Boldin and the domino effect

[conraddobler]

This issue has more far-reaching implications than simply Boldin.

More and more the Cardinal franchise (who's not used to winning consistently) will have to deal with the problems that accompany growing success.

As more and more players arrive who play at a high level, more attention has to be paid toward retaining as many as possible. This, in turn, will place greater and greater stress on the budget and cap and challenge the front office's creativity in putting together deals.

I imagine that management of perennial playoff contenders are used to this situation and can automatically go to their "negotiations playbooks" to come up with the right answers. This figures to be more unexplored territory for the Cardinals.

In addition, well-intrenched contenders need only point to their W & L track records to sell their key players on remaining (let alone attract new players)

I think it's important we (a) make Q feel wanted and (b) get a deal done. Because it will help establish a positive precedent for addressing the challenges that figure to come fast and furious in the future.

The model that works best is New England and Pittsburg and even to a large extent Philly.

Those teams let players go most of the time because most of the time when that stuff starts up the players aren't really worth what they ask.

Now to further make my point, when said teams get desperate and sign a guy like TO then they start going down the road DG was warning about and that's giving a huge piece of the pie to one guy and poof that guy gets hurt and you are toast.

I am fully aware some players are worth every penny you give them, Boldin could be one of those players.

However if you give him Fitz money which will require large upfront dollars and his other knee or that one shoots craps you are really sunk now because you are not a franchise that can absord the loss of that much upfront money.

Nothing is for certain but injuries seem to follow certain players.

My best take is that in the end this turns into a straight out ego contest especially with Drew Rosenhaus involved and that we may very well make a really good offer that gets spurned because it is close enough to the deal Fitz got in enough details.

 

[Russ Smith]

I also wonder if there's any residual "anger" over the way his knee injury was handled this year? Remember the stuff about who read the MRI and declared him fit to play, was he rushed back to practice etc? Quan himself said while rehabbing he wanted to make sure he was ok before he came back this time, implying that he felt someone screwed up the first time.

He might be thinking look they just showed me this year what their priority is, get me back on the field, so I better take care of myself and get my money now?

I think losing Quan would have much greater negative impact than some people realize, Quan is the heart and soul of this team in many ways from what I can tell. Portis had his friends in Denver, but a lot of his teammates didn't like him, I guarantee you there were people GLAD to see him get traded. I don't think that'll be true with Quan I'd bet he's one of the more popular players on the team.

I just hope we handle it well, if we don't it could be a major stumbling block.

 

[conraddobler]

I also wonder if there's any residual "anger" over the way his knee injury was handled this year? Remember the stuff about who read the MRI and declared him fit to play, was he rushed back to practice etc? Quan himself said while rehabbing he wanted to make sure he was ok before he came back this time, implying that he felt someone screwed up the first time.

He might be thinking look they just showed me this year what their priority is, get me back on the field, so I better take care of myself and get my money now?

I think losing Quan would have much greater negative impact than some people realize, Quan is the heart and soul of this team in many ways from what I can tell. Portis had his friends in Denver, but a lot of his teammates didn't like him, I guarantee you there were people GLAD to see him get traded. I don't think that'll be true with Quan I'd bet he's one of the more popular players on the team.

I just hope we handle it well, if we don't it could be a major stumbling block.

I think so far the Cardinals have done a good job, they made offers, let him know he was wanted and they didn't have to with two years left.

I'm not really worried about us mishandling this as much as who is Boldin's agent.

In the end we will probably make an offer that is almost identical to Fitz's contract but the details will be what Drew Rosehaus will just muck up. Any attempt by the Cardinals at protecting themselves against legitimate injury concerns will be lauged at by DR.

There are too many big money teams that don't have to worry about losing upfront money and he knows it. He isn't going to take pity on us so in the end the contract will be the same or more as Fitz's and it will contain no protections whatsoever or it won't get signed.

 

[wierwolf]

If I can recall too... Isn't Quan still The go to guy on this team? Fitz would take more catches if he could separate. But Quan is still our man... He should be paid as such....

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Ray Thompson Effect? The guy if healthy would have had 90 catches and 1100+ Yards. Thats following the single greatest season by a rookie WR in the history of the NFL. Thats pretty consistent. HE has more catches through 25 games than any player in history.

He deserves to be paid!

I see your point. Ok, just for arguments sake, tell me how many catches you think boldin gets next year.

 

[Russ Smith]

I see your point. Ok, just for arguments sake, tell me how many catches you think boldin gets next year.

194.

Well you did say you wanted to argue.


I think 80 is realistic, he was on that pace and some this year, right now I see no reason to think he won't be healthy next year. With Rowen on board and presumably a better RB coming in I think we'll probably run more, and use the TE more, so I think it's reasonable to assume the WR's will catch less balls.

 

[D-Dogg]

I say see what he can do in 2005, if he pulls numbers like he did 2003 then look into giving him his big pay day. As bad and wrong as it is for me to say this, but he could go down again next season, and miss more time then he did this year!

Uhm, he will be holding out. You don't "wait and see." This is a situation that will be resolved by training camp, and probably by the time of the draft.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

He had one good year. Are you saying he deserves the big payday after his 2004 season stats?

You are saying that 56 catches, 623 yards and 1 TD in eight games (3 of which he was nursing an injury) is a bad year ? You got some lofty expectations.

I mean he keeps that pace for the full season he ends up with 112 catches and that would have been tops in the NFL.

Lets not talk about how he has the most catches during his first two years of his career than any other receiver in NFL history.....oh yeah and just remember he was hurt for a 1/2 of a season during this time too.

Stop playing it cheap and pay the man. This is the NFL not some NYC company and not Madden 2004.

AND SO WHAT IF Dockett wants more money, and Dansby will want more money? PAY THEM. GET THEM ON THE TEAM. You get about 87 million a year to pay your players. And you don't get any extra points for money left over.

Ridiculous. I spend hours upon days listening to people on this board whine that we have no talent on this team. But on the other hand if we sign somebody with talent it is too much money.

Anquan Boldin is not making the money he deserves, so he is doing what any other player would..he is holding out.

It is how the NFL works.

BTW - I have yet to hear one negative comment about Boldin's contract negotiations. Green said that the organization will get this deal done, and I believe it.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Call me crazy but didnt The Quan just have some cartiledge fixed this year? He did not have any ligament damage

The only real "major knee surgery" he had was in college. HE rebounded just fine from this one and is showing no ill effects. In fact he was getting better as the year went along.

The guy had almost 60 catches in 9 games and not fully healthy till the last few games. He also had two century mark games. At that rate he would have had another 90+ catch season with over 1100 yards and he is teh lowest paid WR on the team

PAY THE GUY!

Man I am with you on this!!!!

If you are worried about Boldin's knees then just look back at his first game back from injury in Miami.

He got tackled and his legs buckled underneath him. It looked horrible.

He wince for about 30 seconds, then got up and continued to play. He is durable.

Plus he is HUGE for a WR. Big, muscular, and can take a pounding.

Randy Moss was hurt this year......so the Vikings should cut him, and demand a pay cut by this logic!

 

[Russ Smith]

You are saying that 56 catches, 623 yards and 1 TD in eight games (3 of which he was nursing an injury) is a bad year ? You got some lofty expectations.

I mean he keeps that pace for the full season he ends up with 112 catches and that would have been tops in the NFL.

Lets not talk about how he has the most catches during his first two years of his career than any other receiver in NFL history.....oh yeah and just remember he was hurt for a 1/2 of a season during this time too.

He actually started 9 games and played in 10, he was on a pace for 89.6 catches this year.

is 157 really the record for first 2 years, I haven't seen it anywhere. Sounds like enough that it COULD be the record.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

He actually started 9 games and played in 10, he was on a pace for 89.6 catches this year.

is 157 really the record for first 2 years, I haven't seen it anywhere. Sounds like enough that it COULD be the record.

In terms of actual games played (Quan has less than two full seasons from this perspective) Quan has the all time lead.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

194.

Well you did say you wanted to argue.


I think 80 is realistic, he was on that pace and some this year, right now I see no reason to think he won't be healthy next year. With Rowen on board and presumably a better RB coming in I think we'll probably run more, and use the TE more, so I think it's reasonable to assume the WR's will catch less balls.

I think that you pay him for 80 catches then (Whatever that is worth) (2 mil signing bonus, 1.5 million a year?).

Throw in some incentive clauses so that if he breaks out in 05' or 06', he gets more.

Build through the draft and moderately priced FAs. Resign who you have to, but don't let anybody break the bank.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Quan's problem is that he's not in a very strong negotiation position after his injury.

I understand the idea of not throwing money around if you don't have to. But, team ownership needs to be reasonable too. A team has to know when to show appreciation for superior effort and performance. It's just the way we do business in America. You work hard, you perform excellently, you get rewarded. Like Spanky's 25k bonus.

"Appreciation" would manifest itself, in this case, by giving a player like Quan a new deal that would pay him something approximating his fair-market-value in 2005.

So, to me, the question is, in terms of dollars, what is Quan's FMV for 2005?

I tend to agree with this, the tricky part is how you determine his FMV for 2005? I mean its certainly lower than after 2003 year b/c of his injury but with Fitz contract will Quan expect the same?

I dont want to be a pessimist here but this could certainly become a major issue for the 2005 season!

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I tend to agree with this, the tricky part is how you determine his FMV for 2005? I mean its certainly lower than after 2003 year b/c of his injury but with Fitz contract will Quan expect the same?

I dont want to be a pessimist here but this could certainly become a major issue for the 2005 season!

How many catches do you think Quan will have in 2005 LV?

 

[Russ Smith]

I think that you pay him for 80 catches then (Whatever that is worth) (2 mil signing bonus, 1.5 million a year?).

Throw in some incentive clauses so that if he breaks out in 05' or 06', he gets more.

Build through the draft and moderately priced FAs. Resign who you have to, but don't let anybody break the bank.

But how do you determine that when I'm paying Fitz a LOT more than that, and I expect him to catch LESS than 80?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

But how do you determine that when I'm paying Fitz a LOT more than that, and I expect him to catch LESS than 80?

It's probably impossible to not negotiate a particular player's contract in terms of other player's contracts at his position. I see what you're saying Russ.

However, did we negotiate AWs contract in terms of Sean Taylor's deal?

We're not facinging a similar situation with Quan. I think that rookie signing bonuses (especially picks one through five) are an unfair context to use when considering Quans FMV.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

He had one good year. Are you saying he deserves the big payday after his 2004 season stats?

yes and put him back in the slot why they are at it

 

[Shane]

Given Quans history already its reasonable to expect him to catch 80+ balls next year. Which again puts him at a pro-bowl level. The guy just produces and is a good damn WR make him happy.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

How many catches do you think Quan will have in 2005 LV?

I am not sure, but you would think-even with Fitz in the lineup-that Quan will catch 75-80 balls on average right?
Problem is lots of guys catch 75-80 ballas a year and DONT make the type of money Fitz make.....I just cant see how Fitz contract does anything but hurt negotiations with Quan

 

[arthurracoon]

You are saying that 56 catches, 623 yards and 1 TD in eight games (3 of which he was nursing an injury) is a bad year ? You got some lofty expectations.

I mean he keeps that pace for the full season he ends up with 112 catches and that would have been tops in the NFL.

Lets not talk about how he has the most catches during his first two years of his career than any other receiver in NFL history.....oh yeah and just remember he was hurt for a 1/2 of a season during this time too.

Stop playing it cheap and pay the man. This is the NFL not some NYC company and not Madden 2004.

AND SO WHAT IF Dockett wants more money, and Dansby will want more money? PAY THEM. GET THEM ON THE TEAM. You get about 87 million a year to pay your players. And you don't get any extra points for money left over.

Ridiculous. I spend hours upon days listening to people on this board whine that we have no talent on this team. But on the other hand if we sign somebody with talent it is too much money.

Anquan Boldin is not making the money he deserves, so he is doing what any other player would..he is holding out.

It is how the NFL works.

BTW - I have yet to hear one negative comment about Boldin's contract negotiations. Green said that the organization will get this deal done, and I believe it.

 

[Shane]

I am not sure, but you would think-even with Fitz in the lineup-that Quan will catch 75-80 balls on average right?
Problem is lots of guys catch 75-80 ballas a year and DONT make the type of money Fitz make.....I just cant see how Fitz contract does anything but hurt negotiations with Quan

Boldin was on pace to catch 90 balls this year. You take that and his 101 last year and you could reasonably say that Boldin would catch at least 85 balls next year. There are only 12 WRs in the NFL that had 85+ catches. Thats pretty elite company.

The guy has leverage to negotiate a better deal. One that at the very least puts him in the top 15 payed WRs in the league possibly top 10.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Boldin was on pace to catch 90 balls this year. You take that and his 101 last year and you could reasonably say that Boldin would catch at least 85 balls next year. There are only 12 WRs in the NFL that had 85+ catches. Thats pretty elite company.

The guy has leverage to negotiate a better deal. One that at the very least puts him in the top 15 payed WRs in the league possibly top 10.

I agree with the top 15 WR contract. That would be fine, but with Fitz playing along side him and destined to catch less (if what you say is true that Quan will catch 85 passes a year I doubt Fitz will catch close to that) why wouldnt Quan want more money?

 

[Shane]

I agree with the top 15 WR contract. That would be fine, but with Fitz playing along side him and destined to catch less (if what you say is true that Quan will catch 85 passes a year I doubt Fitz will catch close to that) why wouldnt Quan want more money?

I agree that Fitz wouldnt catch 85 a year. He just isnt the same type of WR. I see him being a 75 catch a year guy with about 1100 yards and double digit TDs.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

This is frickin ridiculous.

So, all you general managers out there are paying by the catch huh?

How about the fact that with Boldin in the line up the rest of the receivers became more productive. How about the fact Boldin is the best run blocking WR in the NFL. He is a leader, and is passionate about winning.

Next, if Boldin leaves I expect the next public outcry to be "Wah, wah, We don't have anyone to go over the middle." That is because that is Boldin's job.

I don't care if Boldin doesn't catch a pass next season. Because if it opens up Bryant Johnson, and Fitz to catch 200 between them THEN GREAT.

You build a team TO WIN FOOTBALL GAMES. Not to see who has the best stats at the end of the year.

Boldin is a HUGE part of this team, and this offense.

AND mind you that he is a special, special player.

1. He was an QB at Florida State, so he knows defenses better than any WR out there.

2. He is as big, and tough as a running back. That quick screen for 5 yards a pop is not a gimme. Bryant Johnson, nor Fitz is gonna juke there way through a defense.

3. He is a top ten NFL WR.

I find this thread to be utter madness. Any person who has complained about how this organization does business, and is also worrying about how much to pay Boldin, if at all, are the biggest hypocrites I have ever dealt with.

I don't think you hear Pittsburg fans worrying about how much they are gonna pay Big Ben eventually, I didn't hear a complaint from Atlanta when they signed Vick, and where was all the "we paid too much for TO" in Philly. THere wasn't any complaining cause that is what you do if you want to win in this league. You wanna play it cheap? FINE. Be a farm team for the rest of the NFL.

You want to have a good team, well eventually you got a pay for it. You are not going to win a Superbowl in the NFL with a 50 million dollar team. I am not saying you fork out cash left and right like the Skins, or the Falcons. But when a player proves (and if you don't think Boldin has proved he is worth a big contract, you have a very bad grasp on football) he is worth the money to keep him in your organization then you pay the man.

It really is not that hard. You have the oppourtunity to sign a guy before hits the market so that other team (who have more money than we do to offer higher bonuses) doesn't steal them away.

 

[Faithful]

Stop playing it cheap and pay the man. This is the NFL not some NYC company and not Madden 2004.