Biggest Draft Disappointments

Chopper0080

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I'm so confused by this. Why? We just drafted a 3rd round WR last year who played well. Is it just shiny new toy syndrome? He was 8th in YPG among rookie receivers, and that's with a season of mostly Josh Dobbs, while being 14th in targets.
Because your WR room is 5-6 players deep, your best chance to compete is via offense, and your 2nd best WR on the roster is a guy who struggled to produce last year and has a long injury history. Your 3rd best WR is a guy who is small and has never been more than a depth piece. After that you have several guys who probably aren't any different than the FAs on the market.
 

kerouac9

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Why do you think Greg Dortch is so bad?
Mr traits and measurables: what does Dortch do well? He’s struggled to find playing time on two 4-win football teams. He’s WR Marcel Shipp; great story and alternative to a more talented player that you don’t like, but he probably doesn’t make the roster of a playoff team.
 
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Krangodnzr

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Mr traits and measurables: what does Dortch do well?
He gets open in the slot.
He’s struggled to find playing time one two 4-win football teams.
He's the guy who you look to replace, but he's reasonably productive when he gets the chance.

Most NFL receivers aren't even capable of 52 balls on 64 targets.

Contrast him with Rondale Moore who has a similar stature but for some reason Murray doesn't throw to him.
He’s WR Marcel Shipp; great story and alternative to a more talented player that you don’t like, but he probably doesn’t make the roster of a playoff team.
And he probably doesn't make the roster on the next Cardinals playoff team, but for now he's a better option than a large chunk of NFL receivers who have better measureables.

Measureables are great and all, but some guys can play despite poor measureables.
 

Krangodnzr

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What makes you think he's a no-doubt #3? And why don't we need competition and depth at the position?
Because you can't fix every problem in one off-season.

Dortch is better at his position than Starling Thomas is at his. Dortch is better at his position than <unsigned blocking TE>. Dortch is a decent NFL player. Not good, but not an embarrassment either.
 

Solar7

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Because your WR room is 5-6 players deep, your best chance to compete is via offense, and your 2nd best WR on the roster is a guy who struggled to produce last year and has a long injury history. Your 3rd best WR is a guy who is small and has never been more than a depth piece. After that you have several guys who probably aren't any different than the FAs on the market.
Except... he didn't really struggle. He played pretty well for a 3rd round rookie.

I guess, answer me this... would you rather give up on Wilson? Like, wish we didn't draft him? I guess I can see the argument if you really don't think the guy has what it takes or will ever develop past what we saw, whether that's on account of injury or just skill. I've been there with players.
 

Krangodnzr

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Because your WR room is 5-6 players deep, your best chance to compete is via offense, and your 2nd best WR on the roster is a guy who struggled to produce last year and has a long injury history. Your 3rd best WR is a guy who is small and has never been more than a depth piece. After that you have several guys who probably aren't any different than the FAs on the market.
Is this as big an issue when you mostly have two tight ends on the field? It appears this is what the Cardinals want to do.
 

Solar7

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Is this as big an issue when you mostly have two tight ends on the field? It appears this is what the Cardinals want to do.
Exactly. This is why WR in the 3rd screams luxury pick to me. I wouldn't be screaming about it if it happened, but how many opportunities would they really get on the field? Especially when it would come at the sacrifice of blocking, secondary help, or a top RB to replace our guy that's almost 30?
 

Chopper0080

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Except... he didn't really struggle. He played pretty well for a 3rd round rookie.

I guess, answer me this... would you rather give up on Wilson? Like, wish we didn't draft him? I guess I can see the argument if you really don't think the guy has what it takes or will ever develop past what we saw, whether that's on account of injury or just skill. I've been there with players.
You are proposing a false choice. Drafting another WR in the 3rd round doesn't have to take away from Wilson. Even with the Cardinals usage of multiple TEs, they still run 3 WR sets 40%+ of the time. If Wilson is great, he will ensure any WRs brought in don't supplant him. and if the new WR is better, the Cardinals are better off. That is how competition works. 12 38 565 and 3 shouldn't guarantee a player anything in this league.
 

Krangodnzr

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Exactly. This is why WR in the 3rd screams luxury pick to me. I wouldn't be screaming about it if it happened, but how many opportunities would they really get on the field? Especially when it would come at the sacrifice of blocking, secondary help, or a top RB to replace our guy that's almost 30?
Where I will differ in your take is that I don't view #3 WR as a luxury pick. It definitely is a need, but I think the Cardinals prioritized other needs ahead of #3 WR.

If I'm Monti, I'm calling Tyler Boyd or Zay Jones up to get them in the building, but I think the team has a higher view of Greg Dortch than most others do.
 

Chopper0080

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Is this as big an issue when you mostly have two tight ends on the field? It appears this is what the Cardinals want to do.
Arizona used 11 personnel 64.5% of snaps in 2023. Browns 68.3% (if you believe Petzing imitates Cle to a degree). That was with Ertz, Swaim, McBride, and Higgins. Not a terrible TE room. Cardinals used 12 and 13 personnel for 29.7% of snaps. Even if that increases, WR 3 is playing more than 40% of snaps.

Basically to say that it is potentially a big issue.
 

Chopper0080

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Exactly. This is why WR in the 3rd screams luxury pick to me. I wouldn't be screaming about it if it happened, but how many opportunities would they really get on the field? Especially when it would come at the sacrifice of blocking, secondary help, or a top RB to replace our guy that's almost 30?
Not a luxury. In 2023 64.5% of our personnel packages used was 11 personnel.
 

kerouac9

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Except... he didn't really struggle. He played pretty well for a 3rd round rookie.

I guess, answer me this... would you rather give up on Wilson? Like, wish we didn't draft him? I guess I can see the argument if you really don't think the guy has what it takes or will ever develop past what we saw, whether that's on account of injury or just skill. I've been there with players.
He struggled to stay healthy. We’re one average Michael Wilson season from Greg Dortch as the #2 WR for this team for 4+ games.

If we’re tanking again or at least indifferent to winning, this matters less. If we want to be the best team possible in 2024 — without mortgaging the future — it’s irresponsible not to have someone who can compete with Greg Dortch.
Is this as big an issue when you mostly have two tight ends on the field? It appears this is what the Cardinals want to do.

We probably won’t mostly have 2TE on the field. So that’s kind of a non-starter.
 

Chopper0080

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He struggled to stay healthy. We’re one average Michael Wilson season from Greg Dortch as the #2 WR for this team for 4+ games.

If we’re tanking again or at least indifferent to winning, this matters less. If we want to be the best team possible in 2024 — without mortgaging the future — it’s irresponsible not to have someone who can compete with Greg Dortch.


We probably won’t mostly have 2TE on the field. So that’s kind of a non-starter.
Yeah...even if we increased our usage of 12 and 13 personnel, the Cardinals probably cap at 35% which was the most in 2023 by a competent offense.
 

kerouac9

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I like Dortch, but I would have drafted a competitive receiver.

I don't know why this is a controversial opinion.

Exactly. This is why WR in the 3rd screams luxury pick to me. I wouldn't be screaming about it if it happened, but how many opportunities would they really get on the field? Especially when it would come at the sacrifice of blocking, secondary help, or a top RB to replace our guy that's almost 30?

Like a ton? Top RB is getting a little ahead of ourselves, isn't it?
 

Solar7

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Where I will differ in your take is that I don't view #3 WR as a luxury pick. It definitely is a need, but I think the Cardinals prioritized other needs ahead of #3 WR.

If I'm Monti, I'm calling Tyler Boyd or Zay Jones up to get them in the building, but I think the team has a higher view of Greg Dortch than most others do.
Well, it's work I don't really feel like doing at the moment, but I do wonder how many teams' top 3 receivers are all 1st-3rd round draft picks (especially drafted within a two year span). That's a bit of why I'm calling it a luxury. I understand we could improve on Dortch, and I wouldn't have a problem with bringing one of those guys in to exclusively play the slot to replace him.

He struggled to stay healthy. We’re one average Michael Wilson season from Greg Dortch as the #2 WR for this team for 4+ games.

If we’re tanking again or at least indifferent to winning, this matters less. If we want to be the best team possible in 2024 — without mortgaging the future — it’s irresponsible not to have someone who can compete with Greg Dortch.


We probably won’t mostly have 2TE on the field. So that’s kind of a non-starter.
While I get your concept here, Dortch probably doesn't really take over the X/Y role if/when MW misses time, that's probably Moore or Pascal.

And @Chopper0080 to address the CB thing, I find us in a "fling **** at the wall and see what sticks" position. It's less about depth for me there based on opponents' tendencies than just adding bodies until someone is good at stopping anyone at all.
 

Solar7

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I don't know why this is a controversial opinion.



Like a ton? Top RB is getting a little ahead of ourselves, isn't it?
I mean, he was the second RB taken in the draft, and by some accounts, the best. I'm not trying to anoint him just yet, but I'd rather have the 2nd RB off the board than the 13th or worse WR. And I don't mean to make that purely about position and the amount taken, but I like Benson more than I like any of the receivers that went in round 3, in a vacuum.
 

SoonerLou

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Trade up for Dallas Turner.

Despite what others say I think Robinson would have been there at 35.

Use 4th round pick on Javon Baker WR.

So rough guess.

Marvin
Turner
Robinson or Newton
Andru Phillips
Benson OR Adams
Javon Baker top of the 4th.
Still figure out how to move around to get Christian Jones. Cant remember if that was from the Tip pick trade down.
 
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Krangodnzr

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@Chopper0080 I don't disagree that the Cardinals will likely need a better #3 WR.

But I think in the short run, Dortch can work as a #3 in the short run. He's going to be a possession slot guy, and little else. I'm just excited that the team isn't going to try and foisr up Moore as viable NFL player, because Dortch is clearly better.

Next off season some team's fans are going to be excited about signing Greg Dortch.

And I think if we are looking for a real solution to the #3 WR, none of the fourth round guys are going to be actual NFL players. The chances are pretty slim, not that much greater than Palmer.
 

kerouac9

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While I get your concept here, Dortch probably doesn't really take over the X/Y role if/when MW misses time, that's probably Moore or Pascal.

Oh. Well that definitely will give us a better chance to win. I'll sleep well.

My draft sources tell me that your DVOA is like a four or something.

Confirmed.

Dortch can work as a #3 in the short run

I see what you did there. I don't know whether to applaud or report this.
 

Krangodnzr

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Well, it's work I don't really feel like doing at the moment, but I do wonder how many teams' top 3 receivers are all 1st-3rd round draft picks (especially drafted within a two year span). That's a bit of why I'm calling it a luxury. I understand we could improve on Dortch, and I wouldn't have a problem with bringing one of those guys in to exclusively play the slot to replace him.
I get it, not wanting to dig deep and I agree that most of the league's third receivers are probably close to Dortch capabilities.

I think the feeling is more caused by the "iffy-ness" of Michael Wilson. I like Wilson and think he can be an NFL receiver, but he does have a long track record of injuries.
While I get your concept here, Dortch probably doesn't really take over the X/Y role if/when MW misses time, that's probably Moore or Pascal.
You mean X (Split End) or Z (Flanker) role. Y is the TE and usually refers to an inline TE, though it can also be used for the slot receiver.

Marvin is likely to be the X with Wilson at the Z role, and with Dortch in the slot and McBride at TE.
And @Chopper0080 to address the CB thing, I find us in a "fling **** at the wall and see what sticks" position. It's less about depth for me there based on opponents' tendencies than just adding bodies until someone is good at stopping anyone at all.
Definitely agree that there was a little bit of a throw some draft capital at a position and hope it fixes it. The Lions did the same thing this year trading for Davis and then using two fairly high picks on CB.
 

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