playing like the HB.

I think we were all blinded by the 2015 season and we swept several glaring holes under the rug heading into this season. We kept telling ourselves that it was essentially the same team when there were several obvious holes that should have been very concerning.

You forget the #1 thing missing from 2015 to 2016.

That is a potential defensive player of the year at the nickel back position. Regardless if the Cardinals have the guy in name this year, he is no where near the same player.

But, 100% agree, the biggest B.S. line going around about this team is "they have everyone from last season".

No they don't, and it seems every replacement has failed miserably accept for Chandler Jones.

Its a different team.
 

iLLmatiC

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You forget the #1 thing missing from 2015 to 2016.

That is a potential defensive player of the year at the nickel back position. Regardless if the Cardinals have the guy in name this year, he is no where near the same player.

But, 100% agree, the biggest B.S. line going around about this team is "they have everyone from last season".

No they don't, and it seems every replacement has failed miserably accept for Chandler Jones.

Its a different team.

In addition to some of the players returning regressed mightily from last year.
 

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We still have a lot of talent. guys we still have a + point differential. We are ranked in top 10 FPI and they use a lot of stats. We are ranked in top 10 off yards and top 10 def yards. We have missed 3 kicks that would have won games. We have made numerous bone headed plays on ST cost us probably 2 more. The thing is...the players are basically the same players that won 13 games. The problem is we have the wrong guys punting and snapping. If we had a better snapper. And better punter. And Arians dialed down his offense more logically. We would be probably 10-3
 

wa52lz

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I think a lot of people are over looking how hard it is to win 10+ games more then 3yrs in a row. Since 2000 only 7 teams have done that, CIN (4ys 10+), GB x2 (4yrs 10+ both times), IND (9ys 10+), NE (14yrs 10+), PHI (5yrs), DEN (4ys) and SEA (this will be year 5 if they win one more). Four of those teams had Top Ten all time QBs. None started their streaks in the first year of a HC's tenure.
 
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Mitch

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I can make an analogy to my profession. Im a cook/chef. I lead a team of cooks into battle nightly. Im supportive, dont yell and scream, never belittle. Because of that, sometimes, I come across as weak. Im a cooks chef (like a players coach). Dont cross me, but even still, I dont present as a hard ass. I have worked for, respected, and hated, many chefs who yell, scream, belittle, and decry as a management style. However, they are effective leaders, too. Ive learned SO MUCH from these types of people. Its part of the business. Id love to see the paradigm switch, and I believe it slowly is (the stereotype of the ranting raving chef), but for as much as I hated being treated the way I was being treated early in my career, it not only made me better, but it also informed me on how Id like to someday manage. I chose to go the opposite route. Im supremely happy with the decision, but believe me, there are times when I wish I could be like BA and let it rip. Because it works.

The whole point is, you dont like his management style. I get that. And Im wholly supportive of that it. What I take issue with is your constant conjecture. Offer these awesome pieces you write as opinions. "I cant help but wonder if perhaps his methodologies with the rooks might be doing more harm than good..." is far easier to digest than "BA's rookies are nervous wrecks ." If you werent so informed about football or didnt write so well, Id probably just block you. But I LOVE reading your stuff. I get frustrated with your posts when your passion takes over, and generally then only when its negative, because I can ALWAYS get behind the rah rah stuff!

Anyhow, keep the content coming! Im tuly appreciative to be able to read your thoughts.

I really like your head cook analogy---I worked my way through college waiting tables and worked for nice guy chefs and chefs who have stood by the broiler too long. The French chef at a 5 star restaurant in NY where I worked was a constant screamer---and no one liked him. It didn't make us better waiters or his kitchen staff better preparers. It just made everyone work on edge. But, it was all behind the scenes---the patrons loved the food and the ambience, so that's why the restaurant was so successful. But again, he could have been respectful and it wouldn't have spoiled the zuppa de pesche, sp to speak.

You had a great attitude about learning from the screamers---but not all people do. I teach high schoolers and today there are far fewer students I can motivate through tough love---most of the students react well to constructive criticism, mingled with incentives. It's just a different world of parenting these days. Back when I was coaching, I had a varsity basketball team one year that was very talented, but a bunch of slackers in practice. I was in their faces every day and rode them like no other team I ever coached. I even managed to get the prima donna ball hogs to play team ball---and the team won 23 straight games, beat the #24 ranked team in USA Today twice, and then in the New England Championship game, one of the ball hogs decided he was going to put on a show for a college scout and started chucking up shots, and the team lost by 3, to finish 23-1.

After the season ended---I overheard a player on my team tell a friend of his that it was great winning 23 straight games and winning the league---but, he said, too bad the coach was an a#$hole.

That really stuck with me and I had a big decision to make---was it worth my players not liking me? Was it worth some players losing the joy of the game?

So the next year, I decided to make sure that the experience was exciting and fun for all the players. I made that my goal. It wasn't as talented a team as the year before, we didn't win the league, but we did qualify at the #7 seed in the New England Championships. And, honestly, I loved watching the passion that those kids played with---and i really loved that they showed a new appreciation for me.

What I am worried about for BA's sake is that he is overlooking how important respect is in dealing with those around him. If he ever learned to pay the refs and all of his players with the same respect he affords to his assistant coaches, then I believe he not only will he and the players enjoy the experience more, they will have a better chance to win. Morale, respect and a passion for the game are everything.

Now---that doesn't mean there shouldn't be tough love when it is needed---but do it man to man, face to face, respectfully and not through the media.

I appreciate your critique of my post. My remark about the rookies "playing like nervous wrecks" was based on what my eyes have told me. Brandon Williams looks exceptionally nervous to me---of course he was thrown in there way too soon. And Robert Nkemdiche looks like a ball of nerves. All of the other rookies haven't garnered any playing time---but it does not speak particularly well that Boehm hasn't yet overtaken a so-so Shipley at center, nor that the coaches are starting Tyler Boggs (cut, signed to PS and recently promoted to the 53 man roster) ahead of Cole Toner.

Worst of all, is how BA&SK gave away the 5th round pick, Marqui Christian, which looks even worse now that Jefferson and Swearinger are UFAs and Tyvon Branch has been injured and not very good when he has played---and seeing Honey Badger did not take to playing FS well---and even this past week a lack of depth forced them to play Golden Brittan at FS in the game, having never taken a snap there.

It's a tough year to watch no rookies make any kind of a splash on the Cardinals while the Cowboys, for example, are winning with two MVP candidate rookies.

BA recently said that he no longer expects any rookies to play in their first year. Again---wtf. Sorry if this offends BA proponents, but for an NFL head coach to say this during the salary cap era is just plain obtuse.
 
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Mitch

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Bringing up Lombardi is a stretch. He coached in a different era when his methods were more accepted at youth levels. His players grew up in that environment rather than the everyone wins a trophy environment.

I don't agree with Mitch's sentiment that BA is too hard on players. They are professionals being paid millions. They need to be able to handle tough love. But you can't compare coaching tactics of different generations. It's not apples to apples.

I agree with you about Lombardi. Times definitely have changed.

My point isn't that BA should not give players tough love---that's a coach's job. My point is---don't disrespect the players through the media.
 

82CardsGrad

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I agree with you about Lombardi. Times definitely have changed.

My point isn't that BA should not give players tough love---that's a coach's job. My point is---don't disrespect the players through the media.

Mitch, if you kept your multitude of points and the BA is Toxic theme to just this post, I'd be on board with you... No coach should disrespect a player thru the media. Even when a player is clearly in the wrong and might otherwise seem worthy of being disrespected, it's never a good look for a leader to do so via 3rd parties...ever!
 
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