Bettcher, Pagano, and McCoy

[AZ Native]

Granted, points allowed do not tell the entire story. But they are the ONLY stat that matter at the end of the game. It is apparent you do not agree with that. Glad you don't want Bettcher as out head coach. The rest does not really matter at this point. Let's see how this all plays out. We all want the best.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Again, not at all what I said. Your debate tactic of trying to demean the other person rather than actually hold a discussion is starting to wear thin on me.

I have said: Points allowed don't tell the whole story
Bettcher had a surprisingly decent year
I don't want him to be our head coach

Hopefully those are clear enough for you.

We had a great defense this year, not elite but way better than average. If not, not every announcer would praise the defense covering the games, and other teams in their presser would not cite the ability of the defense. I will trust the observation to those who get paid to make an observation and average this defense was not. I also know this, not many teams could run on us. Yes, you can say that is because they where passing with ease and why run but every team wants to establish the run and they could not. We did have one ***** in the armor and it's the stat which reflects poorly on Bettcher, our ability to stop teams on third and long. I never saw a defense play so well and yet on third down could not provide a solution. I think that was fixed though once Bettcher simplified the defense... like players, sometimes a coach tries too hard and especially when your offense cannot score

 

[Cheesebeef]

Again, not at all what I said. Your debate tactic of trying to demean the other person rather than actually hold a discussion is starting to wear thin on me.

No one's forcing you to continue the discussion, Chris. Just like no one forced you to elevate the conversation by calling me a butthole before I stepped on the snark peddle. Get over yourself, dude.

I have said: Points allowed don't tell the whole story
Bettcher had a surprisingly decent year
I don't want him to be our head coach

Hopefully those are clear enough for you.

Points allowed don't tell the whole story... but YOU'RE the one who said the first metric of any defense is yardage, which just isn't true.

Reality is the D was okay... stats all across the board. Not great, not bad. Just there. The idea that others are calling it "great" is laughable.

Now you can act indignant, act above the fray while calling me a buttonhole again if that makes you feel better, but don’t pretend I was alone being a douche in the convo.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

I wouldn't be opposed to the pairing; of some solid Coordinators with Betcher. It's not the sexiest of moves. But it could be way worse. McCoy would basically taking over Arians offense which I hated; Betcher and an Pagano would run the D. Defense would stay the same with Pagano helping Betch. I mean Pat's coordinators always suck; Shurmer as OC but head coach doesn't sound so great. I would be for keeping familiarity and blowing up current offense and Special teams

 

[oaken1]

I wouldn't be opposed to the pairing; of some solid Coordinators with Betcher. It's not the sexiest of moves. But it could be way worse. McCoy would basically taking over Arians offense which I hated; Betcher and an Pagano would run the D. Defense would stay the same with Pagano helping Betch. I mean Pat's coordinators always suck; Shurmer as OC but head coach doesn't sound so great. I would be for keeping familiarity and blowing up current offense and Special teams

some continuity could be good. The problem with Betch is he cant have too many contacts,...he was a personal assistant for Pagano before BA brought him here and made him a coach..

as for Pagano... he has an impressive record as a DC and as a ST coach... but as a HC it gets sketchy... he obviously oversaw the dumping of Manning,... then BA took his team to 11-5....
followed by 2 more 11-5 seasons,..then two 8-8 seasons, then a 4-12 season...

of course having Luck missing time would hurt any coach...

I wouldnt be against Pagano as ST's coach or DC... he has a history of coaching the hell out of a secondary and getting lots of takeaways

could he take orders from his former personal assistant?

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Can't be sure that some lingering effects would remain with Bettcher at HC.

Why would those 2 coaches come here as coordinators?

Waiting to be hired for HC again somewhere else? So temporary patch and not long term solution?

IMO we need to clean out the entire staff and start fresh. Give the new coach and staff the ability to instill their system and ethics.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Bettcher:

How many times did the D look unprepared?

How many times did the D start out slow?

How many times did he not make adjustments?

How many first drive 2nd half yards and points did the D give up?

How many times did the D make strong plays on 1st and 2nd down only to play soft on 3rd and give up just enough yards for the 1st?

How many wide open WR's/TE's were there time after time?

How many times were players out of position to make plays due to mismatches or soft zones?

How many yards did the D give up on screens?

How many times did the soft D give confidence to backup/struggling QB's by allowing them to get into a rhythm by giving them too much time in the pocket? (example: Savage)

There may be more I'm missing.

One thing I will give him credit for is his D played the run really well at times.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Bettcher has done a nice job. Is he ready to be a HC? I doubt it but he's generally regarded as a pretty impressive coach when you hear others talk about him.

As for the stats debate, you can't look at points allowed in a vacuum. A lot goes into that. My biggest complaint this year for the Cards defense was their 3rd down defense. It got better as the year went along but it was atrocious at the beginning of the year.

 

[pemory09]

I would not be excited about this at all. Not a big Bettcher fan and even less of a believer in Pagano & McCoy. Indy has looked uninspired for the past two seasons and the Chargers blew McCoy out as HC, then Denver blew him out as OC (all in less than 2 seasons IIRC). I’m a bit of a Chargers fan and, from what I observed, McCoy’s best attribute was being Denver’s OC when Peyton Manning signed-on there. Otherwise McCoy brought little else to the table.

 

[azsouthendzone]

Can't be sure that some lingering effects would remain with Bettcher at HC.

Why would those 2 coaches come here as coordinators?

Waiting to be hired for HC again somewhere else? So temporary patch and not long term solution?

IMO we need to clean out the entire staff and start fresh. Give the new coach and staff the ability to instill their system and ethics.

If you are doing it right, your coordinators will always be temporary and highly coveted.

 

[azsouthendzone]

Bettcher:

How many times did the D look unprepared?

How many times did the D start out slow?

How many times did he not make adjustments?

How many first drive 2nd half yards and points did the D give up?

How many times did the D make strong plays on 1st and 2nd down only to play soft on 3rd and give up just enough yards for the 1st?

How many wide open WR's/TE's were there time after time?

How many times were players out of position to make plays due to mismatches or soft zones?

How many yards did the D give up on screens?

How many times did the soft D give confidence to backup/struggling QB's by allowing them to get into a rhythm by giving them too much time in the pocket? (example: Savage)

There may be more I'm missing.

One thing I will give him credit for is his D played the run really well at times.

To answer your questions - rarely.

 

[cardpa]

The whole Bettcher, Pagano & McCoy scenario just looks too messy to me. I almost feel like Arians would still be coaching this team from his recliner at home. I just don't like it. I would rather see a fresh start with an entirely new staff.

 

[sdscard4]

The D was fine. They were put in bad positions every game. The biggest issue was the o line and missed throws with a sprinkling of ST on top. How many games did we continuously watch our QB being mauled ? Most were when the game started. This season for me was horrendous from an O line and ST POV......and we still finished 8-8

 

[Dback Jon]

By all means, let's PROMOTE the DC who's defenses in the last three years have slid from the 5th best scoring D in the league in Bowles last season to 13th his first year, 14th his second year and 19th his final season.

Elevating mediocrity and the arrow turning downward is a great way for the team to get ahead.

And before you throw in "Oh, we had a bad offense this year!" or "Short fields and turnovers!" excuse for any of those years, that 2014 club's offense was atrocious as well and Bowles was still able to bring his D to the table almost every game regardless of points.

But many on here think Bettcher is the GREATEST EVER D coordinator - you saw the thread I started...laughable how easily fooled the board "experts" are by meaningless stats, when SCORING D is the only one that really matters.

D the almost cost us again Sunday, saved only by a crappy FG kicker.

 

[Dback Jon]

The D was fine. They were put in bad positions every game. The biggest issue was the o line and missed throws with a sprinkling of ST on top. How many games did we continuously watch our QB being mauled ? Most were when the game started. This season for me was horrendous from an O line and ST POV......and we still finished 8-8

You mean they put themselves in bad positions, with too many WIDE OPEN recievers.

 

[juza76]

new chapter new actors, calling someone from old staff could be a problem, cause he has more connections with players and this can harm the process

 

[sdscard4]

You mean they put themselves in bad positions, with too many WIDE OPEN recievers.

One man pass rush. And when Golden was healthy you had Bethel and a soft badger. I think badger is trusting his legs more. Is he badger of old? No. They also waited to long to play Tramon..........STILL 8-8

 

[Dback Jon]

One man pass rush. And when Golden was healthy you had Bethel and a soft badger. I think badger is trusting his legs more. Is he badger of old? No. They also waited to long to play Tramon..........STILL 8-8

I didn't realize that having wide open receivers, seconds after the snap was the D-lines fault. Of course, if Bettcher was expecting them to cover a man and rush the passer at the same time, that would be a problem.

 

[wa52lz]

Here are TDs and PTS per game allowed by the D only (return and TD's scored by the opponents D have been removed) Based on NFL.com's state page.
2013- 34 19.81
2014- 31 18.25
2015- 33 19.13
2016- 37 20.88
2017- 36 20.37

Bowels best D gave up 2.63 pts a game less then Betcher worst. 2013-2015 only one non-def TD was allowed each year all on turnovers, 2016 4 (1 ret and 3 d), 2017 5 (1 ret and 4 d)

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...onType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

 

[splitsecond]

It is incredible how ignorant and clouded by feelings some of you are in dismissing this but supporting a dismal failure with poo offensive system like Pat Shurmur.

 

[Jake6233]

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account@RapSheet
Source: The #AZCardinals are slated to interview in-house candidate defensive coordinator James Bettcher for their head coach position. It will be their first interview and could happen as soon as tomorrow, source said.


Getting the Bettcher interview out of the way first it looks like.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It is incredible how ignorant and clouded by feelings some of you are in dismissing this but supporting a dismal failure with **** offensive system like Pat Shurmur.

Can you support your claims of failure with Shurmur? This year Minnesota has the 11th ranked offense and a 1st round bye with Case Keenum, Adam Thielen, and Latavius Murray leading the way. Below is from wki:

With Philly:In 2002, Shurmur was named the team’s quarterback coach. In that role, Shumur helped shape Donovan McNabb into the most prolific passer in Eagles history. McNabb holds nearly every Eagles career passing record, and in 2008, he set Eagles single-season records with 345 completions and 3,916 yards. In 2004, Shurmur and McNabb helped guide the Eagles to their first Super Bowl appearance since the 1980 season.

With Rams: He helped the Rams improve to a 7–9 record following a 1–15 season in 2009, the second-biggest turnaround in the league in 2010. He guided St. Louis’ offense to improvements in nearly every category including total yards, time of possession and third-down percentage, while they also scored 114 more points than the previous year. In addition, the Rams committed just 21 turnovers in 2010, tied for the ninth-lowest total in the NFL.

With Cleve: Part of the reason Shurmur was hired was the team wanted him to call the plays on offense as Holmgren did in Green Bay and Seattle. Another reason for the hire was Shurmur's past success of developing young quarterbacks such as McNabb and Bradford. The Browns selected quarterback Colt McCoy in the third round of the 2010 NFL Draft, and in McCoy’s first season with Shurmur as his coach, the former University of Texas standout posted the best season of his professional career to date in 2011, throwing for 2,733 yards and 14 touchdown passes in 13 games.

With Philly again:
Working alongside new head coach Chip Kelly, Shurmur helped orchestrate one of the most efficient offenses in the NFL. Shurmur led an offense that set a number of team records, including points (442), total net yards (6,676), touchdowns (53), passing yards (4,406) and fewest turnovers (19) en route to an NFC East title. Additionally, the Eagles set an NFL record with 99 plays of 20+ yards and became the first team since the 1991 Buffalo Bills to lead the league in rushing while ranking last in time of possession.

Shurmur’s unique ability to develop young talent at the quarterback position was once again on display in 2013. Second-year QB Nick Foles enjoyed a breakout season under the direction of Shurmur, throwing for 27 touchdowns and only two interceptions while posting the third-best QB rating (119.2) and third-lowest interception percentage (0.63%) in NFL history.

 

[azsouthendzone]

Bettcher is getting the first interview. Come on Bettcher get er done!

 

[Metcalf Rules]

WDLT? What does Larry think?

 

[wa52lz]

Can you support your claims of failure with Shurmur? This year Minnesota has the 11th ranked offense and a 1st round bye with Case Keenum, Adam Thielen, and Latavius Murray leading the way. Below is from wki:

With Philly:In 2002, Shurmur was named the team’s quarterback coach. In that role, Shumur helped shape Donovan McNabb into the most prolific passer in Eagles history. McNabb holds nearly every Eagles career passing record, and in 2008, he set Eagles single-season records with 345 completions and 3,916 yards. In 2004, Shurmur and McNabb helped guide the Eagles to their first Super Bowl appearance since the 1980 season.

With Rams: He helped the Rams improve to a 7–9 record following a 1–15 season in 2009, the second-biggest turnaround in the league in 2010. He guided St. Louis’ offense to improvements in nearly every category including total yards, time of possession and third-down percentage, while they also scored 114 more points than the previous year. In addition, the Rams committed just 21 turnovers in 2010, tied for the ninth-lowest total in the NFL.

With Cleve: Part of the reason Shurmur was hired was the team wanted him to call the plays on offense as Holmgren did in Green Bay and Seattle. Another reason for the hire was Shurmur's past success of developing young quarterbacks such as McNabb and Bradford. The Browns selected quarterback Colt McCoy in the third round of the 2010 NFL Draft, and in McCoy’s first season with Shurmur as his coach, the former University of Texas standout posted the best season of his professional career to date in 2011, throwing for 2,733 yards and 14 touchdown passes in 13 games.

With Philly again:
Working alongside new head coach Chip Kelly, Shurmur helped orchestrate one of the most efficient offenses in the NFL. Shurmur led an offense that set a number of team records, including points (442), total net yards (6,676), touchdowns (53), passing yards (4,406) and fewest turnovers (19) en route to an NFC East title. Additionally, the Eagles set an NFL record with 99 plays of 20+ yards and became the first team since the 1991 Buffalo Bills to lead the league in rushing while ranking last in time of possession.

Shurmur’s unique ability to develop young talent at the quarterback position was once again on display in 2013. Second-year QB Nick Foles enjoyed a breakout season under the direction of Shurmur, throwing for 27 touchdowns and only two interceptions while posting the third-best QB rating (119.2) and third-lowest interception percentage (0.63%) in NFL history.

I think what he's done with MN this year is remarkable, but i'm not sure how much weight I put on the rest of it.

With Phily- Brad Childress was there as McNabb's first QB coach and then OC until 2005, Dowhower was the OC the first three years, Marty Mornhinweg was there 2003 on, and not to mention Andy Reid, were all part of McNabb's development.

With STL- took over for Linehan HC and Al Saunders OC who's 2008 Rams O was 30th in Pts and 27th in yds. Under Shurmer in 2009 they were 32nd and 29th and 2010 26th and 26th.

HC in CLE- went 4-12 and 5-11. The offense under Brian Daboll was 31st in pts and 29th in yds in 2010. Under Shumur they improved to 30th and 29th in 2011 and 24th and 25th in 2012. Granted its the Browns so any improvement should be magnified.

Phily Under Kelly- Offense was very impressive, but wasn't that Kelly's system and play calling? I don't know if anyone can say how much input he had.

Defiantly did wonders improving MN offense from 23rd in pts and 28th in yds in 2016 to 10th and 11th this year with Case Keenum and Co.! Which makes him very intriguing to me.