Bob Young Article on the suns and the Q trade

sunsfn

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For you out of towners, Bob Young used to cover the suns. Coro does that now, but Young has a column called The Heat Index. He talks about sports in general. Here is his column for today.
I "somewhat" agree with some of this with the suns making three mistakes and now having to undo them.
1) Trading the #7 pick before they should have.
2) Not signing JJ when they should have.
3) Signing Q when they should not have.

I do think that getting Thomas is an excellent trade, but we do have to give away another pick it seems.
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New plan in a New York minute

Bob Young
The Heat Index
Jun. 24, 2005 12:00 AM

So long, Q. We hardly knew you.

We never really got to see that post-up game you're supposed to have in your arsenal.

We never really found out why you do that two-fisted head bump thing, although we're starting to believe the alien-antennae story, what with the way you disappeared during the playoffs like My Favorite Martian. advertisement


We never even got to hear your fiancée Brandy belt out the Star-Spangled Banner.

But, hey, don't feel bad. That's how it works with the Suns.

They tell us they've got a "core" they're going to build around.

They tell us that they've got a plan.

And then they tear it up every couple of years, whether it's working for 62 victories, as it did this season, or failing miserably, as it did the previous season when Stephon Marbury preceded you to the Knickerbockers and the Suns won 29 games.

If this deal goes through, sending you to New York for Kurt Thomas, it's not a bad basketball trade, really.

Thomas can board it, and the Suns need that. He's tough as nails, and they surely need that. He's also a little crazy. We like that.

And, frankly, you won't be that hard to replace. The Suns can still can play their small-ball style with Jim Jackson and Joe Johnson, or go with a more conventional lineup with Thomas.

But you say the Suns told you this was a business decision, not a basketball decision.

If that's true, the Suns have only themselves to blame for their predicament - although it must be nice to know they can always call on Isiah Thomas to clean up their books.

For all the credit the Phoenix brain trust got for last year's remarkable turnaround - including the Sporting News NBA Executive of the Year award for team President Bryan Colangelo - there were some miscalculations.


• You may recall, Q, that the Suns traded the seventh pick in the draft last summer. It was the first mistake.

One reason for that deal was that the club didn't expect the guy they liked, Arizona's Andre Iguodala, to be available.

Well, it turned out they could have had Iguodala, a talented and athletic guard, who went ninth to Philadelphia. He's a terrific defender and could have fit nicely into the Suns' wide-open style.

He wouldn't have spread the floor with the three-ball like you did, but he also was a lot cheaper.

The other reason for trading the pick was supposed to be saving cap space to steal you from the Clippers.

So the Suns signed you to a six-year contract and Colangelo said: "We've dramatically improved our team. More importantly, we've put our franchise in a better situation."

Sounded like a plan to us.


• However, this Thomas trade, less than one year later, signals that the Suns have decided that was mistake No. 2.

You say that Colangelo told you he needs the money to sign Johnson and Amaré Stoudemire to contract extensions.

Of course, when you signed last summer, the Suns already knew Stoudemire's deal was going to have to be extended and that it would cost them the maximum.


• And they had the opportunity then to get Johnson's signature on a contract extension for $50 million for six years.

Remarkably, rookie owner Robert Sarver wouldn't sign off on the Johnson deal, refusing to budge off of a $45 million offer.

That was mistake No. 3, a real doozy and the kind of cheapskate move one would expect from your previous employer, Donald Sterling of the Los Angeles Clippers.

That decision is going to cost the Suns if they want to retain Johnson. He can field offers this summer from other teams, which will be for a lot more money. The Suns have to match an offer or they'll lose Johnson for nothing in return.

But they knew that was a possibility last summer.

So why are you moving to New York now? Hey, plans change.

We know it wasn't your playoff performance because we were hearing long before the playoffs that you might have to go in the off-season.

It was stuff like, "sometimes Q is about Q" more than the team.

There also were rumors floating around within the organization that some members of the ownership group were put off by your celebrity fiancée, because she didn't sit with the rest of the team wives during games, and wouldn't socialize with some of the muckety-mucks and their spouses.

Whatever the reasons, it looks as if the "core" is changing again.

Maybe the Suns will be better defensively and on the boards with Thomas.

Maybe we'll learn to appreciate his toughness and physical style as much as we appreciated your conscience-of-a-rattlesnake approach to letting the three-point shots fly.

We'll just make sure we don't fall in love with the guy. Chances are, this plan will change, too.

-
 

Joe Mama

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There are a lot of things in this article I don't agree with, and I think it's too negative towards Q and the Phoenix Suns. Everybody and their mom now knows that the Phoenix Suns made a mistake trading away that draft pick. Or did they? If Kurt Thomas is an integral piece who makes them a better team. If he is an important piece in a championship run, how can we consider that a mistake? Without Q we would not get Kurt Thomas. If they hadn't traded that draft pick they would not have ever signed Q.

I always got the feeling that Q was not really part of "the core". Perhaps he was a peripheral member of the core, but I thought that group was Amare Stoudemire, Steve Nash, Shawn Marion, and Joe Johnson. I hardly think this is akin to the Marbury trade where we were all told that he was going to be an important part of the team for a long time. Still, this must come as a shock to Q who was excited to come here. I hope his Nike contract gives him a big bonus for moving to New York.

I still can't fault Sarver for failing to re-sign JJ last summer. He had already shelled out a lot of money. It's easy for people to look back now and say it was a mistake, but JJ had hardly proven he could play consistently and more importantly shoot consistently prior to this season. In hindsight it was a mistake. At least Sarver can't blame anyone but himself for that mistake. I thought it was the right move at the time though.

I think it's entirely possible that although Q seemed to be popular in the clubhouse that there were at least a couple guys who are not fond of his quick trigger. I can imagine this move probably makes JJ feel better about re-signing. It should make Shawn Marion and Amare happier for several reasons. They will get to spend more time at their natural positions, and there should be a few more shots to go around.

Lastly, I don't think this trade signals that it was a mistake to sign Q. The Phoenix Suns had so much room under the salary cap last summer. They knew it was unlikely they would have any space this summer. They signed at the best player available. He helped them win 62 games in the regular season. I'm sure they realized that if they didn't want to keep him they would be able to move him. At least they probably were hoping that would be true. Of course it helps to have an idiot like Isaiah Thomas on speed dial. :)

Joe Mama
 

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I dissagree completely.

First off, they signed Q for the simple reason that they still were not sure what they had in JJ! Yes it ended up costing them more by not signing him a year earlier but that was not a bad move when your not sure what you have.

Props to the Suns for haveing the "stones" to attempt the unconventional lineup they used all year last year. But there is no way in hell they had any idea this team was gunna be a western con finals team.

Now that the potential of the team is realized Moving Q for Kurt is a dynamite move to give this team much needed tuffness, "D", & Rebounding down low. Getting Marion back to SF, & getting alot more shots for more efficient scorers.


Yes trading the #7 pick blew up in their face but who honestly thought the Bulls would turn it around like they did? It was a gamble simply put and it didnt work. Atleast this team isnt scared to gamble somtimes.

In years past the Suns did seem to make too many trades. But the last several trades they have made have been great moves. First creating cap space to add Nash & Q, then snagging Jim Jackson, and now filling alot of our needs by trading our most tradable player, Q for Kurt Thomas.
 

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Joe Mama said:
There are a lot of things in this article I don't agree with, and I think it's too negative towards Q and the Phoenix Suns. Everybody and their mom now knows that the Phoenix Suns made a mistake trading away that draft pick. Or did they? If Kurt Thomas is an integral piece who makes them a better team. If he is an important piece in a championship run, how can we consider that a mistake? Without Q we would not get Kurt Thomas. If they hadn't traded that draft pick they would not have ever signed Q.

I always got the feeling that Q was not really part of "the core". Perhaps he was a peripheral member of the core, but I thought that group was Amare Stoudemire, Steve Nash, Shawn Marion, and Joe Johnson. I hardly think this is akin to the Marbury trade where we were all told that he was going to be an important part of the team for a long time. Still, this must come as a shock to Q who was excited to come here. I hope his Nike contract gives him a big bonus for moving to New York.

I still can't fault Sarver for failing to re-sign JJ last summer. He had already shelled out a lot of money. It's easy for people to look back now and say it was a mistake, but JJ had hardly proven he could play consistently and more importantly shoot consistently prior to this season. In hindsight it was a mistake. At least Sarver can't blame anyone but himself for that mistake. I thought it was the right move at the time though.

I think it's entirely possible that although Q seemed to be popular in the clubhouse that there were at least a couple guys who are not fond of his quick trigger. I can imagine this move probably makes JJ feel better about re-signing. It should make Shawn Marion and Amare happier for several reasons. They will get to spend more time at their natural positions, and there should be a few more shots to go around.

Lastly, I don't think this trade signals that it was a mistake to sign Q. The Phoenix Suns had so much room under the salary cap last summer. They knew it was unlikely they would have any space this summer. They signed at the best player available. He helped them win 62 games in the regular season. I'm sure they realized that if they didn't want to keep him they would be able to move him. At least they probably were hoping that would be true. Of course it helps to have an idiot like Isaiah Thomas on speed dial. :)

Joe Mama
errrr, what he said... :D
 

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BEERZ said:
In years past the Suns did seem to make too many trades. But the last several trades they have made have been great moves. First creating cap space to add Nash & Q, then snagging Jim Jackson, and now filling alot of our needs by trading our most tradable player, Q for Kurt Thomas.
Also the trade to aquire Joe Johnson...
 
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sunsfn

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Here is what I said and why.
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I "somewhat" agree with some of this with the suns making three mistakes and now having to undo them.

1) Trading the #7 pick before they should have.
2) Not signing JJ when they should have.
3) Signing Q when they should not have.
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Number 1 should not have been done period, they should have made the trade with the option of waiting to see who was available. The suns made a mistake here and with the experience of this management they should have certainly known this could happen. It is not like it was a complicated deal involving players and other draft picks.
That is just common NBA team management common sense!

Number 2.......After the suns traded for JJ it did not take long for a basketball expert to see that JJ had the makings of a future all-star. (I could even see that. :)) The proof was toward the end of the year when he took over games and helped the suns win and played like an all-star.
I blame number 2 on Sarver being cheap and not knowing what he was doing and the C's not being able to convince him otherwise.

Number 3 was not a big mistake, it just did not seem to fit what this team needed.
 

Goldfield

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But the signing of Q shows they were not sure what they had in JJ.

Another point of why they hesitated to extend JJ b4 they were sure he would become a consistant player.
 

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sunsfn said:
Number 2.......After the suns traded for JJ it did not take long for a basketball expert to see that JJ had the makings of a future all-star. (I could even see that. :)) The proof was toward the end of the year when he took over games and helped the suns win and played like an all-star.
I blame number 2 on Sarver being cheap and not knowing what he was doing and the C's not being able to convince him otherwise.

You need to wake up! Do you know WHY, do you have any IDEA, why Sarver didn't sign JJ to a contract last year? You say it's being cheap, but after signing Steve Nash to a huge contract and knowing that JJ would be restricted this season, it was a relatively safe financial move. Yes, JJ FINALLY proved that he can be consistent and an integral part of the team, but it took 3 years to do it! We were frustrated with his inconsistency, can you imagine how people would be if we signed him to a huge extension last summer? It'd be pandemonium! They took a 50/50 chance, and it worked out in JJ's favor. Now, it just time to move on, resign him for however much and get to work on 2005-2006.
 

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Prior to last season I called JJ the Human Marshmallow. He was so soft he was spongey. Now I think JJ is as crucial as Marion to the team.

Sarver had every reason to wait a year.
 

Joe Mama

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Chaplin said:
You need to wake up! Do you know WHY, do you have any IDEA, why Sarver didn't sign JJ to a contract last year? You say it's being cheap, but after signing Steve Nash to a huge contract and knowing that JJ would be restricted this season, it was a relatively safe financial move. Yes, JJ FINALLY proved that he can be consistent and an integral part of the team, but it took 3 years to do it! We were frustrated with his inconsistency, can you imagine how people would be if we signed him to a huge extension last summer? It'd be pandemonium! They took a 50/50 chance, and it worked out in JJ's favor. Now, it just time to move on, resign him for however much and get to work on 2005-2006.

Exactly. Obviously if JJ was such a sure thing they would have wrapped him up with the contract extension last year. There were times just last year I would have traded him for about anything because he was so frustratingly inconsistent. After Marbury was traded he had a good month, but he was still inconsistent. He had a tendency to disappear for long stretches.

Joe Mama
 

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The Suns signed Q for several very legit reasons.

They got a quality player at a fair price. Even if he didn't pan out he could be traded for something of value.

They still weren't sure about JJ.

They were rebuilding and they were putting together the best young pieces possible.

They did not know yet how successful they would be this season. They did not have a championship run in the sites for a few years yet. Once it became clear that the time is more now than 2 years from now, they traded younger players for more mature players. The arrival of Jim Jackson made Q very tradeable.

Q understands this and he's OK with the Suns, after all, they rescued him from Clipperland.
 
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sunsfn

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Chaplin said:
You need to wake up! Do you know WHY, do you have any IDEA, why Sarver didn't sign JJ to a contract last year? You say it's being cheap, but after signing Steve Nash to a huge contract and knowing that JJ would be restricted this season, it was a relatively safe financial move. Yes, JJ FINALLY proved that he can be consistent and an integral part of the team, but it took 3 years to do it! We were frustrated with his inconsistency, can you imagine how people would be if we signed him to a huge extension last summer? It'd be pandemonium! They took a 50/50 chance, and it worked out in JJ's favor. Now, it just time to move on, resign him for however much and get to work on 2005-2006.

can you imagine how people would be if we signed him to a huge extension last summer? It'd be pandemonium! :biglaugh:
JJ and his agent were at 50 mil............

You need to wake up..........I know exactly why Sarver did what he did......Sarver is a banker=cheap, (I used to be one) and does not know anything about the NBA. He will be a quick learner.........especially after he has to sign JJ to this contract.

Sarver last year immediately trimmed the suns personal throughout the orginization, and said we are not going to sign more than 12 players etc.

Now maybe the suns personal needed to be trimmed down,?? but not carrying a couple players for the IR is not good basketball business. The suns have always carried about 14 players, and it pays off over the year. Players do get aches and pains and they need the extra players to have good hard team practices.

The extension that they would have signed JJ to was not a huge amount of money, the one they sign him to now will be for a shorter term and much more money............not very smart!

I know all about your reasoning etc. and it has some merit.
But, JJ is a young player that even when he was inconsistent, he could do some things that other players can not and are not able to do.
He always played defense even if his shot was off, and can play the point, pass and get assists.
The coaches knew what they had, they just could not convince Sarver to spend the money.

If any of you think that Sarver has a lot of money, I hope you realize he is in the lower third of rich owners in the NBA. He does not look at the NBA as other owners do.
 

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You know what's crazy, I just found an ESPN Insider from December 15th that named Q as one of the 5 most likely guys to be traded.

Ford's comments were that the Suns never really wanted Q, but they wanted a backup plan in case they traded JJ or Marion. He also stated he was the 4th option in free agency after the Suns missed out on a few guys.

Ford nails it again.
 

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sunsfn said:
can you imagine how people would be if we signed him to a huge extension last summer? It'd be pandemonium! :biglaugh:
JJ and his agent were at 50 mil............

You need to wake up..........I know exactly why Sarver did what he did......Sarver is a banker=cheap, (I used to be one) and does not know anything about the NBA. He will be a quick learner.........especially after he has to sign JJ to this contract.

Sarver last year immediately trimmed the suns personal throughout the orginization, and said we are not going to sign more than 12 players etc.

Now maybe the suns personal needed to be trimmed down,?? but not carrying a couple players for the IR is not good basketball business. The suns have always carried about 14 players, and it pays off over the year. Players do get aches and pains and they need the extra players to have good hard team practices.

The extension that they would have signed JJ to was not a huge amount of money, the one they sign him to now will be for a shorter term and much more money............not very smart!

I know all about your reasoning etc. and it has some merit.
But, JJ is a young player that even when he was inconsistent, he could do some things that other players can not and are not able to do.
He always played defense even if his shot was off, and can play the point, pass and get assists.
The coaches knew what they had, they just could not convince Sarver to spend the money.

If any of you think that Sarver has a lot of money, I hope you realize he is in the lower third of rich owners in the NBA. He does not look at the NBA as other owners do.


There would have been plenty of people that would have been up-in-arms about signing JJ to a 50 million dollar extension last year. Plenty. I'm not sure why you have such a short memory about this. All of a sudden, he was inconsistent, BUT he was worth giving a ton of money for. I give the Suns credit for being cautious in a summer that saw Adonal freaking Foyle get a ton of money.
 

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Chris_Sanders said:
You know what's crazy, I just found an ESPN Insider from December 15th that named Q as one of the 5 most likely guys to be traded.

Ford's comments were that the Suns never really wanted Q, but they wanted a backup plan in case they traded JJ or Marion. He also stated he was the 4th option in free agency after the Suns missed out on a few guys.

Ford nails it again.

Can you post that quote? Thanks!
 
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sunsfn

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Chaplin said:
There would have been plenty of people that would have been up-in-arms about signing JJ to a 50 million dollar extension last year. Plenty. I'm not sure why you have such a short memory about this. All of a sudden, he was inconsistent, BUT he was worth giving a ton of money for. I give the Suns credit for being cautious in a summer that saw Adonal freaking Foyle get a ton of money.

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There would have been plenty of people that would have been up-in-arms about signing JJ to a 50 million dollar extension last year.
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WHO YOU?? Other posters here? who are these people you talk about?

I do not have a short memory.............I have said on this board many times, and to many of my friends who follow the suns but do not post here, that JJ is going to be an all-star some day, and the suns really ripped Boston in that trade.

I have been saying that since I watched him play the first year here. JJ was very young when the suns traded for him, (and still is) but not many players his size can do what he does and he did a lot of them the first year here. It was a matter of time and as young as he was it was going to happen. If you could not see that, that is your problem not mine.
 

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sunsfn said:
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There would have been plenty of people that would have been up-in-arms about signing JJ to a 50 million dollar extension last year.
---------------------------
WHO YOU?? Other posters here? who are these people you talk about?

I do not have a short memory.............I have said on this board many times, and to many of my friends who follow the suns but do not post here, that JJ is going to be an all-star some day, and the suns really ripped Boston in that trade.

I have been saying that since I watched him play the first year here. JJ was very young when the suns traded for him, (and still is) but not many players his size can do what he does and he did a lot of them the first year here. It was a matter of time and as young as he was it was going to happen. If you could not see that, that is your problem not mine.

So lemme get this straight, you like JJ from the start--no problem there. But when we were so frustrated 2 and 3 years ago, you didn't say anything about it because you thought he was an all-star? Come on now, that's hard to believe that it's anything but patting yourself on the back and making yourself out to be some great prognosticator.
 

elindholm

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WHO YOU?? Other posters here? who are these people you talk about?

I also thought it was correct not to extend Johnson last summer. Sometimes it's worth paying more to be sure you're doing the right thing.

I have been saying that since I watched him play the first year here... If you could not see that, that is your problem not mine.

And you're never wrong? It sounds like you could be making a lot more money as an NBA talent scout, if you can peg players for future greatness without ever making a mistake.
 

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I have to admit that I've been a little skeptical of JJ's real value to this team since the Phoenix Suns did so well in the playoffs without him. If they had any depth off the bench once Jimmy Jackson had to step into the starting role they might not have missed a beat without him. The only problem is that Jimmy Jackson is getting old, so we really can't rely on him as a starter for long.

I do think the Phoenix Suns could field a championship contender with Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire, and to a lesser extent Shawn Marion if they were surrounded with good role players. I'm all for re-signing JJ, but I don't necessarily think it's the end of the world if somehow he got away.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say here. :)

I want the Phoenix Suns to sign JJ. I think they should re-sign JJ. I think they will re-sign JJ. I was just surprised how well the team played without him, especially with the black hole his injury left on the bench.

Joe Mama
 

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Joe Mama said:
I have to admit that I've been a little skeptical of JJ's real value to this team since the Phoenix Suns did so well in the playoffs without him. If they had any depth off the bench once Jimmy Jackson had to step into the starting role they might not have missed a beat without him. The only problem is that Jimmy Jackson is getting old, so we really can't rely on him as a starter for long.

Have to disagree here. Joe(Johnson, not you) is the only guy on the team that can really give Nash a break in any sense. He's the only guy Nash can consistently get it to who will dribble it out of the press. Nash really wore out in the Dallas series. You can't expect that he'll do that much to cover for JJ consistently, and as I think we can agree on, Nash looked a little wiped out from it against the Spurs.
 
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sunsfn

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Chaplin said:
So lemme get this straight, you like JJ from the start--no problem there. But when we were so frustrated 2 and 3 years ago, you didn't say anything about it because you thought he was an all-star? Come on now, that's hard to believe that it's anything but patting yourself on the back and making yourself out to be some great prognosticator.

Chaplin, I have been following pro basketball since I lived in Mpls. (not the Lakers, (not that old :) ) the other league that merged with the NBA) and I was living in Phx and listened on the radio the day JC lost the coin flip on Lew Alcinder. I never played the game because of health problems, but it has always been my favorite sport, and in all the years since the suns have been here, I do my own draft and have gone to all the suns draft events until they closed it to the public. (you could go to the old stadium and watch them work out the players they bought in and then go and watch the draft)
(I was there the day the power forward, name?? the one that shot the limo driver, watching and listening to him telling the press he would not sign with the suns because he wanted to play back east) I have many autographs from suns players over the years and talked to many of them at practice. I stuck with the suns through their drug years when they lost many fans and still went to the games. I have not missed more than 2-3 suns games on tv in any years time (subscribe to cable pay tv or what ever to see them) and used to have tickets and go to half the games every year.

I can watch players sometimes!!!! and see the obvious like many others can.
(maybe you can sometimes?)
I saw in JJ a future all-star, who was smooth like Penny Hardaway and for a 6' 8" player could do things others could not do. And no, I was not frustrated with JJ at all. It was a growing process and the suns needed to get rid of hardaway so he could play more.

I am not patting myself on the back, I just have always thought JJ would be a very good player in this league and have stuck with him through his rough times, and if you have read the posts here in the last 3 years (you have) you should have picked up on that.
 

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sunsfn said:
Chaplin, I have been following pro basketball since I lived in Mpls. (not the Lakers, (not that old :) ) the other league that merged with the NBA) and I was living in Phx and listened on the radio the day JC lost the coin flip on Lew Alcinder. I never played the game because of health problems, but it has always been my favorite sport, and in all the years since the suns have been here, I do my own draft and have gone to all the suns draft events until they closed it to the public. (you could go to the old stadium and watch them work out the players they bought in and then go and watch the draft)
(I was there the day the power forward, name?? the one that shot the limo driver, watching and listening to him telling the press he would not sign with the suns because he wanted to play back east) I have many autographs from suns players over the years and talked to many of them at practice. I stuck with the suns through their drug years when they lost many fans and still went to the games. I have not missed more than 2-3 suns games on tv in any years time (subscribe to cable pay tv or what ever to see them) and used to have tickets and go to half the games every year.

I can watch players sometimes!!!! and see the obvious like many others can.
(maybe you can sometimes?)
I saw in JJ a future all-star, who was smooth like Penny Hardaway and for a 6' 8" player could do things others could not do. And no, I was not frustrated with JJ at all. It was a growing process and the suns needed to get rid of hardaway so he could play more.

I am not patting myself on the back, I just have always thought JJ would be a very good player in this league and have stuck with him through his rough times, and if you have read the posts here in the last 3 years (you have) you should have picked up on that.


A) jayson williams

B) penny was not "smooth" - he was explosive and his game and jj's aren't really that similar. penny was a take it to the rack guy. jj is a 3 point shooter and floater guy.
 

Goldfield

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Ouchie-Z-Clown said:
A) jayson williams

B) penny was not "smooth" - he was explosive and his game and jj's aren't really that similar. penny was a take it to the rack guy. jj is a 3 point shooter and floater guy.
Penny is very smooth. But yes he used to be very explosive.
 

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Chris_Sanders said:
You know what's crazy, I just found an ESPN Insider from December 15th that named Q as one of the 5 most likely guys to be traded.

Ford's comments were that the Suns never really wanted Q, but they wanted a backup plan in case they traded JJ or Marion. He also stated he was the 4th option in free agency after the Suns missed out on a few guys.

Ford nails it again.

You nailed it as well, Q was a backup plan or an experiment (I know several people hate that word).

They were hot on the tails of Okur and Turkoglu, thank god those two did not get signed.
 

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