Bledsoe's turnovers

[Mainstreet]

Interesting analysis but it ignores the elephant in the room. Goran was at his best when he was the primary ball handler AND Frye and Keef were at the 4 and 5. When Keef and Plumlee were out there instead, Goran's efficiency dropped considerably with and without Eric.

IIRC, last year, Goran was more effective when Eric was on the bench but Eric was at his best when Goran played next to him. But the Suns were far better when both players played than when either player sat out and for me, that's the most important stat of all of them. But our two headed monster was always at it's best when we had Frye out there for spacing.

Losing Frye might not have been a mistake for this front office but thinking that we could plug just anyone into that role was. In hindsight we'd have been better off if we'd paid Channing, worked a sign and trade for Bledsoe and let Goran run the offense 24 minutes a game and play off the ball with IT for another 12 or so. Plenty of minutes to give both of those guys their chance to run the team and then we could have used the Bledsoe assets to acquire a couple more big men. It wouldn't have put us any closer to our end goal but it would have made this season more bearable and our short term future would have looked far better. It's anyone's guess what it would have meant for the long run, we probably won't know until we cash in the Miami draft chips.

Steve

As you know I was pushing for the Suns to sign Spencer Hawes. I think he would have fit as far as spreading the floor.

 

[SirStefan32]

Interesting analysis but it ignores the elephant in the room. Goran was at his best when he was the primary ball handler AND Frye and Keef were at the 4 and 5. When Keef and Plumlee were out there instead, Goran's efficiency dropped considerably with and without Eric.

IIRC, last year, Goran was more effective when Eric was on the bench but Eric was at his best when Goran played next to him. But the Suns were far better when both players played than when either player sat out and for me, that's the most important stat of all of them. But our two headed monster was always at it's best when we had Frye out there for spacing.

Losing Frye might not have been a mistake for this front office but thinking that we could plug just anyone into that role was. In hindsight we'd have been better off if we'd paid Channing, worked a sign and trade for Bledsoe and let Goran run the offense 24 minutes a game and play off the ball with IT for another 12 or so. Plenty of minutes to give both of those guys their chance to run the team and then we could have used the Bledsoe assets to acquire a couple more big men. It wouldn't have put us any closer to our end goal but it would have made this season more bearable and our short term future would have looked far better. It's anyone's guess what it would have meant for the long run, we probably won't know until we cash in the Miami draft chips.

Steve

Goran's production as the lone PG was virtually unchanged this year without Frye. Of course, having a pick and pop partner who can spread the floor is helpful, but Dragic is a fine player with or without Frye. Lack of Frye was not Goran's problem. Bledsoe and IT were Goran's problems.

I do agree with your statement about Goran being better without Bledsoe and Bledsoe being better with Goran. I am surprised you are willing to admit that.

I hope I am wrong, but we definitely drew the short end of the stick from this whole situation.

 

[Errntknght]

Interesting analysis but it ignores the elephant in the room. Goran was at his best when he was the primary ball handler AND Frye and Keef were at the 4 and 5. When Keef and Plumlee were out there instead, Goran's efficiency dropped considerably with and without Eric.

IIRC, last year, Goran was more effective when Eric was on the bench but Eric was at his best when Goran played next to him. But the Suns were far better when both players played than when either player sat out and for me, that's the most important stat of all of them. But our two headed monster was always at it's best when we had Frye out there for spacing.

Steve

One could make a case that you are ignoring the elephant in the room - which is that while Frye had a very good year, he has a poor history in the playoffs and fading down the stretch as well. His age and health were further reasons not to keep him as part of our core. Tolliver was certainly a poor choice but we needed to shed Channing. The only way to succeed in this league is to be constantly evaluating the players in terms of how they do in the playoffs.

 

[AzStevenCal]

One could make a case that you are ignoring the elephant in the room - which is that while Frye had a very good year, he has a poor history in the playoffs and fading down the stretch as well. His age and health were further reasons not to keep him as part of our core. Tolliver was certainly a poor choice but we needed to shed Channing. The only way to succeed in this league is to be constantly evaluating the players in terms of how they do in the playoffs.

I think we'd be better off if we'd done it differently but that doesn't mean I think signing Frye was the best way to go. It was just better than what we did. I agree that Channing isn't (or wouldn't be) part of our core but the same is really true of Goran. We could have kept those two and let the young players develop, including the young talent we'd get as a result of the Bledsoe trade. About the time they blossomed and we moved into the contender circle, Frye and Dragic would be at or near the end of their careers.

I think signing Bledsoe, letting Frye walk and then moving Goran before the season would have been a better approach too. We'd probably be a 30 to 35 win team but we'd have a better draft pick coming as a result and Goran would likely have brought us a better return if we hadn't been up against the wall when we made the deal. My point wasn't that we needed Channing, it's that we needed Channing with the roster we had in place. Without him, our poor spacing and our lack of leadership have left us in disarray. I believe we'll recover but 2 of our key assets are picks several years down the road. It might be a rocky ride for awhile.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

This is getting worse and worse. You can tell by his demeanor that Bledsoe doesn't give a crap about turnovers bevause what are the Suns gonna do? Bench him? In favor of who? Exactly. Bledsoe knows he has all the leverage and is using to pick the times when he wants to play hard and the times when he wants to be lazy.

 

[Phrazbit]

This is getting worse and worse. You can tell by his demeanor that Bledsoe doesn't give a crap about turnovers bevause what are the Suns gonna do? Bench him? In favor of who? Exactly. Bledsoe knows he has all the leverage and is using to pick the times when he wants to play hard and the times when he wants to be lazy.

... I don't even think his most ardent detractors think he is "lazy". I've heard 'not a PG', 'reckless', 'out of control', 'stupid', and a few others, but to come away with "lazy" can only mean you continue to look at box scores and not watch games.

Bledsoe's effort is unquestioned, the guy is flying all over the court, he probably makes more hustle plays than anyone on the team, but his decision making continues to be suspect.

 

[JS22]

This is getting worse and worse. You can tell by his demeanor that Bledsoe doesn't give a crap about turnovers bevause what are the Suns gonna do? Bench him? In favor of who? Exactly. Bledsoe knows he has all the leverage and is using to pick the times when he wants to play hard and the times when he wants to be lazy.

Trade him in the offseason for a big. How many 7 TO nights is that now?

 

[82CardsGrad]

... I don't even think his most ardent detractors think he is "lazy". I've heard 'not a PG', 'reckless', 'out of control', 'stupid', and a few others, but to come away with "lazy" can only mean you continue to look at box scores and not watch games.

Bledsoe's effort is unquestioned, the guy is flying all over the court, he probably makes more hustle plays than anyone on the team, but his decision making continues to be suspect.

I'm one of those detractors and I would never call Bledsoe lazy. He is simply just not nearly as good as he thinks he is and as the Suns hoped he'd be. He's an incredibly strong and athletic tweener who couldn't ever be an elite SG or PG.
He's a below average shooter and a barely average passer who's strongest asset is his willingness and ability to drive to the rim.
The Suns goofed with Bledsoe and I've been saying this since the summer when Bledsoe was holding out for a Max contract.
Now we are left to hope that somehow Knight can emerge in a way that would overshadow all of Bledsoe's shortcomings, and that Len is one day able to stay healthy and that one day we grab a legit PF.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm one of those detractors and I would never call Bledsoe lazy. He is simply just not nearly as good as he thinks he is and as the Suns hoped he'd be. He's an incredibly strong and athletic tweener who couldn't ever be an elite SG or PG.
He's a below average shooter and a barely average passer who's strongest asset is his willingness and ability to drive to the rim.
The Suns goofed with Bledsoe and I've been saying this since the summer when Bledsoe was holding out for a Max contract.
Now we are left to hope that somehow Knight can emerge in a way that would overshadow all of Bledsoe's shortcomings, and that Len is one day able to stay healthy and that one day we grab a legit PF.

I still disagree. The turnovers are keeping Bledsoe from being a truly elite player but he is still a good player. He's the primary reason that this ragtag collection of players is competitive most nights. Take him away and this might be the worst team in the NBA even with Knight and right now, we don't have Knight. All too often we don't have Len either.

Steve

 

[82CardsGrad]

I still disagree. The turnovers are keeping Bledsoe from being a truly elite player but he is still a good player. He's the primary reason that this ragtag collection of players is competitive most nights. Take him away and this might be the worst team in the NBA even with Knight and right now, we don't have Knight. All too often we don't have Len either.

Steve

Goofed as in overpaying for him. I just don't see his production as being anything close to equaling his contract...
And I still think you are giving him too much credit for our wins. I think if we didn't have Bledsoe, Dragic and IT would've secured as many wins as we have at present...

 

[AzStevenCal]

Goofed as in overpaying for him. I just don't see his production as being anything close to equaling his contract...
And I still think you are giving him too much credit for our wins. I think if we didn't have Bledsoe, Dragic and IT would've secured as many wins as we have at present...

Look at our roster and compare it to the T Wolves or the Kings or the Lakers or the Magic or the Pistons and tell me what's so much better about our team?

Steve

 

[82CardsGrad]

Look at our roster and compare it to the T Wolves or the Kings or the Lakers or the Magic or the Pistons and tell me what's so much better about our team?



Steve

Not much at all... I think Len stands out. I think if TJ were getting more mins he would stand out. I think Knight was about to step up...
But not sure what that has to do with my comment about Dragic and IT producing the same number of wins as Bledsoe?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Not much at all... I think Len stands out. I think if TJ were getting more mins he would stand out. I think Knight was about to step up...
But not sure what that has to do with my comment about Dragic and IT producing the same number of wins as Bledsoe?

I had no idea how to respond to that statement. It's like "water is wet" as far as I'm concerned. I would rather have this current roster with Dragic AND IT then just Eric. I think Eric is the best of the 3 but it's not by much.

And Len does stand out but unfortunately he's just not playing that much. He and Knight would turn us into a decent team, without them though this is far from a good team. Bledsoe and Keef are pretty much all that keeps us from being by far the worst team in the NBA. It's interesting that they are probably the two most maligned players on the roster.

Steve

 

[82CardsGrad]

I had no idea how to respond to that statement. It's like "water is wet" as far as I'm concerned. I would rather have this current roster with Dragic AND IT then just Eric. I think Eric is the best of the 3 but it's not by much.

And Len does stand out but unfortunately he's just not playing that much. He and Knight would turn us into a decent team, without them though this is far from a good team. Bledsoe and Keef are pretty much all that keeps us from being by far the worst team in the NBA. It's interesting that they are probably the two most maligned players on the roster.

Steve

Being the best player(s) on a team doesn't always equal good results. And in this case, Kief and Bledsoe are the "best" of a rag-tag bunch, so what does that really say?
This may be a gross exaggeration... but, on top tier teams that are true, legit championship contenders (Hawks, Cavs, OKC, Clippers, Warriors, Grizzlies, Blazers, Rockets and Spurs), I think both Kief and Bledsoe would struggle to be starters... and yet they are the "best" on this team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Being the best player(s) on a team doesn't always equal good results. And in this case, Kief and Bledsoe are the "best" of a rag-tag bunch, so what does that really say?
This may be a gross exaggeration... but, on top tier teams that are true, legit championship contenders (Hawks, Cavs, OKC, Clippers, Warriors, Grizzlies, Blazers, Rockets and Spurs), I think both Kief and Bledsoe would struggle to be starters... and yet they are the "best" on this team.

It seems to me that you're saying they aren't any good because they are just the best of a bad group of players and your proof that they aren't any good is that they can't turn a bad group of players into winners.


And I think the Warriors are the only team you listed that wouldn't start Eric but like you, I'm just guessing.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

This may be a gross exaggeration... but, on top tier teams that are true, legit championship contenders (Hawks, Cavs, OKC, Clippers, Warriors, Grizzlies, Blazers, Rockets and Spurs), I think both Kief and Bledsoe would struggle to be starters.

I don't think that's an exaggeration at all. Most of those teams have better starting PGs than Bledsoe, and better starting PFs than Morris. Not all of them are better at both positions, but most are.

That's just one more illustration of how far the Suns are from being relevant. The talent gap between a 49-win team and a 56-win one is much larger than between 42 and 49. The Suns maybe aren't that far away from 49, but they're miles away from 56.

 

[82CardsGrad]

It seems to me that you're saying they aren't any good because they are just the best of a bad group of players and your proof that they aren't any good is that they can't turn a bad group of players into winners.





And I think the Warriors are the only team you listed that wouldn't start Eric but like you, I'm just guessing.



Steve

Not at all.. I'm judging Bledsoe and Kief strictly on their respective play, not wins and losses...
But to be fair, I would love to see Bledsoe play with a legit SG and PF... That would be the true test as far as I'm concerned... Kief? He is what he is, no matter who he is playing with... And the same just might be true about Bledsoe...

 

[Errntknght]

On a contender I think Bledsoe comes off the bench as a defensive stopper for the most part but also to be a disruptive force and an energy booster or when the team needs someone to relentlessly attack the rim. What he doesn't do well is orchestrate an offense and he is a rather sloppy passer - though he might do better if the coach called many of the plays so that he could anticipate the passes he was going to be called upon to make. (Hornacek has stated that he doesn't want to call plays because he wants as many early attacks as possible - before the defense is entirely set.)

 

[95pro]

On a contender I think Bledsoe comes off the bench as a defensive stopper for the most part but also to be a disruptive force and an energy booster or when the team needs someone to relentlessly attack the rim. What he doesn't do well is orchestrate an offense and he is a rather sloppy passer - though he might do better if the coach called many of the plays so that he could anticipate the passes he was going to be called upon to make. (Hornacek has stated that he doesn't want to call plays because he wants as many early attacks as possible - before the defense is entirely set.)

So JC doesn't coach offense or defense. What do they coach?

 

[Mainstreet]

On a contender I think Bledsoe comes off the bench as a defensive stopper for the most part but also to be a disruptive force and an energy booster or when the team needs someone to relentlessly attack the rim. What he doesn't do well is orchestrate an offense and he is a rather sloppy passer - though he might do better if the coach called many of the plays so that he could anticipate the passes he was going to be called upon to make. (Hornacek has stated that he doesn't want to call plays because he wants as many early attacks as possible - before the defense is entirely set.)

The thing is, the Suns do not run at every opportunity and their offense is not made for a half court game. I wish the Suns offense would run a passing game even if it meant a new coach and some roster changes.

 

[sunsfan88]

If the Bucks are still interested in Bledsoe, I would look into trading him for SG Khris Middleton in a sign and trade.

 

[Errntknght]

The thing is, the Suns do not run at every opportunity and their offense is not made for a half court game. I wish the Suns offense would run a passing game even if it meant a new coach and some roster changes.

I'm wondering what you mean by a passing game... the triangle, Princeton and other varieties of motion offense involve a lot of passing and, intentionally, little dribbling in the front court. In the case of the triangle and Princeton, at least, almost no dribble penetration is used. I'm guessing that isn't what you mean. I've heard both the Spurs and Hawks described as having a lot of movement and passing in their offenses - I suspect thats what you're referring to but I don't have a good conception of those offenses.

For sure, if we go to some kind of motion offense we will need a new coach - the Suns have tried that three times (Frank Johnson, Danny Ainge and Cotton) with disastrous failures all around. FJ was a dunce and a failure anyway you slice it, but the other two were decent coaches and couldn't pull it off.

I'm inclined to think we'll need a new coach to get much change in the offense - Jeff seems locked into his scheme whilst forgetting that in both of the model lineups he says he is basing it on had true point guards - and a very good spot up shooter in himself. Moreover, there was no feuding over who was going to take the lead role.