Boivin TT article - a must read

[Joe Mama]

. Thomas is loss Suns can survive

Paola Boivin
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 4, 2006 12:00 AM


It wasn't so much that the Suns needed Tim Thomas as much as they made us believe they needed Tim Thomas. In the NBA, perception packs a powerful punch, and on Saturday, the Suns took a nasty left hook.

The reality is the Suns will enter the 2006-07 season with a team that is talented enough to win an NBA title. They erred in throwing around Thomas' name too much when they dumped their draft picks, because in truth, they knew getting the deal done was no sure thing.

"I could have handled it better," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said Monday. advertisement




D'Antoni's coaching accomplishments during his brief career here earn him a mulligan. As far as his general manager skills, the jury isn't just out, it's sequestered after a bizarre opening week of free agency.

The dominoes started to fall Friday night when the Clippers, reacting to Vladimir Radmanovic's surprise announcement that he was moving to the Lakers, panicked and went strong after Thomas, putting a four-year, $24 million offer on the table.

Thomas' agent contacted the Suns late Friday to allow them to counter because Thomas meant what he said about wanting to return to Phoenix. Suns management had only 30 minutes to decide, though, because that's when the Clippers said they would withdraw their offer to Thomas.

Thomas was willing to take $21 million from the Suns, who had offered approximately three years for $12 million. In the end, the Suns decided that as much as they enjoyed having Thomas on the team, he was more a luxury than a necessity. They felt they could spend the money on greater needs, such as a backup point guard.

This wasn't about Robert Sarver refusing to spend the money, as many believe. The owner is sensitive to public perception after the Joe Johnson fiasco and has no desire to stroll that neighborhood again. It was D'Antoni's call as much as anyone's, and he felt the money Thomas commanded was better spent elsewhere.

Think of it this way: The Suns are set with their top eight players. The holes they fill likely will be for Nos. 9 and 10. Don't look for any splashy signings. And they feel good about their frontcourt with Amaré Stoudemire, Kurt Thomas, Boris Diaw and part-time power forward Shawn Marion.

The news was hard for some fans to swallow because of this resilient team's connection with the community. Don't believe it? When Eddie House walked into the Suns youth basketball camp at Thunderbird High on Monday, the 300-plus started chanting "Eddie! Eddie!" Many of these were 8- and 9-year-olds unfamiliar with House's Arizona State career but knew of a player who averaged 9.8 points and 17.5 minutes per game with the Suns.

Everything suggests Thomas was sincere in his desire to return here. As late as Friday, he told the Herald News of Passaic County, N.J., that he wanted back in Phoenix.

"I just know that the organization is going to win a championship soon, and I'd love to be there for that," he said from his home in Southern California. "The ultimate goal is to try to make as much money as you can, but as a player you always look back and say, 'What did I do? How close have I come to getting that ring?' I've been (to the conference finals) twice, and it's a great feeling. I want to get to that next level, to have a chance to get that ring. Hopefully, I can get there with Phoenix."

Some have criticized Thomas for not being true to his word, but c'mon, $24 million vs. $12 million, four years vs. three? This was a guy who not long ago had a bad reputation in the NBA. You can't blame him for wanting stability.

There aren't any true bad guys in this crazy scenario, just a few who could have handled it better.

 

[devilalum]

TT for $21 million over 4 sounds a lot better than Piatkowski for nothing.

If the SUns didn't already have a championship contender squad we'd ALL be livid.

 

[elindholm]

All right, I have to come out of hiding for this.

Tim Thomas would have been a fine signing at $21 million over four years, or even for the $24 million that the Clippers gave him.

Yes, his attitude is questionable, he doesn't make much effort on the boards, and he's a mediocre defender at best. But that's why he's not worth more than the MLE.

Every option that has been brought up since Thomas left has major problems. They're always injured, or they can't shoot, or they're awful defensively, or they already have one foot out the retirement door. That's another reason Thomas was worth the MLE. Cheaper players, by and large, suck.

The Suns lucked out big time with Raja Bell last summer. He took slightly less than the MLE and turned out to be a very good starting SG. Does anyone think that he would take the MLE now, after what he showed this past season? He'd probably be able to command a starting salary of $7 million from a team with cap space.

The Suns say their top eight are set, huh? I guess that has to include James Jones. I like Jones, but anyone who watched these recent playoffs knows that he would not even have gotten off the bench had Stoudemire and Kurt Thomas been able to contribute. He was simply outclassed. The Suns used him in desperation, and he did what he could, but it wasn't much. Now he's a lock for the top eight? And remember, it's "top eight" only if everyone stays healthy.

Thomas, had he taken $21/4, would have made about $2 million more per year than Jones. Knock Thomas's effort all you like, but he's a huge upgrade over Jones. If the Suns are really that worried about every penny, don't you think they could have packaged Jones with one of their picks to a team with cap space?

I can tell you where we're all going to be a year from now. We'll be lamenting a loss in the second or third round of the playoffs, blaming it on the bad luck of an injury or one key player hitting a slump. Serious contenders don't go into the season saying, "If everything goes exactly perfectly, we have a pretty good chance." They plan for other contingencies.

By this point, it's clear that none of the roster fill-outs are going to be impact players. All of you that have been asking to see what last year's roster could have done, you have your wish -- last year's roster is exactly what they're going to have.

I'm sure this next point will make me very unpopular, but too bad: Marion's contract is killing the Suns. Except for teams with infinite payrolls, a championship rotation is made up of these kinds of players:

1. Stars on big contracts
2. Role players on affordable contracts
3. "Bargain" players who are either youngsters still on their cheap rookie deals, veterans playing for cheap to chase the dream, or diamonds in the rough who step up unexpectedly

Categories (2) and (3) are critical. In (2), the Suns have only Bell and Jones (unless you want to call Kurt Thomas's contract "affordable"). In (3), they have Diaw and Barbosa -- and no one else, since they don't add rookies to the roster anymore. Maybe they hoped that the old "join us for a championship" sell would lure some solid veterans, but that hasn't happened.

So it all comes down to their group (1). The Suns' big three will combine for about $38 million next year. The Heat's big three, by salary (O'Neal, Williams, and Walker) combine for only $36 million -- and they have Wade, still on his rookie deal. For San Antonio (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili), it's also $36 million. Dallas, if you ignore Finley, has Nowitzki, Dampier, and Stackhouse combining for $32 million (and they have infinite money anyway). We can't look at Detroit right now, because we don't know what's going on with them.

So among the likely contenders, the Suns are paying the most for their three biggest contracts. The franchise is financially handicapped, and it's starting to show.

Marion makes more money than any player on those top teams, other than Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan. He makes more than Nowitzki, Elton Brand, or anyone on the Pistons. (He makes more than Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton combined.) Some on this board are fond of saying that the money doesn't matter to us fans. Well, when it has a direct impact on the team's ability to prepare for a championship run, I think it matters.

Imagine if Marion was making a few million dollars per year less, more in line with his status as the third (or fourth) best player on a contending team. The Suns could have rolled the dice with Tim Thomas and not been paralyzed with fear about getting stuck behind his "big" contract. They could have kept one of their first-round picks, just in case they were wrong about how good a player he might become. (It's been known to happen.) They could be more of a player right now with the low-level free agents still looking for homes, instead of settling for a joke like Eric Piatkowski. They could try to bribe a player over from Europe -- think D'Antoni might know of any?

Instead, they're completely stuck. The reason they aren't making any real moves is because they can't afford to. And anyone who thinks they're going to add three rookies next summer is dreaming, because the problem is only going to get worse with the extensions to Diaw and possibly Barbosa.

D'Antoni says he can't imagine the Suns winning a championship without Marion on the roster. That's sweet. Unfortunately, I say the opposite. I can't see them winning a title as long as he's here. He's a great guy, plays hard, and brings a lot to the floor. But he simply makes way too much money to be a third or fourth option. That's becoming clearer by the day, and for those of you who don't see that yet, you might as well start coming up with your other excuses for why the Suns will fail again this year.

 

[devilalum]

All right, I have to come out of hiding for this.

.

I knew you were there the whole time. I saw you peeking around a corner last week.

 

[cly2tw]

I'm sure this next point will make me very unpopular, but too bad: Marion's contract is killing the Suns. ...

...
D'Antoni says he can't imagine the Suns winning a championship without Marion on the roster. That's sweet. Unfortunately, I say the opposite. I can't see them winning a title as long as he's here. He's a great guy, plays hard, and brings a lot to the floor. But he simply makes way too much money to be a third or fourth option. That's becoming clearer by the day, and for those of you who don't see that yet, you might as well start coming up with your other excuses for why the Suns will fail again this year.

This is exactly what I said two years ago. Unless we were the Knicks or Mavs with no concern for luxary tax, we'd not be able to win a championship with Marion on the team. The main reason is the associated lack of depth. And the last two years, we partially lost in the playoffs due to this simple fact. And we were lucky to be able to pick up TT for the run this year.

Welcome back, Eric! And welcome on the trade-Marion bandwagon, again!

PS: I reiterate my proposal. Trade Marion and JJ and our 07 pick for Chandler, Deng, Songalia resigned starting at 3mil, and Thabo. Bulls could then trade JJ and the pick for JR Smith. We'd have enough depth to weather even severe injuries like last year.

 

[devilalum]

This is exactly what I said two years ago. Unless we were the Knicks or Mavs with no concern for luxary tax, we'd not be able to win a championship with Marion on the team. The main reason is the associated lack of depth. And the last two years, we partially lost in the playoffs due to this simple fact. And we were lucky to be able to pick up TT for the run this year.

Welcome back, Eric! And welcome on the trade-Marion bandwagon, again!

PS: I reiterate my proposal. Trade Marion and JJ and our 07 pick for Chandler, Deng, Songalia resigned starting at 3mil, and Thabo. Bulls could then trade JJ and the pick for JR Smith. We'd have enough depth to weather even severe injuries like last year.

Aside from the fact that Marion puts up massive numbers and never misses a game if Amare goes down again we're still cooked.

 

[cly2tw]

Aside from the fact that Marion puts up massive numbers and never misses a game if Amare goes down again we're still cooked.

The system can gets the best out of talented bench players in case a starter is injured. Diaw and LB were the products. Our problem was we didn't have enough talent after them last season and our bench were too short to main the speed vs. the well-prepared opponents without inevitable further injuries and severe weardowns of the starters. That'd change with my proposed trade. We'd have better chance than last year even without Amare.

 

[sly fly]

PHX gets nowhere close to a championship WITHOUT Marion.

Hell, they wouldn't even sniff the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th seed without Marion's accomplishments during the regular season.

Gotta get there first, Eric.

 

[NastyOne]

All right, I have to come out of hiding for this.

Tim Thomas would have been a fine signing at $21 million over four years, or even for the $24 million that the Clippers gave him.

Yes, his attitude is questionable, he doesn't make much effort on the boards, and he's a mediocre defender at best. But that's why he's not worth more than the MLE.

Every option that has been brought up since Thomas left has major problems. They're always injured, or they can't shoot, or they're awful defensively, or they already have one foot out the retirement door. That's another reason Thomas was worth the MLE. Cheaper players, by and large, suck.

The Suns lucked out big time with Raja Bell last summer. He took slightly less than the MLE and turned out to be a very good starting SG. Does anyone think that he would take the MLE now, after what he showed this past season? He'd probably be able to command a starting salary of $7 million from a team with cap space.

The Suns say their top eight are set, huh? I guess that has to include James Jones. I like Jones, but anyone who watched these recent playoffs knows that he would not even have gotten off the bench had Stoudemire and Kurt Thomas been able to contribute. He was simply outclassed. The Suns used him in desperation, and he did what he could, but it wasn't much. Now he's a lock for the top eight? And remember, it's "top eight" only if everyone stays healthy.

Thomas, had he taken $21/4, would have made about $2 million more per year than Jones. Knock Thomas's effort all you like, but he's a huge upgrade over Jones. If the Suns are really that worried about every penny, don't you think they could have packaged Jones with one of their picks to a team with cap space?

I can tell you where we're all going to be a year from now. We'll be lamenting a loss in the second or third round of the playoffs, blaming it on the bad luck of an injury or one key player hitting a slump. Serious contenders don't go into the season saying, "If everything goes exactly perfectly, we have a pretty good chance." They plan for other contingencies.

By this point, it's clear that none of the roster fill-outs are going to be impact players. All of you that have been asking to see what last year's roster could have done, you have your wish -- last year's roster is exactly what they're going to have.

I'm sure this next point will make me very unpopular, but too bad: Marion's contract is killing the Suns. Except for teams with infinite payrolls, a championship rotation is made up of these kinds of players:

1. Stars on big contracts
2. Role players on affordable contracts
3. "Bargain" players who are either youngsters still on their cheap rookie deals, veterans playing for cheap to chase the dream, or diamonds in the rough who step up unexpectedly

Categories (2) and (3) are critical. In (2), the Suns have only Bell and Jones (unless you want to call Kurt Thomas's contract "affordable"). In (3), they have Diaw and Barbosa -- and no one else, since they don't add rookies to the roster anymore. Maybe they hoped that the old "join us for a championship" sell would lure some solid veterans, but that hasn't happened.

So it all comes down to their group (1). The Suns' big three will combine for about $38 million next year. The Heat's big three, by salary (O'Neal, Williams, and Walker) combine for only $36 million -- and they have Wade, still on his rookie deal. For San Antonio (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili), it's also $36 million. Dallas, if you ignore Finley, has Nowitzki, Dampier, and Stackhouse combining for $32 million (and they have infinite money anyway). We can't look at Detroit right now, because we don't know what's going on with them.

So among the likely contenders, the Suns are paying the most for their three biggest contracts. The franchise is financially handicapped, and it's starting to show.

Marion makes more money than any player on those top teams, other than Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan. He makes more than Nowitzki, Elton Brand, or anyone on the Pistons. (He makes more than Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton combined.) Some on this board are fond of saying that the money doesn't matter to us fans. Well, when it has a direct impact on the team's ability to prepare for a championship run, I think it matters.

Imagine if Marion was making a few million dollars per year less, more in line with his status as the third (or fourth) best player on a contending team. The Suns could have rolled the dice with Tim Thomas and not been paralyzed with fear about getting stuck behind his "big" contract. They could have kept one of their first-round picks, just in case they were wrong about how good a player he might become. (It's been known to happen.) They could be more of a player right now with the low-level free agents still looking for homes, instead of settling for a joke like Eric Piatkowski. They could try to bribe a player over from Europe -- think D'Antoni might know of any?

Instead, they're completely stuck. The reason they aren't making any real moves is because they can't afford to. And anyone who thinks they're going to add three rookies next summer is dreaming, because the problem is only going to get worse with the extensions to Diaw and possibly Barbosa.

D'Antoni says he can't imagine the Suns winning a championship without Marion on the roster. That's sweet. Unfortunately, I say the opposite. I can't see them winning a title as long as he's here. He's a great guy, plays hard, and brings a lot to the floor. But he simply makes way too much money to be a third or fourth option. That's becoming clearer by the day, and for those of you who don't see that yet, you might as well start coming up with your other excuses for why the Suns will fail again this year.

Great post, you hit the nail right on the head.

But i totally agree with the stuff on Shawn Marion.

I just don't see this team doing much until we move Marion's contract.

We won't beable to solve our depth problems, and this will always bite us on the ass in the playoffs when fatigue and injuries come knocking on our door.

For all the people thinking we're a lock for the 2007 NBA title, it won't happen unless every single top 6 player stays healthy during the playoffs.And what are the chances of that happening?

This offseason would've been perfect to move Marion, cause it would've allowed us to re-sign Tim Thomas,Boris Diaw and Leandro Barbosa to multi year extensions and still pick up extra players for the bench like a PG.Not to mention we would've gotten 2-3 players for Marion himself and maybe even a future 1st rounder.

Thats a team that would've been 10+ deep and would have alot of pieces to trade, like young players and other teams first rounders.

Thats how you build a championship team, by surrounding your main pieces (Amare and Nash) with good secondary players and trading chips to make yourself better if a injury happenings during the season, or if you just need a upgrade.

Role players (Even the best Role Players) should never recieve max contracts, Chicago will soon learn this with Ben Wallace.And the Suns are already paying for it.Even if some of you don't want to believe their paying for it.

It's always going to come down to Joe Johnson or Shawn Marion?

Boris Diaw or Shawn Marion? Leandro Barbosa or Shawn Marion? Tim Thomas or Shawn Marion?

Sooner or later Suns front office will realize that Marion too is also just a expensive luxury like D'Antoni said about Tim Thomas, and he won't be the determining factor if we want to win a championship.

 

[NastyOne]

PHX gets nowhere close to a championship WITHOUT Marion.

Hell, they wouldn't even sniff the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th seed without Marion's accomplishments during the regular season.

Gotta get there first, Eric.

People look at Marions numbers and think hes some kind of Superstar.

How many times have you watched a suns game in the past few years and think "Where the hell is Marion", just to look at the boxscore and he has 20/10?

You don't even notice him most of the time, cause hes not an impact player, hes a stat stuffer imo and you don't pay max money for that.

We could get 2-3 guys that could come off the bench and match or better Marion's numbers.

 

[devilalum]

The system can gets the best out of talented bench players in case a starter is injured. Diaw and LB were the products. Our problem was we didn't have enough talent after them last season and our bench were too short to main the speed vs. the well-prepared opponents without inevitable further injuries and severe weardowns of the starters. That'd change with my proposed trade. We'd have better chance than last year even without Amare.

Everybody in the West is getting better.

No way we get past the Lakers or the Clips without Amare since we added nothing elsewhere.

No if Amare stays healthy we just made the best addition to our roster of any team in the league.

 

[cly2tw]

Everybody in the West is getting better.

No way we get past the Lakers or the Clips without Amare since we added nothing elsewhere.

No if Amare stays healthy we just made the best addition to our roster of any team in the league.

Chandler/KT/Songaila/Diaw/Deng/Bell/Thabo/Nash/LB

That's a 9 men rotation that can go deep into the playoffs by itself, not to mention we still have the MLE to spend.

 

[devilalum]

People look at Marions numbers and think hes some kind of Superstar.

How many times have you watched a suns game in the past few years and think "Where the hell is Marion", just to look at the boxscore and he has 20/10?

You don't even notice him most of the time, cause hes not an impact player, hes a stat stuffer imo and you don't pay max money for that.

We could get 2-3 guys that could come off the bench and match or better Marion's numbers.

He's a stat stuffer? What does that mean?

If a player gets 20/10 on a last place team then you say that his stats are meaningless but Marion plays for the Suns.

Trading Marion for 3 guys sounds too much like Barkley for Horry, Cassell and Bryant.

If the SUns sent out a mesage league wide saying that they wnted to trade Marion for 3 role players every single team in the league would line up to make an offer.

 

[devilalum]

Chandler/KT/Songaila/Diaw/Deng/Bell/Thabo/Nash/LB

That's a 9 men rotation that can go deep into the playoffs by itself, not to mention we still have the MLE to spend.

How is that lineup so different from last years Bulls team?

Why do you think the Bulls coughed up a lung for a superstar?

 

[NastyOne]

Everybody in the West is getting better.

No way we get past the Lakers or the Clips without Amare since we added nothing elsewhere.

No if Amare stays healthy we just made the best addition to our roster of any team in the league.

But what happens if someone else goes down? Like how someone always goes down with us.

We have no depth, and one injury to anyone in our top 7 hurts us bigtime.

If Parker or Manu get hurt, Spurs can take that hit cause they have the depth.

Terry or Stackhouse get hurt, Same thing with the Mavs, they can still play top basketball.

If Bell or Barbosa get hurt, we're going to suffer bigtime, cause this will force Nash to play way more minutes and he'll probably end up getting injured too.

This is a 7 deep team, one injury kills us cause it will snowball into our starters having to play more.

 

[NastyOne]

He's a stat stuffer? What does that mean?

If a player gets 20/10 on a last place team then you say that his stats are meaningless but Marion plays for the Suns.

Trading Marion for 3 guys sounds too much like Barkley for Horry, Cassell and Bryant.

If the SUns sent out a mesage league wide saying that they wnted to trade Marion for 3 role players every single team in the league would line up to make an offer.

Okay stat stuffer might've been going to far, but he still is a player that you don't gameplan for or gameplan to stop.

And hes making max money for that? You don't even know Marion's on the court most of the time hes out there.Other than the big dunks.

Hes a nice player, and i would also be in love with him if he made 10mil per.

But at 16mil?

 

[devilalum]

But what happens if someone else goes down? Like how someone always goes down with us.

We have no depth, and one injury to anyone in our top 7 hurts us bigtime.

If Parker or Manu get hurt, Spurs can take that hit cause they have the depth.

Terry or Stackhouse get hurt, Same thing with the Mavs, they can still play top basketball.

If Bell or Barbosa get hurt, we're going to suffer bigtime, cause this will force Nash to play way more minutes and he'll probably end up getting injured too.

This is a 7 deep team, one injury kills us cause it will snowball into our starters having to play more.

You're right. Depth does help when players go down but depth doesn't help when your superstars go down.

Take Amare or Nash from the SUns and forget it. Take Dirk from the Mavs and they would have no chance of winning a ring. The Heat without Wade? The Spurs without Duncan?

My point is that stars are more important than depth. In the playoffs you don't need depth because of fatigue with all the time outs and days off.

The Suns have 3 stars Amare, Nash and Marion. They have Diaw, LB, Bell, KT and Jones who are all quality role players. If these 8 guys are helthy the SUns have the best 8 man rotation the league.

They need to add one more quality role player. I believe they could get this for the exception and a pick. If they had just paid TT the $21 mil they'd be pretty set.

 

[devilalum]

Okay stat stuffer might've been going to far, but he still is a player that you don't gameplan for or gameplan to stop.

And hes making max money for that? You don't even know Marion's on the court most of the time hes out there.Other than the big dunks.

Hes a nice player, and i would also be in love with him if he made 10mil per.

But at 16mil?

Every team in the playoffs had a special plan to stop the Diaw to Marion back door lob. Yeah he makes too much but all those teams that are calling with offers know how much he makes.

 

[NastyOne]

You're right. Depth does help when players go down but depth doesn't help when your superstars go down.

Take Amare or Nash from the SUns and forget it. Take Dirk from the Mavs and they would have no chance of winning a ring. The Heat without Wade? The Spurs without Duncan?

Thats the reason i didnt include any SuperStars, cause any teams Stars go down they really don't stand a chance, Unless you have two superstar like us having Nash and Amare.

My point is that stars are more important than depth. In the playoffs you don't need depth because of fatigue with all the time outs and days off.

The reason we lost this year was because of no depth, as soon as Raja went down it killed us.Not to mention i thought we could've won it all if Kurt Thomas didnt get hurt.

And the playoffs are brutal, you get one day off between games and we all saw how that wore Nash down.Thats why you need others to lessen your stars minutes without hurting you.

The Suns have 3 stars Amare, Nash and Marion. They have Diaw, LB, Bell, KT and Jones who are all quality role players. If these 8 guys are helthy the SUns have the best 8 man rotation the league.

They need to add one more quality role player. I believe they could get this for the exception and a pick. If they had just paid TT the $21 mil they'd be pretty set.

I don't know if they have the best rotation in the league, cause other teams are way deeper, and this makes your starters better over the course of the season and playoffs.

And we're banking on the Suns staying completely healthy for 82 games and the playoffs.

When was the last time that happened?

 

[devilalum]

The reason we lost this year was because of no depth, as soon as Raja went down it killed us.Not to mention i thought we could've won it all if Kurt Thomas didnt get hurt.

We lost 3 starters last year. Name another team that would have done as well as we did with 3 starters down?

 

[devilalum]

And we're banking on the Suns staying completely healthy for 82 games and the playoffs.

When was the last time that happened?

I don't think they need to stay completely healthy during the regular season but they do need everybody healthy for the playoffs. I think one more quality player would help make this happen.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't think they need to stay completely healthy during the regular season but they do need everybody healthy for the playoffs. I think one more quality player would help make this happen.

I agree.

IMO, if the Suns have any money they want to spend besides the veteran minimum they should invest it in one good player. The Suns really need another 4/5 that can provide depth the most, however, if the Suns could spend the money on another ballhandler to help Nash this might suffice.

However, the Suns really need to sign the BPA much like the Suns used to do in the draft irregardless of position and let the rest of the dominoes fall as they may using minimum type players

I wonder if Jumaine Jones is still available and would he be a good fit?

Edit: I forgot to say, it's good to have you back Eric.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

All right, I have to come out of hiding for this.

Tim Thomas would have been a fine signing at $21 million over four years, or even for the $24 million that the Clippers gave him.

Yes, his attitude is questionable, he doesn't make much effort on the boards, and he's a mediocre defender at best. But that's why he's not worth more than the MLE.

Every option that has been brought up since Thomas left has major problems. They're always injured, or they can't shoot, or they're awful defensively, or they already have one foot out the retirement door. That's another reason Thomas was worth the MLE. Cheaper players, by and large, suck.

The Suns lucked out big time with Raja Bell last summer. He took slightly less than the MLE and turned out to be a very good starting SG. Does anyone think that he would take the MLE now, after what he showed this past season? He'd probably be able to command a starting salary of $7 million from a team with cap space.

The Suns say their top eight are set, huh? I guess that has to include James Jones. I like Jones, but anyone who watched these recent playoffs knows that he would not even have gotten off the bench had Stoudemire and Kurt Thomas been able to contribute. He was simply outclassed. The Suns used him in desperation, and he did what he could, but it wasn't much. Now he's a lock for the top eight? And remember, it's "top eight" only if everyone stays healthy.

Thomas, had he taken $21/4, would have made about $2 million more per year than Jones. Knock Thomas's effort all you like, but he's a huge upgrade over Jones. If the Suns are really that worried about every penny, don't you think they could have packaged Jones with one of their picks to a team with cap space?

I can tell you where we're all going to be a year from now. We'll be lamenting a loss in the second or third round of the playoffs, blaming it on the bad luck of an injury or one key player hitting a slump. Serious contenders don't go into the season saying, "If everything goes exactly perfectly, we have a pretty good chance." They plan for other contingencies.

By this point, it's clear that none of the roster fill-outs are going to be impact players. All of you that have been asking to see what last year's roster could have done, you have your wish -- last year's roster is exactly what they're going to have.

I'm sure this next point will make me very unpopular, but too bad: Marion's contract is killing the Suns. Except for teams with infinite payrolls, a championship rotation is made up of these kinds of players:

1. Stars on big contracts
2. Role players on affordable contracts
3. "Bargain" players who are either youngsters still on their cheap rookie deals, veterans playing for cheap to chase the dream, or diamonds in the rough who step up unexpectedly

Categories (2) and (3) are critical. In (2), the Suns have only Bell and Jones (unless you want to call Kurt Thomas's contract "affordable"). In (3), they have Diaw and Barbosa -- and no one else, since they don't add rookies to the roster anymore. Maybe they hoped that the old "join us for a championship" sell would lure some solid veterans, but that hasn't happened.

So it all comes down to their group (1). The Suns' big three will combine for about $38 million next year. The Heat's big three, by salary (O'Neal, Williams, and Walker) combine for only $36 million -- and they have Wade, still on his rookie deal. For San Antonio (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili), it's also $36 million. Dallas, if you ignore Finley, has Nowitzki, Dampier, and Stackhouse combining for $32 million (and they have infinite money anyway). We can't look at Detroit right now, because we don't know what's going on with them.

So among the likely contenders, the Suns are paying the most for their three biggest contracts. The franchise is financially handicapped, and it's starting to show.

Marion makes more money than any player on those top teams, other than Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan. He makes more than Nowitzki, Elton Brand, or anyone on the Pistons. (He makes more than Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton combined.) Some on this board are fond of saying that the money doesn't matter to us fans. Well, when it has a direct impact on the team's ability to prepare for a championship run, I think it matters.

Imagine if Marion was making a few million dollars per year less, more in line with his status as the third (or fourth) best player on a contending team. The Suns could have rolled the dice with Tim Thomas and not been paralyzed with fear about getting stuck behind his "big" contract. They could have kept one of their first-round picks, just in case they were wrong about how good a player he might become. (It's been known to happen.) They could be more of a player right now with the low-level free agents still looking for homes, instead of settling for a joke like Eric Piatkowski. They could try to bribe a player over from Europe -- think D'Antoni might know of any?

Instead, they're completely stuck. The reason they aren't making any real moves is because they can't afford to. And anyone who thinks they're going to add three rookies next summer is dreaming, because the problem is only going to get worse with the extensions to Diaw and possibly Barbosa.

D'Antoni says he can't imagine the Suns winning a championship without Marion on the roster. That's sweet. Unfortunately, I say the opposite. I can't see them winning a title as long as he's here. He's a great guy, plays hard, and brings a lot to the floor. But he simply makes way too much money to be a third or fourth option. That's becoming clearer by the day, and for those of you who don't see that yet, you might as well start coming up with your other excuses for why the Suns will fail again this year.

Eric is right, the problem here is simple; when the third or fourth best player on a more fiscally conservative team is making the highest salary, it causes problems. My concern is next year, when everybody and their mother knows we need to dump Marion, what will we get in return? At around 15 mil per, and knowing he needs to go, I doubt we get as attractive an offer as Shard Lewis, an all star last year and #10, which could have been Brewer. Things could all play out here, but nothing positive has happened yet, only the worst case scenario, especially with the backup point role. Everyone here has seen Barbo as the backup point, and the thought of him as Nash's primary backup is very scary, especially with Nash's problems every year to overuse.

 

[WildBB]

. Thomas is loss Suns can survive

Paola Boivin
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 4, 2006 12:00 AM


Some have criticized Thomas for not being true to his word, but c'mon, $24 million vs. $12 million, four years vs. three? This was a guy who not long ago had a bad reputation in the NBA. You can't blame him for wanting stability.

Yea - exactly - it's whats wrong with pro sports today. Were supposed to feel sorry for these guys , playing a GAME they love to play and opting for the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ rather than the community and the team. Totally buisness for these athletes now and believe it or not it affects the overall product and viability of the sport. Yes money rules in Pro Sports and fans suffer for it - in the teams following their favorite players and teams yr. to yr. and in their wallets paying for overinflated seats because of the overinflated market value of the athletes compared to normal workers salaries. The quality of the game experience for the price isn't worth it anymore.

The players need to get that. They're not taking from the owners pockets - they're taking fromn the fans - cause the owners pass the cost onto us.

 

[sly fly]

People look at Marions numbers and think hes some kind of Superstar.

How many times have you watched a suns game in the past few years and think "Where the hell is Marion", just to look at the boxscore and he has 20/10?

You don't even notice him most of the time, cause hes not an impact player, hes a stat stuffer imo and you don't pay max money for that.

We could get 2-3 guys that could come off the bench and match or better Marion's numbers.

Do you realize how ignorant this post is?