Boivin TT article - a must read

[George O'Brien]

We don't know what they offered Hunter. We know for sure that Claxton and Jackson are far too expensive for what their role on the Suns would be.

 

[NastyOne]

Quit your crying.

The post was comical, and was so off-base. The only word that came to my mind was "ignorant". I didn't call the person "ignorant".

Why should I take the time to disprove anything in that post? I mean, c'mon...

My post is ignorant because i don't believe Marion is worth his contract?

I can name many guys that could replace Marion and have their numbers improve with us, while not paying them anything close to $16Mil.

And two of them are free agents this offseason in Al Harrington and Bonzi Wells.

We might lose some defense and rebounding, but we can also add more players to the bench that can fill those holes.

And how anyone can think its some huge plus that Marion can average 20ppg without having plays run for him, is beyond me.

Put Gerald Wallace in Marion's position and he averages 15-20ppg on this team.

The same with any other athletic fowards in the league that play hard.

There is a reason why Marion's scoring drops when the playoffs start and the good teams play tighter defense.

And superstars numbers are supposed to get better in the playoffs not worse.And yes he should be considered with the other Superstars since hes being paid like one.

Hes a good player, but out of all the 20/10 guys can anyone really say they would take Marion before any of the rest?

 

[playstation]

I'm not blaming anyone. It's just the way it is. However, I believe Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the United States... so the market must be there.

wrong argument. phx metro area is 14th largest in the country. that makes us a middle-market team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_statistical_areas_by_population

as a middle-market, we have an EXCEEDINGLY high number of entertainment options due to 4 major professional sports teams and an excellent year-round climate, not to mention the high number of transplants further diluting the potential fanbase.

 

[George O'Brien]

My post is ignorant because i don't believe Marion is worth his contract?

I can name many guys that could replace Marion and have their numbers improve with us, while not paying them anything close to $16Mil.

And two of them are free agents this offseason in Al Harrington and Bonzi Wells.

This is the myth that never dies. Totally unloading Marion does not give the Suns $15 million to spend. It gives them the $5 million MLE because they would not be far enough below the cap to pay more. Also, now that the Bulls have used their cap space on Wallace, there is no playoff team far enough below the cap to take him on.

Most of us agree that Marion is overpaid. It doesn't matter. It appears that every team in the NBA asked about Marion, but they all wanted to give expiring contracts and other miscellanout stuff that wasn't going to help the Suns win this year. It sure wasn't going to get the Suns Harrinton (a poor fit in the Suns sytems) or Wells (a guy with a bad reputation in Memphis along with being injury prone).

 

[NastyOne]

This is the myth that never dies. Totally unloading Marion does not give the Suns $15 million to spend. It gives them the $5 million MLE because they would not be far enough below the cap to pay more. Also, now that the Bulls have used their cap space on Wallace, there is no playoff team far enough below the cap to take him on.

Most of us agree that Marion is overpaid. It doesn't matter. It appears that every team in the NBA asked about Marion, but they all wanted to give expiring contracts and other miscellanout stuff that wasn't going to help the Suns win this year. It sure wasn't going to get the Suns Harrinton (a poor fit in the Suns sytems) or Wells (a guy with a bad reputation in Memphis along with being injury prone).

I wasnt saying we would get Harrington or Wells after trading Marion, but pointing out that players that can fill Marion's spot are available every year for way less than $16Mil per.

And i too also think its to late now to move Marion

We had our chance before the draft, which i think was the perfect time.

 

[Chaplin]

I wasnt saying we would get Harrington or Wells after trading Marion, but pointing out that players that can fill Marion's spot are available every year for way less than $16Mil per.

You're right. Dan Langhi can fill Marion's spot and he is WAY less than $16mil.

 

[devilalum]

Quit your crying.

The post was comical, and was so off-base. The only word that came to my mind was "ignorant". I didn't call the person "ignorant".

Why should I take the time to disprove anything in that post? I mean, c'mon...

Like I said, if you felt all that why didn't you just ignore it?

What you said wasn't that bad, I just get tired of people being personally critical. Saying what you think about someones ideas or opinions is one thing but just insulting a person is weak.
This is basically the same thing if you don't back it up with something.

 

[NastyOne]

You're right. Dan Langhi can fill Marion's spot and he is WAY less than $16mil.

Hey its better than handicapping your entire team with a max contract for a role player.

 

[devilalum]

I wasnt saying we would get Harrington or Wells after trading Marion, but pointing out that players that can fill Marion's spot are available every year for way less than $16Mil per.

And i too also think its to late now to move Marion

We had our chance before the draft, which i think was the perfect time.

Name one player that is top 20 in 20 statistical categories that makes less than Marion.

:cricketschirping:

 

[Chaplin]

Hey its better than handicapping your entire team with a max contract for a role player.

I can only assume this is a joke. Because if it isn't, well...

 

[NastyOne]

I can only assume this is a joke. Because if it isn't, well...

How is it a joke?

Last year it was Joe Johnson or Shawn Marion, cause we couldnt afford both with Amare and Nash down the road.And you can bet your ass Marion would've been traded this offseason if we resigned Joe Johnson.

This year its Tim Thomas or anyone else we might need to improve the roster with or Shawn Marion.

We will never beable to better our roster when our 4th option is making max money.

Next offseason it will be either trade Marion or allow Diaw or Barbosa to walk or sign and trade them away.

We all know that Sarver wants to avoid the luxury tax, and by paying Marion $16Mil and still having a complete team will never happen.

No contender needs 3 max players.

 

[Mainstreet]

wrong argument. phx metro area is 14th largest in the country. that makes us a middle-market team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_statistical_areas_by_population

as a middle-market, we have an EXCEEDINGLY high number of entertainment options due to 4 major professional sports teams and an excellent year-round climate, not to mention the high number of transplants further diluting the potential fanbase.

Here's a source that supports my point.

"However, I believe Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the United States... so the market must be there."

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/0630phx-census0630Z3.html

IMO, this is not a discussion that needs to have a winner. There are a lot of ways to look at this. I was just commenting on what I read (which seems to be a good source).

 

[pokerface]

Elindholm.....

For starters you seem like Johnney come lately as far as wising up to Marions salary and the implications. Secondly, I dont think our inability to keep TT is some kind of death blow to a championship...thats laughable. Third, trading Marion doesnt mean the free agent class becomes better all of a sudden. You're saying we should trade Marion so D'Antoni can go after some unknown in Europe?? Was that a joke?

Marion DOES make a lot of money but he's not the sole drain on our salary. The Suns are a "victim" of having too many good players. Marion is just the most obvious culprit. That doesnt mean because we have Marion we dont win a championship. No one can say that....no one knows because we had Amare out. Why isnt Amare the culprit? Maybe we dont win a championship while Amare is on the team...huh? Marion at least played last season (and had a career year I might add)....What did Amare do??

 

[playstation]

Here's a source that supports my point.

"However, I believe Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the United States... so the market must be there."

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/0630phx-census0630Z3.html

IMO, this is not a discussion that needs to have a winner. There are a lot of ways to look at this. I was just commenting on what I read (which seems to be a good source).

think about what you just posted. if a city itself is large and its surrounding area is tiny, should that not factor into a decision of how large the market is?

its just a bit annoying to hear the provincial phoenix fan always talking about how large phoenix is, when in reality the area is not as populous as people would have you believe.

i don't believe in winners and losers by the way, if you want to believe phoenix is huge because its #5, go for it...

 

[arthurracoon]

argh

 

[MastersofCombat]

The Suns have reached a point that if they can keep Marion, Nash, Amare,Diaw,Bell, Jones they have a fighting chance in the west.

I do believe if theres nothing out there dont force something.... Maybe a trade later.

 

[Covert Rain]

Name one player that is top 20 in 20 statistical categories that makes less than Marion.

:cricketschirping:

And I think he missed the point. Trading Marion doesn't give you 16 million per year in cap space. It only gives you 5 MLE to get another player. So exactly how is the 16 million per year hurting the team? That is completely false.

Like you said, show me another player that you could sign for the 5 million MLE with Shawn Marions statistics?

You can't.

The only person that the other 11 million of that contract matters to is Saver because he has to pay it.

 

[cly2tw]

Quit your crying.

The post was comical, and was so off-base. The only word that came to my mind was "ignorant". I didn't call the person "ignorant".

Why should I take the time to disprove anything in that post? I mean, c'mon...

Do you want a poll on it, about whose post were more ignorant, the one you ridiculed or your own name-calling one?

 

[cly2tw]

Questions for the guys who think Marion doesn't deserve his contract as it relates to cap freedom..

- Did Marion's play last year justify the $$$ he tied up in cap space?

- Do you think PHX wins the Pacific Division w/o Shawn Marion?

- Would PHX have made it out of the 1st round w/o Shawn Marion?

My take:

- Yes.
- No.
- No.

So, in essence... this guy was an integral part of the overall picture. Which means his contract is what it is. Deal with it. Or, just be careful what you wish for.

No.
Yes.
Yes.

Under the condition that that 15 mil cap Marion's took was reasonably used for other players of need.

 

[Chaplin]

No.
Yes.
Yes.

Under the condition that that 15 mil cap Marion's took was reasonably used for other players of need.

That last sentence invalidates your answers to those questions. Look at those questions without making such an assumption, and the answers are different.

 

[cly2tw]

That last sentence invalidates your answers to those questions. Look at those questions without making such an assumption, and the answers are different.

That's exactly what's faulty in the logics of most pro-Marion fans here. They just look at the stats and say without his contribution the remaining team stats would imply a total failure to achieve anything.

Yet, the true argument is about what an alternative roster with Marion's contract replaced by others could achieve. When we say, get rid of him, we always picture a full alternative roster.

 

[Chaplin]

That's exactly what's faulty in the logics of most pro-Marion fans here. They just look at the stats and say without his contribution the remaining team stats would imply a total failure to achieve anything.

Yet, the true argument is about what an alternative roster with Marion's contract replaced by others could achieve. When we say, get rid of him, we always picture a full alternative roster.

If you're looking at assuming a replacement, or replacements, will equal Marion's production, then there is no point in discussing it because no manner of differing viewpoint will sway you.

I look at it and say that if it was KG for Marion, then sure, there wouldn't be a drop off. But if it was Marion for 3 role players, they would most definitely NOT equal Marion's production, because 3 role players that cannot affect the outcome of a game does not equal one star who can. That's not even mentioning if you do some money-matching--while Jermaine O'Neal might be comparable, Erick Dampier would not.

Assuming that whatever we would receive in return for Marion would equal his production is unrealistic--which is why he hasn't been traded yet this summer--that's all the offers the Suns have been getting.

 

[tobiazz]

No.
Yes.
Yes.

Under the condition that that 15 mil cap Marion's took was reasonably used for other players of need.

What would you use that $15 million for that would better serve the team than Marion?

1) A single player making over $10 million (e.g. Ben Wallace, Rashard Lewis)
2) A borderline allstar player at $10 million plus a $5 million player (e.g. )
3) Three $5 million guys, perhaps on rookie contracts (e.g. Claxton + Pryzbilla + some good rookie)

Depth would be better, but at the expense of Marion the team would not be better.

Marion is very valuable. He's not worth MAX as much as maybe Garnett, Kobe, Wade, etc but he is still an excellent player. He is one of the most versatile players in the entire league. His main flaws are that he doesn't draw a double team or shoot lights out from 3pt range. At the same time, if we replaced him with a different 11+ rebounder we would cry that the guy can't run down the floor. If we replaced him with a great shooting PF/SF we would complain that he can't rebound or something.

 

[cly2tw]

Chaplin, tobiazz,

that's where judgments differ. But it's no way as trivial as sly sly made it to be in his post.

When thinking in team terms, it's hard or even irrelevant to talk about whether his stats could or could not be duplicated or bettered by his direct replacements. With an alternative roster without him, the whole dynamics of the game and game plans change too. So, even though I'd say his stats could be duplicated by his "direct" replacements, more relevant statement is that I believe we can have an alternative roster that is more successful. That's also at the core of elindolm's lengthy reasoning in another thread.

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin, tobiazz,

that's where judgments differ. But it's no way as trivial as sly sly made it to be in his post.

When thinking in team terms, it's hard or even irrelevant to talk about whether his stats could or could not be duplicated or bettered by his direct replacements. With an alternative roster without him, the whole dynamics of the game and game plans change too. So, even though I'd say his stats could be duplicated by his "direct" replacements, more relevant statement is that I believe we can have an alternative roster that is more successful. That's also at the core of elindolm's lengthy reasoning in another thread.

Well, I'd agree with that if we traded Marion for KG straight up!