Bickley feels victory costly (lost lower Draft Pick)

[RugbyMuffin]

It's all in the talent evaluation and building. Drafting is only a part of it.

I 100% agree.

I think our talent evaluation has a couple problems:

A. On any level the organization is poor in evaluation. Almost like they "luck out" when they find a drafted player, or FA that is any good.

B. They rarely think outside the box. I.E. Nobody says it is against league rules to start Darnell Dockett as a 4-3 DE. Or put Calais at OLB. Or put Wilson as LB.

C. Drafting players that work within your system. More specifically, what is your team's philosophy. We running or throwing ? Shutting down the run on defense or opportunistic ?

D. Using our talent correctly. Am I the only one that noticed Beanie Wells' first run last night. Hand the ball off, Wells runs north/south, SMASH!, 8 yards. Uh, where the hell has that been all year ?

 

[Krangodnzr]

I am okay with this point of view.

I happen to think Cam Newton is going to be pretty good, and I think the impending NC game and the exposure will make much of this board start to drool over him (I live in FLA so I watch more SEC football then I care to admit) and want him with the pick. I see alot of Buyers Remorse if we don't get him. He's so much better throwing and running then Vince Young its ridiculous.

And Peterson will be gone in the Top 3. Maybe even #2.

I doubt Peterson will go before Fairley. Fairley is an absolute beast, he's the #1B best player on a team playing for the National Championship (with Newton being #1A).

I say, as I've said repeatedly, go Bowers if we have the #6 pick and he's there. As we've seen in the past two weeks, Campbell has been playing lights out as a 4-3 DE, and if we put Bowers next to Dockett our defensive line will be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[oaken1]

I 100% agree.

I think our talent evaluation has a couple problems:

A. On any level the organization is poor in evaluation. Almost like they "luck out" when they find a drafted player, or FA that is any good.

B. They rarely think outside the box. I.E. Nobody says it is against league rules to start Darnell Dockett as a 4-3 DE. Or put Calais at OLB. Or put Wilson as LB.

C. Drafting players that work within your system. More specifically, what is your team's philosophy. We running or throwing ? Shutting down the run on defense or opportunistic ?

D. Using our talent correctly. Am I the only one that noticed Beanie Wells' first run last night. Hand the ball off, Wells runs north/south, SMASH!, 8 yards. Uh, where the hell has that been all year ?

True,...then when we really needed a few yards,.....some idiot calls student body right out of the shotgun formation...............??

 

[SuperSpck]

Top ten picks are overrated (most notably Cardinal top picks).
Look at Cardinal top-ten* picks:

Garrison Hearst
Jamir Miller
Simeon Rice
Tom Knight
Andre Wadsworth
David Boston
Thomas Jones
Leonard Davis
Wendell Bryant (*@ 12, close enough to count)
Larry Fitzgerald
Antrel Rolle
Matt Leinart
Levi Brown

Now, there are some nice players on that list, but only Fitzgerald has proven to be "the pick" as evidenced by his statistical assent to hall of "really frickin' good" only Davis and Rice are close sniffing the same ballpark.

The team's recent history is to draft on need. This means a QB or a rush linebacker.
It also means reaching for the next-best guy left on the board , regardless of if it's a value-appropriate pick (see Levi).

In all likelihood they're going to take the right position, but miss on the right guy.

Perhaps I'm a draft pessimist.

 

[earthsci]

or Eli/Rivers instead of *gasp* Fitz?

We could have drafted Rivers. I get your point but it isn't really where we draft, it's who. We haven't tried that hard to draft QB's, recently. We failed once, if we count first rounders. Do we do it again or not? If we do, we do our homework. Think of all of the starting QBs in the NFL that we could have drafted. There is a lot of good ones (Brees, Rivers, Ben R., Freeman, etc.) that we could have been the ones to draft. Losing defines you.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I 100% agree.

I think our talent evaluation has a couple problems:

A. On any level the organization is poor in evaluation. Almost like they "luck out" when they find a drafted player, or FA that is any good.

As critical as I am of Rod Graves and the front office, our drafts have improved dramatically from the 90's and the earlier part of this decade. Look at this past draft class, and you'll see that FIVE players contributed to yesterday's win. That's pretty good.

B. They rarely think outside the box. I.E. Nobody says it is against league rules to start Darnell Dockett as a 4-3 DE. Or put Calais at OLB. Or put Wilson as LB.

No offense, but it's because all those ideas suck. Dockett IMO would be average as a 4-3 defensive end as would Calais at OLB. They're GOOD as a tackle and a LE. Wilson would flat out SUCK as a LB.

C. Drafting players that work within your system. More specifically, what is your team's philosophy. We running or throwing ? Shutting down the run on defense or opportunistic ?

I think you're correct here, but a lot of this has to do with so many holes despite our playoff credentials. We need a strong infusion of talent on the offensive line.

D. Using our talent correctly. Am I the only one that noticed Beanie Wells' first run last night. Hand the ball off, Wells runs north/south, SMASH!, 8 yards. Uh, where the hell has that been all year ?

I disagree here. Our offensive line fails to execute so often that we just don't succeed in running that type of scheme often. It works in spurts as we've seen all year. We have the horses to run the scheme (THT and Wells) but we don't have the track (the offensive line). They've been terrible this year.

Going forward I think the only two guys on the line that are keepers are Lutui and Keith. Keith was playing good football when he was injured after a horrific start. He's IMO hands down our best tackle, a mammoth run blocker and has the feet to block the slower edge rushers at right tackle.

I love the idea of drafting Bowers with our pick, but we may have to consider Left Tackle Derrek Sherrod of Mississippi State. He has the potential to be a pretty good left tackle in the NFL and he has excelled in a run blocking scheme.

Heck, I wouldn't mind both our first and second round picks drafting offensive line.

 

[ARZCardinals]

To beat Dallas on a national game I would have t
Lost the 1st pick and gone to the 20th and been happy.

I HATE Dallas and their roach base of fans.

 

[WisconsinCard]

You always play to win. If you don't, that must mean you are playing to lose. Ever hear of the Black Sox? To me there is not much difference throwing a game for gambling purposes and throwing one for a better draft spot. A huge amount of money is bet on games, and the bettors are expecting that teams will be putting forth their best efforts.

I personally hate preseason games because most teams don't play those to win, they are played for player evaluation, and I get that. However, It costs the fan the same amount of money to attend a preseason game as a regular season game; which game is more enjoyable to watch?

Another good example is when a team has already clinched their playoff spot and they trot in their second stringers like the Colts did a few years back. I'm sure the average Colt fan was thrilled to pay full price to see Jim Sorgi come out to play instead of Peyton Manning.

And how do you explain your sudden intent to lose a game to your players, who you have drafted in the past for their good character and winning attitude, and who have always played to win at every level. "Hey Skelton, we don't want you to win this game because we are looking at drafting Cam Newton next year to take your job away from you."

I just don't see how any ethical coach or front office man or player could ever want to lose a game intentionally. I also find it hard to believe a fan could want that, too.

Words of reason...my man! If you really wany to build for the future, instead of tanking games why not try and trade your/our first round pick (6 or11) for a first round pick in the next two years? Then you have four first rounders in the next two years. Now there is an ethical way to plan for the future. The reason is because coaches are playing for their jobs, so they'll be building the team for their next coach.

 

[Unsterblich856]

Beat the cowboys and we lost our ability to draft Newton? A great x-mas indeed.

 

[ReddBird]

Should they have played to lose?

I love the win. Best of the season, by far.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

You always play to win. If you don't, that must mean you are playing to lose. Ever hear of the Black Sox? To me there is not much difference throwing a game for gambling purposes and throwing one for a better draft spot. A huge amount of money is bet on games, and the bettors are expecting that teams will be putting forth their best efforts.

I personally hate preseason games because most teams don't play those to win, they are played for player evaluation, and I get that. However, It costs the fan the same amount of money to attend a preseason game as a regular season game; which game is more enjoyable to watch?

Another good example is when a team has already clinched their playoff spot and they trot in their second stringers like the Colts did a few years back. I'm sure the average Colt fan was thrilled to pay full price to see Jim Sorgi come out to play instead of Peyton Manning.

And how do you explain your sudden intent to lose a game to your players, who you have drafted in the past for their good character and winning attitude, and who have always played to win at every level. "Hey Skelton, we don't want you to win this game because we are looking at drafting Cam Newton next year to take your job away from you."

I just don't see how any ethical coach or front office man or player could ever want to lose a game intentionally. I also find it hard to believe a fan could want that, too.

Your talkng about the coaches and players. OF COURSE they are playing to win. HCs records are hugely important on if they are retained. Why would players like Skelton want to be in a position where a player like Newton comes in and takes his job. Yes undoubtedly I want coaches and players playng to win every game.

But I am talking about as a fan. Why should I cheer for meaningless wins in December that could alter our franchise for years to come?

Thats my point. That McCown useless TD to beat Minnesota was worthless and might have cost us the QBOF we could really use now. That us assuming alot, but I would rather we had that choice.

I agree with many of the posters who say its all about evaluation moreso then where you draft. But I am obssessed with finally getting our QBOF (see the way I clung to hope in Leinart) and your chances of securing that guy are best towards the top of the draft.

Saying all this its important to realize a few things. I think we are in the #6 spot now. If Buffalo and/or Detroit get another win we move back up to 5 or 4. Not to mention Buffalo, Denver, or Detroit are unlikely to draft the #2 QB off the board.

So all is not lost really. My worry is that with this win and possibly another next week, the FO and coaching staff tricks itself into thinking only band aids are needed. Hell no. Get rid of Davis, lets get a REAL OC, and lets address the QB position like our lives depend on it.

 

[Red Dawn]

AF, as you know there are other ways to move up in a draft without losing a game, like trading a pick or player if a team really needs to move up. Like I said before, I can't fathom wanting the Cards to lose a game ever.

MCD got it right in his earlier post this thread, the Pats alway pick at the bottom of the round and they are the best at evaluating and finding players.

I'm probably alone in this, but I usually prefer worrying about the draft after the NFL season and after the bowl games. It's always apparent when the Cards have a bad year because the draft talk starts around game 6.

 

[40yearfan]

It looks like we'll have the 6th pick if we lose to the 49ers or the 11th pick if we beat them.

I'd much rather have the 11th pick. It's well worth it just to beat the Niners.

 

[Red Dawn]

I'd much rather have the 11th pick. It's well worth it just to beat the Niners.

 

[desertdawg]

Bickley can lickley on this one. Go Cards, destroy the 9ers and their playoff hopes.

 

[splitsecond]

Bickley back to the norm. No care ever. Beating the Cowboys is the best.

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

I used to adhere to the Dan Bickley philosophy, but have come to the conclusion that thinking that way is just a losing mentality. Winning is learned as is losing. Win as many games as possible and let the draft fall where it may.

Great win yesterday. I'm also on the draft Bowers bandwagon. He would be a perfect compliment for the transition to the 4-3 defense.

 

[oaken1]

Bickley can lickley on this one. Go Cards, destroy the 9ers and their playoff hopes.

Yo Dawg,....Niners playoff hopes are being destroyed right now.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Bickley is a hater and runs with a losers mentality. He's lucky he gets to take the contrarian opinion no matter what the team does. If the lose, he complains the team has quit and if they win he says they should throw games.

 

[Rats]

http://www.valleycentral.com/And to avoid the annoying debate that goes with that statement, my only backing of the situation is if you don't understand why you always play to win, then you will never understand it.

I can't and never have seen how anyone can see it any other way than this. Well stated. You always play to win. Period. This Cowboy win for me, salvaged this putrid season from being the worst I have seen as a fan. It was done in exciting fashion and as a fan I loved every minute of seeing the Cowpies crushed. A draft pick a couple of spots earlier after this kinda season would be nice but never at the expense of WINNING. After losing to Carolina this showed that the coaches and players did not quit on the fans and forces even there harshest critics(I am one) to re-evaluate some areas that we voiced concern.
There are ways to fix the Oline and Qb position( Although Skelton could be our guy) other than draft picks and we need to see Graves,Whiz and the front office do it. I would prefer Graves was gone but if not then he needs to get guys that fix obvious problems thru FA.

 

[oaken1]

Bickley is a hater and runs with a losers mentality. He's lucky he gets to take the contrarian opinion no matter what the team does. If the lose, he complains the team has quit and if they win he says they should throw games.

Bickley and his walking dead zombie boy toy friend should both be banned from ever discussing Cardinal football.

 

[Derm]

Merry F-ing Christmas Bickley - You are just an Ass

 

[desertdawg]

Yo Dawg,....Niners playoff hopes are being destroyed right now.

This weekend just keeps getting better.

 

[ajcardfan]

I am not pissed we lost and frankly it was a nice way to end Xmas. But I don't think Bickley is stupid for pointing out the long term ramifications.

In fact I wonder about those fans who say they want to cheer for a division winner again, aren't more aware of these things.

Dude, you wanted us to lose 72-0, which I will NEVER understand. I also wonder about those fans who don't seem to understand a particular draft position is worth jack squat if you don't pick the right player. No matter where we wind up drafting in the first round, there are going to be a LOT of players who could be studs for us next year, returning us to the playoffs.

 

[Bert]

You mean Dickley had an opportunity to be a negative crybaby about the Cardinals and he took it? OMG that's so unlike him. He's usually so super positive about the Cardinals.

Couldn't care less about anything he has to say.