Best Point Guards of All Time

[Carolinacacti]

Paul Westphal had a good run for the Suns. Not a top 20 PG but I loved him.

 

[Superbone]

Incredibly unfair indictment of jerry.

He was a very good gm. Took a young team from a backwater town with no historical fan base and not a lot of money and consistently had them a good team.

And what he did with dbacks as based on what was possible in baseball verses basketball. He spent like a madman and put the team in great future debt to win the World Series. The same actions were not available in the NBA or I'm certain he would have done the same.

Yep. Had he not sold the team, I'm beyond convinced that we would have won at least one championship. Joe Johnson would have still been a Sun over a $5 million discrepancy.

 

[leclerc]

I can understand durability is an issue with KJ's "legacy" but his defence was certainly better than the matadors Nash, Steph etc, so why the heck is fracking Payton ranked so much higher? Blue smoke coming out of Seattle... I'm not even talking about Rondo and Billups. Also Kyrie has no business being higher than KJ on that list.

 

[sr7706]

Magic 1 , Nash 2

 

[JCSunsfan]

I can understand durability is an issue with KJ's "legacy" but his defence was certainly better than the matadors Nash, Steph etc, so why the heck is fracking Payton ranked so much higher? Blue smoke coming out of Seattle... I'm not even talking about Rondo and Billups. Also Kyrie has no business being higher than KJ on that list.

KJ COULD and DID play D at times. He was quite capable of it. But Payton's defense was on another level.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Incredibly unfair indictment of jerry.

He was a very good gm. Took a young team from a backwater town with no historical fan base and not a lot of money and consistently had them a good team.

And what he did with dbacks as based on what was possible in baseball verses basketball. He spent like a madman and put the team in great future debt to win the World Series. The same actions were not available in the NBA or I'm certain he would have done the same.

Been through this with BC over the years. Not going there again. Just wanted to say that I agree with you Ouchie.

 

[Chaplin]

KJ COULD and DID play D at times. He was quite capable of it. But Payton's defense was on another level.

People forget who the two players that consistently guarded Jordan in the Finals. Dan Majerle and Kevin Johnson.

 

[Cheesebeef]

People forget who the two players that consistently guarded Jordan in the Finals. Dan Majerle and Kevin Johnson.

I don't forget it... but I also remember Jordan averaging a Finals record 41 ppg against us on 51% shooting. You read that right 41 POINTS PER GAME. Both those guys tried to D Jordan up, but they failed miserably... like most back in the day.

that said, KJ never really did anything to make himself stand out defensively.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If Jerry didn't know that Rick Robey for DJ was not a good trade, it's a reflection on his skills as a GM. It is still the worst trade in Suns history. But then, Jerry was never in the upper echelon of GM's in the NBA. Promoter, yes. Among the top traders, not so. Owner, OK for a small market team.

If Jerry was such a podunk moron, promoter why in the world would USA Basketball turn over their ENTIRE OPERATION to him after getting embarrassed twice in a row? And what happened... Jerry's stature and know how got ALL the best NBA players to commit back to rapping the country. But yeah, some middle of the road GM from a small podunk town was responsbile for that. Idiotic.

He never did for the Suns what he learned to do for the D-backs. Reach the promised land.

there's a salary cap in basketball... there wasn't in baseball. and even then, Jerry tried to figure out every way around the salary cap with the back to back 1 year 1 million dollar wink-wink deals for AC Green and Danny Manning, both of whom were the BEST FA in their respective market. A move the NBA eventually outlawed because Jerry was trying to do EXACTLY what he did for the D-Backs, give them as much talent as he possibly could with what was available to him. And if Manning doesn't get hurt, he would have accomplished that. That team was on pace for 65 wins... WITH KJ missing 20 games at the beginning of the year.

 

[Chaplin]

that said, KJ never really did anything to make himself stand out defensively.

He's not better than Payton defensively but I completely disagree with this statement.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's not better than Payton defensively but I completely disagree with this statement.

He's not even in the same league defensively as Payton (while KJ was a lot better on Offense, IMO) and would rather have KJ than Payton... with it being close.

But Based on what exactly makes you completely disagree with my statement that he never did anything to make him standout defensively?

He never sniffed an all-defensive team. Do you remember any opposing PG who he'd give fits to as a defender, because I don't. And He wasn't exactly a ball hawk with steals. So... what was it that made him stand out on defense, in your opinion?

 

[Raze]

Yep. Had he not sold the team, I'm beyond convinced that we would have won at least one championship. Joe Johnson would have still been a Sun over a $5 million discrepancy.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with this. Had Jerry not sold the team they still would have ran the run and gun. It was obvious to everyone that actually cared to notice that Stern made it nigh impossible for a team like that to win a championship. Sacramento, Dallas, and Phoenix were outright robbed of opportunities as games were continually called one way in the regular season, and then absolutely opposite come postseason. I've never seen anything like it in sports. It wasn't until Donaghee pulled a Canseco and peeled back the curtain on Stern that you started to see teams allowed to play a running style in the playoffs. 2011 it finally culminated in Dallas getting their championship (they should've had two). Sadly, Webber and Nash had aged out before change occurred. It was truly robbery. I don't see Colangelo changing that.

 

[leclerc]

KJ was a winner. He got people involved and scored when he had to. Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall the Suns beating the Sonics in every single playoff series I can remember. Even when they had Schrempf and big smooth.

 

[Cheesebeef]

KJ was a winner. He got people involved and scored when he had to. Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall the Suns beating the Sonics in every single playoff series I can remember. Even when they had Schrempf and big smooth.

I think they only played once in the playoffs.

Nope... was wrong. They played twice. First in 1993, when we beat them in 7 in the WCF. And he lost to them in 5 in 1996 in the first round when we had the all small ball team and he played off guard next to Kidd, going nuts that season scoring like 22 ppg in the reg season.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Payton was a much better player. One of the best defensive guards - 9x all defensive team, defensive poy.

Led the league in assists one year (8th in total assists in league history)

Led the league in steals a year (4th in league history)

Payton started to find his offensive game in his 5th season (94-95). That was KJs 105th season. GP made 70 threes that year. At the end of that season KJ had 50 for his career.

The best 2 pt FG % that KJ had in a single season where he actually played more than 6 games was .529. GP has seasons of .553, .553 and .532.

KJ was a little better getting to the line and a little better once there.

KJ had an edge on assists. 4 seasons over 10 per game and edges GP by almost 3 assists per 100 possessions. GP gets an extra rebound per 100, KJ turns out over an extra time per 100.

Their offensive games were different, but fairly close.

Defense wasn't close at all.

Even without the sexual abuse, slumlord, generally bad person cloud with KJ there is a reason why GP is in the HOF and KJ never will be

 

[Raze]

Payton was a much better player. One of the best defensive guards - 9x all defensive team, defensive poy.

Led the league in assists one year (8th in total assists in league history)

Led the league in steals a year (4th in league history)

Payton started to find his offensive game in his 5th season (94-95). That was KJs 105th season. GP made 70 threes that year. At the end of that season KJ had 50 for his career.

The best 2 pt FG % that KJ had in a single season where he actually played more than 6 games was .529. GP has seasons of .553, .553 and .532.

KJ was a little better getting to the line and a little better once there.

KJ had an edge on assists. 4 seasons over 10 per game and edges GP by almost 3 assists per 100 possessions. GP gets an extra rebound per 100, KJ turns out over an extra time per 100.

Their offensive games were different, but fairly close.

Defense wasn't close at all.

Even without the sexual abuse, slumlord, generally bad person cloud with KJ there is a reason why GP is in the HOF and KJ never will be

Wow, that last half was... uh... ridiculous.

"Edge on assists"? Edge!?! KJ had a 36% increase on apg than Payton. That's not an "edge". That's a slaughter. That's like winning a game 136 - 100 and saying they had an "edge" in the victory. That leads me to believe you either don't understand statistics or you don't understand what an "edge" is.

KJ had a 10% increase in ppg than Payton.

KJ was a full 15% increase than Payton in FT%. "A little better"? I also question your understanding of what "a little better" means.

KJ had a 6% increase, or an "edge", than Payton on FG%. Not much better, but "a little better".

Gary was not "fairly close" to KJ offensively. He was inferior to KJ by a healthy margin. Simply put: Payton was a better defender, KJ was a better offensive player.

Oh, and by the way... the first rule of trying to win an argument that you are going to lose is to go after a man's character. Funny that you closed with that. Those of us who spent time studying the intricacies of arguing see right through your obviously desperate attempt at character assassination. For future reference, you discredit much of what you said by making it subjective.

 

[Chaplin]

Payton was a much better player. One of the best defensive guards - 9x all defensive team, defensive poy.

Led the league in assists one year (8th in total assists in league history)

Led the league in steals a year (4th in league history)

Payton started to find his offensive game in his 5th season (94-95). That was KJs 105th season. GP made 70 threes that year. At the end of that season KJ had 50 for his career.

The best 2 pt FG % that KJ had in a single season where he actually played more than 6 games was .529. GP has seasons of .553, .553 and .532.

KJ was a little better getting to the line and a little better once there.

KJ had an edge on assists. 4 seasons over 10 per game and edges GP by almost 3 assists per 100 possessions. GP gets an extra rebound per 100, KJ turns out over an extra time per 100.

Their offensive games were different, but fairly close.

Defense wasn't close at all.

Even without the sexual abuse, slumlord, generally bad person cloud with KJ there is a reason why GP is in the HOF and KJ never will be

Just to clarify, aren't you from Seattle, and were you a Sonic fan before you were a Suns fan?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Payton was a much better player. One of the best defensive guards - 9x all defensive team, defensive poy.

Led the league in assists one year (8th in total assists in league history)

Led the league in steals a year (4th in league history)

Payton started to find his offensive game in his 5th season (94-95). That was KJs 105th season. GP made 70 threes that year. At the end of that season KJ had 50 for his career.

The best 2 pt FG % that KJ had in a single season where he actually played more than 6 games was .529. GP has seasons of .553, .553 and .532.

KJ was a little better getting to the line and a little better once there.

KJ had an edge on assists. 4 seasons over 10 per game and edges GP by almost 3 assists per 100 possessions. GP gets an extra rebound per 100, KJ turns out over an extra time per 100.

Their offensive games were different, but fairly close.

Defense wasn't close at all.

Even without the sexual abuse, slumlord, generally bad person cloud with KJ there is a reason why GP is in the HOF and KJ never will be

Injuries are the only reason KJ ain't in the hall. He put up 20/10 numbers in four straight years (I believe that puts him next to Isaiah and Magic) and would have continued to if not for injuries. His offensive game was MILES ahead of Payton when he was healthy.

KJ also wasn't the captain of a team that continually underachieved in the playoffs ", getting embarrassed in back to back years as a 55 plus win team getting their asses kicked out of back to back playoffs, one year being THE FIRST NUMBER ONE SEED EVER to lose in the first round... after being up 2-0! save one down year in the West when they beat a 50 win Utah club, they consistently underachieved and he was the leader.

 

[GatorAZ]

Payton is very underrated all time. His 10 year peak was phenomenal when you consider he was an all-NBA defender. He was a below average 3pt shooter so he'd probably be slightly less valuable in today's game but he was a complete player and tough.

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[GatorAZ]

I may or may not be a bit of a homer on Nash. I have Stockton right behind him. Although you won't here a strong argument from me over having Stockton above Nash at #5. Absolutely no way are either over Paul.

I would make a big deal of CP3's defense, apg, A/TO ratio, ppg, FG%, FT%, spg, and rpg. He's one of the best all around PG's of all time and has a COMPLETE game. Where's the weakness in his game? I guess 3pt FG%. But he's improved on that in his last 3 years. (.411 last year) Nash didn't have a complete game because of D. Steph doesn't have a complete game because of D and Assists. And c'mon, the main ingredient to any true PG has to be assists. It's pretty much THE stat that separates PGs from everyone else.

Just to compare Steph a bit with Paul:

Steph cleared 7.0 apg 2 times in 8 years.
Paul has been over 8.9 apg for 11 straight years.

Steph's A/TO is a paltry 2:1.
Paul's is 4:1.

Steph is a phenomenal shooter. Probably the best I've ever seen. But that doesn't make him a great PG. He's marginal at passing for a PG and poor at individual D. He doesn't clear Cousy, Payton, Kidd, or Stockton. No way.

The harder comparisons come with Jerry West, Tiny Archibald, and Walt Frazier.

And just to be clear. I'm a KJ guy. He was the reason I fell madly in love with the Suns. I consider him the most underrated PG of all time (mostly due to injuries). But I don't put him in the top 10 either. (no matter how much that pains me to say)

Yes if we're going strictly by PG "tools" then CP3 would have the edge but Steph Curry is just a flat out better player with a higher ceiling. He's an offensive juggernaut that changed the game.

Scottie Pippen was a better "all around" forward then Kevin Durant when you factor in defense and playmaking but KD can be the best player in the game when he wants to be.

Robinson was a more complete center than Shaq but Shaq was posting insane numbers in the playoffs that The Admiral wasn't capable of doing to that caliber. The more "dominant" player gets my vote.

 

[AZBALLER]

It's all subjective. KJ had a midrange pull-up, that i think is the best I've ever seen, but he could also blow by you. the refs just stopped calling the fouls in the playoffs in the old days.

 

[Raze]

Yes if we're going strictly by PG "tools" then CP3 would have the edge but Steph Curry is just a flat out better player with a higher ceiling. He's an offensive juggernaut that changed the game.

Scottie Pippen was a better "all around" forward then Kevin Durant when you factor in defense and playmaking but KD can be the best player in the game when he wants to be.

Robinson was a more complete center than Shaq but Shaq was posting insane numbers in the playoffs that The Admiral wasn't capable of doing to that caliber. The more "dominant" player gets my vote.

Good counter.

I think I might just have a different definition for PG than others, which I'm plainly confessing. Your argument is solid when the parameter of the discussion is "who is the best LABELED point guard", which I think most people abide by.

I just have hard time buying that some of these guys are properly labeled. Kind of like Steve Kerr. He was hardly a PG for the Bulls. Sure he brought the ball up sometimes, but he split time evenly with Jordan and Pippen. He was about as much of a PG as Jordan was. He was merely labeled PG because Jordan was SG and you don't start 2 SGs. He was PG because he was shorter(?).

So by the letter of the law Kerr was a PG. By the heart of the law he was a SG. I'm just a heart of the law kind of guy. I totally get why others are letter of the law.

LeBron is another fun one to throw into the mix. While he gets the label of SF, he most certainly plays the role of a PG. He's this generations Magic Johnson. (Which he is often compared). So rebutting myself... following the heart of the law I'd have to submit that Lebron is the 2nd best PG of all time. Which means I need to totally redo my list.

And.. because we're all kind of bored... I'll throw in a counter to my own counter. If Steph gets consideration for being dominant at other aspects, you would have to submit Kobe Bryant as a top 3 PG all time. He DID play PG. Sure, he was a mediocre passer on a miserable team, but he was utterly dominant at every other aspect. I don't see how he should get less consideration than Steph. (Ok, this is a massive stretch)

 

[Ronin]

Matt Petersen‏@TheMattPetersen 4m4 minutes ago




Per @bball_ref reference, Kevin Johnson has the second-most 20-point, 10-assist playoff games since 1984

 

[leclerc]

KJ was better than Payton. No doubt. Like Jordan was better than Clyde the glide.

 

[Mainstreet]

It's all subjective. KJ had a midrange pull-up, that i think is the best I've ever seen, but he could also blow by you. the refs just stopped calling the fouls in the playoffs in the old days.

Good point. When Kevin Johnson drove the ball to the basket he was fouled on almost every possession. The referees simply swallowed their whistles. He took a brutal beating creating an inside game for the Suns.