Bidwill Isn't Committed but Should Be.

[joeshmo]

Just more evidence to support the theory that Bill Sr still controls the checkbook.

Which is fine with me, or did you just ignore post #14 in this thread because it best suits your purposes?

 

[joeshmo]

We are still dealing with rookie 1st rd draft picks contracts with crazy escalators. Buckybird found the article that this was Dollar Bills doing.

You mean the same escalators that are in every single top 10 picks contract over the last 15 years done by every single team in the NFL. Those escalators? The Escalators that finally put our contracts into the 21st century compared to the rest of the NFL.

It only bit us in the butt because of Graves snail pace by redoing the deals before the escalators hit like the rest of the NFL, not because of money or ownership incompetence.

Again lets not let facts get in the way of a good old fashion ownership bashing that is about 5 years to late.

Ownership and FO has a lot of things still to fix but anyone who still thinks its Contract structure or Money just isn't paying attention to FACTS at all.

 

[Cardiac]

Which is fine with me, or did you just ignore post #14 in this thread because it best suits your purposes?

Sorry Joe, missed that post. Iv'e been jumping around in threads and typing novels today so I simply missed it.

I do recall your countless (not a slam) posts on how the Cards have spent money since Whiz has arrived. Can you explain the reports that have us $41 million under the "cap". Yes I know there is no cap this year.

I don't want to be misunderstood, I am thrilled with the change in culture and direction the FO has taken since Michael has come on board. I've posted that countless times as well. But when something like our current QB situation happens I have to wonder how and who is responsible.

I'm not enraged by the loss of LOS or Rolle or that we dumped CB's Hood and McFadden for salary purposes. I don't expect or want the Bidwills to spend like Snyder.

If the Cards extend Duece and Stevie and Watson etc this season then it's all good and I will eat crow about the money spent on players this year. If we don't use some of the savings (as reported) to address the potential turn over on the team then a smell a bowtie.

 

[Hollywood]

How else do you explain letting Warner visit the 49ers as an unrestricted FA after he takes the team to the Super Bowl? If the 49ers knew what they know now about their QBs they sign Warner and these problems would have started last year. At the time ESPN after a period of praising the Cardinals ridiculed them for their handling of Warner. They attributed it to the same old irrelavent Cardinals instead of their newer winning approach. If Brady were a FA do you think NE lets him visit the Jets?

I explain it like this. Two sides that dissagree with what Warner should make and decide to get an outside opinion. Enter the hapless 49ers. Warner goes there to get 3rd party view on what he should make and goes back to the Cardinals with the info. Long time fans should recognise this because we were the hapless 3rd party for so long. Players would come here for leverage with no intention of signing. Most people recognised what Warner was doing and I for one was happy that we got to be on the other side of it.

That is not cheap ownership. That is contract negotiations 101.

Would you have preferred the team just hand Warner a blank check and let him and his agent fill in the amount?

 

[Cardiac]

You mean the same escalators that are in every single top 10 picks contract over the last 15 years done by every single team in the NFL. Those escalators? The Escalators that finally put our contracts into the 21st century compared to the rest of the NFL.

It only bit us in the butt because of Graves snail pace by redoing the deals before the escalators hit like the rest of the NFL, not because of money or ownership incompetence.

Again lets not let facts get in the way of a good old fashion ownership bashing that is about 5 years to late.

Ownership and FO has a lot of things still to fix but anyone who still thinks its Contract structure or Money just isn't paying attention to FACTS at all.

Joe, I know you are the man with contracts and the salary cap so maybe you can clear some stuff up for me. It was my understanding that with Fitz's and ML's contracts there was a different and better way to structure the escalators. Maybe Buckybird can supply the article that I'm referring to.

If you want to talk facts about ownership then we can have that discussion.

I will stand behind 60+ years of ineptitude from Bill Sr and concede the improvements since Michael as arrived.

Don't know why it is okay to bash RG but Bill Sr is off limits.

Please answer me this, do you truly believe if Michael hand't come on board we would have experienced the SB and 2 consecutive NFCW championships?

 

[Cardiac]

I explain it like this. Two sides that dissagree with what Warner should make and decide to get an outside opinion. Enter the hapless 49ers. Warner goes there to get 3rd party view on what he should make and goes back to the Cardinals with the info. Long time fans should recognise this because we were the hapless 3rd party for so long. Players would come here for leverage with no intention of signing. Most people recognised what Warner was doing and I for one was happy that we got to be on the other side of it.

That is not cheap ownership. That is contract negotiations 101.

Would you have preferred the team just hand Warner a blank check and let him and his agent fill in the amount?

As someone else posted you don't think that Kraft or Polian would treat their QB's that way, do you?

Here is what I think. RG and Whiz explain to Michael what it will take to re-sign KW. This info has to be rolled up to Bill Sr.. Since he has no clue he balks and RG is forced to low ball KW. This sent in motion the trip to Sanfran etc. It all worked out for us but why the extra drama?

 

[joeshmo]

Here is what I think. RG and Whiz explain to Michael what it will take to re-sign KW. This info has to be rolled up to Bill Sr.. Since he has no clue he balks and RG is forced to low ball KW. This sent in motion the trip to Sanfran etc. It all worked out for us but why the extra drama?

This issue was on Graves. He would rather let another team tell him what a players market value is then actually set it himself. See Warner, See the contracts offered to Rolle and Dansby after they already had offers from the Giants and Maimi, see free agents leaving the facility without contract offers only to offer them a contract a day or two later. His snail pace in negotiations only adds to that drama. He is so afraid of getting ripped off after the deals he gave to Al Johnson, Laboy, a few other FA's, and a few other extensions that it is effecting his thinking to this day for slam dunk deals IMO.

Graves is light years better then he was especially with his staff, scouting staff(which a lot of teams wished they had), and coaching staff decisions and letting them do their jobs. But I know for a fact just how much agents get frustrated with not with his offers but his negotiating style.

 

[Doug]

Funny how as soon as things aren't going so well, the discontent with the front office rises. Not that long ago the board had nothing but praise and admiration with the FO and the scouts. Mr. B was considered out of the picture when it came to picks and signings and the money was flowing like water. Then the picture becomes cloudy and out comes the Mr. B is cheap, Mr. B is not committed to winning, the FO is a joke and the scouts all need a cane and a German Shepherd - all of them 180 degrees out of phase.

I wish I could find that photo of the flaming bag over his head - it's a portrait of a few multi-posters here.

Excuse me but this was ALL before a team CHANGING MASS EXCODUS occured in this past off-season,and the smoke clears and we see DOLLAR BILL is back when you see the teams spending compared to the rest of the league.

I'm not one to ever throw himself into this MESS but more Money sooner would have turned Dansby's HEAD.It was just WRONG!!! Sorry.The list of who we missed on and passed on has just gotten too long now.

Some people don't change for good.I think we took steps backwards trying to cut corners.Really looks bad now too.Can't hide it from those who know everything that was passed up and mis-stepped on.There is NO Excuses.Some kind of plan was in place and it has failed so far.

Even an attempt was made to ask Kurt back.The dude has contracts with ABC,NFL Network for WeD. nights and the games he is signed to do this season already.SI_PeterKing

RT @RikParker: How long til Arizona pays #dwts 2 drop Warner to get that former grocery bagger back? ... Already tried. Not happening.

This Front office including coaches just screwed the pooch.Yes after 2 games Larry Fitzgerald has the same amount of catches as he did after two games last year with 10 more yards and one LESS TD than he had at the same time,but do you think this is a slow start like last season?

I think we stocked the shelves with dated goods."Soon to expire"!Glad Schofield believes he can contribute the sacks we need after the 6TH week of the season.We'll see if Beanie practices today.I love this team or I would'nt spend so much time keeping up with every detail going on with them.

I have every Cardinal player with a twitter account along with every NFL in the know person so I can keep up plus read all their stuff on us daily.

I think we messed up this year and we can fix it, but it may take more than a year to do it.

 

[Doug]

As someone else posted you don't think that Kraft or Polian would treat their QB's that way, do you?

Here is what I think. RG and Whiz explain to Michael what it will take to re-sign KW. This info has to be rolled up to Bill Sr.. Since he has no clue he balks and RG is forced to low ball KW. This sent in motion the trip to Sanfran etc. It all worked out for us but why the extra drama?

Most of the time dealings like this DON'T work out.The Cardinals knew Warner wanted to stay put and used it against him.99% of the players are'nt wanting to stay put and out front about it as Warner was in the press and other negotiating tactics must be used.

Those tactics are failing at a VERY,VERY high rate with many contracts now lined up in a row once more.Lets see what happens this time.Now that we lost our Key defensive player Coach Davis built his "D" perswonally around.

I HATE "Spilt Milk" conversations and debates but this last off-season was special.The sky is'nt falling but when does it stop.Just look at how low the Cards have gone in just ONE offseason?Its not good.Many of the players we have now STARTING need to be replaced now.Thats worth a little concern don't you think?

 

[Doug]

This issue was on Graves. He would rather let another team tell him what a players market value is then actually set it himself. See Warner, See the contracts offered to Rolle and Dansby after they already had offers from the Giants and Maimi, see free agents leaving the facility without contract offers only to offer them a contract a day or two later. His snail pace in negotiations only adds to that drama. He is so afraid of getting ripped off after the deals he gave to Al Johnson, Laboy, a few other FA's, and a few other extensions that it is effecting his thinking to this day for slam dunk deals IMO.

Graves is light years better then he was especially with his staff, scouting staff(which a lot of teams wished they had), and coaching staff decisions and letting them do their jobs. But I know for a fact just how much agents get frustrated with not with his offers but his negotiating style.

Very good post fom the Big Meanie who knows his stuff.

 

[Cardiac]

This issue was on Graves. He would rather let another team tell him what a players market value is then actually set it himself. See Warner, See the contracts offered to Rolle and Dansby after they already had offers from the Giants and Maimi, see free agents leaving the facility without contract offers only to offer them a contract a day or two later. His snail pace in negotiations only adds to that drama. He is so afraid of getting ripped off after the deals he gave to Al Johnson, Laboy, a few other FA's, and a few other extensions that it is effecting his thinking to this day for slam dunk deals IMO.

Graves is light years better then he was especially with his staff, scouting staff(which a lot of teams wished they had), and coaching staff decisions and letting them do their jobs. But I know for a fact just how much agents get frustrated with not with his offers but his negotiating style.

Someone is at fault for some of our poor results in FA. Someone is at fault for dragging negotiations on far to long.

Do you believe that RG has/had carte blanche to spend money on FA's. I guess it is possible but not likely IMHO. Is it possible RG only needs the okay from Michael, more likely but I would bet against it. Does Bill Sr stay involved in the running of his franchise? Do most owners need to approve money spent? I don't think these are unreasonable questions and or assumptions on my part.

 

[joeshmo]

Do you believe that RG has/had carte blanche to spend money on FA's.

Not a single GM in the league does. Look how many guys are pissed off at the Patriots or the Jets for not getting their money. Which is funny because players whining about money usually occur more with the successful teams then then crappy ones.

Do most owners need to approve money spent?

Every single owner in the NFL does. Its their business of course they are signing off on their biggest expenditures.

 

[Cardiac]

Not a single GM in the league does. Look how many guys are pissed off at the Patriots or the Jets for not getting their money. Which is funny because players whining about money usually occur more with the successful teams then then crappy ones.



Every single owner in the NFL does. Its their business of course they are signing off on their biggest expenditures.

So is it not possible the hold up is Bill Sr and not RG?

I feel like a defense attorney.

Thanks for all the info Joe.

 

[Hollywood]

As someone else posted you don't think that Kraft or Polian would treat their QB's that way, do you?

Here is what I think. RG and Whiz explain to Michael what it will take to re-sign KW. This info has to be rolled up to Bill Sr.. Since he has no clue he balks and RG is forced to low ball KW. This sent in motion the trip to Sanfran etc. It all worked out for us but why the extra drama?

When the situation calls for it yes, I think they do. The bottom line is how much a team thinks a player is worth. And its subjective.
It is easy for people (fans) to look at a situation after the fact and say, "Well, that didn't work. You should have done it this way." Especially when you don't have all the facts. Which you don't. None of us do. All we can do is look from the outside and make guess what the inside workings were. I don't know about you but I don't have any psycic powers so I try to stick to only judging FO decisions on how I felt when those decisions were made. At the time I felt good about the Warner negotiations. At the time I felt Dansby and Rolle were signed for more than they were worth. If I change my mind later because Warner signed with the 49ers or Dansby and Rolle had career years then so be it......but I cannot fault the FO for making the wrong decisions when I approved of them when they were made...anything else would be hypocritiacl.

 

[Cardiac]

When the situation calls for it yes, I think they do. The bottom line is how much a team thinks a player is worth. And its subjective.
It is easy for people (fans) to look at a situation after the fact and say, "Well, that didn't work. You should have done it this way." Especially when you don't have all the facts. Which you don't. None of us do. All we can do is look from the outside and make guess what the inside workings were. I don't know about you but I don't have any psycic powers so I try to stick to only judging FO decisions on how I felt when those decisions were made. At the time I felt good about the Warner negotiations. At the time I felt Dansby and Rolle were signed for more than they were worth. If I change my mind later because Warner signed with the 49ers or Dansby and Rolle had career years then so be it......but I cannot fault the FO for making the wrong decisions when I approved of them when they were made...anything else would be hypocritiacl.

I thought KW could be re-signed for about 6 or 7 mil per year. I was vastly mistaken. I am not however a GM in the NFL. Look at what Manning and Brees and Brady etc are making and that will give you an idea what a top notch QB demands salary wise.

Name the last HOF top notch QB that didn't get re-signed by their team without having to go through what KW did. Can't think of one, well neither can anyone else. This isn't rocket science, what a top notch QB earns in the NFL is not something that requires psychic powers.

 

[40yearfan]

Joe, I know you are the man with contracts and the salary cap so maybe you can clear some stuff up for me. It was my understanding that with Fitz's and ML's contracts there was a different and better way to structure the escalators. Maybe Buckybird can supply the article that I'm referring to.

If you want to talk facts about ownership then we can have that discussion.

I will stand behind 60+ years of ineptitude from Bill Sr and concede the improvements since Michael as arrived.

Don't know why it is okay to bash RG but Bill Sr is off limits.

Please answer me this, do you truly believe if Michael hand't come on board we would have experienced the SB and 2 consecutive NFCW championships?

Because Mr. B promised us a good football team if he ever got a stadium. He got his stadium and we got a good football team. This franchise is one of the original NFL teams and Mr. B is one of the most admired owners among the owners themselves.

And what you call ineptitude, I call surviving and good business management. Before he had the revenue streams, he had to make decisions based on money considerations because of the lack of cash flow. It isn't popular with the fans, but when it means the difference between being solvent and going broke, you have to choose the former. His one flaw if you want to call it that, was his loyalty to his employees. For many years, his scouting/drafting was done by total incompetents. That compounded the problem.

But then along came Michael Bidwill and all that changed. He got the stadium proposition passed, increased the cash flow, hired NFL level personnel and turned this thing into a real NFL franchise. Please remember that he couldn't have done that if Mr. B hadn't turned the purse strings over to him. I'm sure that was hard to do after doing that with Buddy Ryan, but at least this time it worked out well and Mr. B is no longer worried about how he will make his next payroll.

 

[Cardiac]

Because Mr. B promised us a good football team if he ever got a stadium. He got his stadium and we got a good football team. This franchise is one of the original NFL teams and Mr. B is one of the most admired owners among the owners themselves.

And what you call ineptitude, I call surviving and good business management. Before he had the revenue streams, he had to make decisions based on money considerations because of the lack of cash flow. It isn't popular with the fans, but when it means the difference between being solvent and going broke, you have to choose the former. His one flaw if you want to call it that, was his loyalty to his employees. For many years, his scouting/drafting was done by total incompetents. That compounded the problem.

But then along came Michael Bidwill and all that changed. He got the stadium proposition passed, increased the cash flow, hired NFL level personnel and turned this thing into a real NFL franchise. Please remember that he couldn't have done that if Mr. B hadn't turned the purse strings over to him. I'm sure that was hard to do after doing that with Buddy Ryan, but at least this time it worked out well and Mr. B is no longer worried about how he will make his next payroll.

I really don't know how to respond to this but I'll give it a try.

If an NFL owner can't make money then they are the dumbest human being on the face of the earth.

Promising a good football team if we ever get a new stadium. Isn't that why he moved the Cards to Az? What kind of idiot moves his team without an ironclad agreement in place?

Michael is the cavalry that rode to the rescue and bailed out dimwitted Bill Sr.

I doubt many NFL owners is admired by anyone, let alone true bussines men like other NFL owners. This may be the craziest thought ever posted on any website in the history of the internet.

Maybe some owners respect Bill Sr for his standing as one of the most tenured owners but admire him; LMFAO.

Besides his charitable contributions and handing most of the business decisions over to Michael what has Dollar Bill really accomplished in the NFL.

I love your positive attitude and obvious die hard Cards fandomn. Thinking that Dollar Bill is more than a wasted wet dream is dellusional, IMHO.

 

[40yearfan]

I really don't know how to respond to this but I'll give it a try.

If an NFL owner can't make money then they are the dumbest human being on the face of the earth.

Promising a good football team if we ever get a new stadium. Isn't that why he moved the Cards to Az? What kind of idiot moves his team without an ironclad agreement in place?

Michael is the cavalry that rode to the rescue and bailed out dimwitted Bill Sr.

I doubt many NFL owners is admired by anyone, let alone true bussines men like other NFL owners. This may be the craziest thought ever posted on any website in the history of the internet.

Maybe some owners respect Bill Sr for his standing as one of the most tenured owners but admire him; LMFAO.

Besides his charitable contributions and handing most of the business decisions over to Michael what has Dollar Bill really accomplished in the NFL.

I love your positive attitude and obvious die hard Cards fandomn. Thinking that Dollar Bill is more than a wasted wet dream is dellusional, IMHO.

You are entitled to your opinion. Your lack of respect for someone you don't even know and have probably never met says something about your character however.

 

[O]

If it wasn't for William Bidwill the Football Cardinals would not be here now and the Arizona Caedinals would not exist and none of us would be discussing this idiotic topic!

 

[AZ Native]

Turn the page...

 

[Cardiac]

You are entitled to your opinion. Your lack of respect for someone you don't even know and have probably never met says something about your character however.

I just need to step away from the topic of Bill Sr. I go crazy.

 

[mrbyte]

The only thing this thread is of any use for is padding your post count