Boldin and the domino effect

[LVCARDFREAK]

Stop playing it cheap and pay the man. This is the NFL not some NYC company and not Madden 2004.

Thats all well and good, but there is a small thing in the NFL called the salary cap

 

[kerouac9]

1. He was an QB at Florida State, so he knows defenses better than any WR out there.

2. He is as big, and tough as a running back. That quick screen for 5 yards a pop is not a gimme. Bryant Johnson, nor Fitz is gonna juke there way through a defense.

3. He is a top ten NFL WR.

Ugh. Do you know anything? Goodness' sakes.

1. Hines Ward, Antwaan Randle El, and Ronald Curry are all WRs that had more time under center than Anquan in college. All of them are special at reading defenses and finding the soft spots in zones. Also, all of them caught more TD passes than Anquan did this season.

2. Anquan Boldin is the fifth-largest WR on the roster. When was the last time that quick-screen was thrown to Anquan? All the ones I saw were going to Fitz, with Anquan blocking (the one time I remember #80 blocking was a disaster). Q is a great blocker, but (1) he's not the best in the league at it (Hines Ward is--still) and (2) that doesn't make him a top 10 receiver, anyway.

3. Prove it. Anquan was 30th in the NFL in yards per game this season. His DPAR at FootballOutsiders.com was in the 60s or 70s. His rookie season, Anquan didn't crack the top 10 in those rankings.

Again, Anquan is a great complementary player, but you can't run an offense or a passing game around him.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Again, Anquan is a great complementary player, but you can't run an offense or a passing game around him.

Complementary!? Are you feeling okay today K9?

 

[kerouac9]

Complementary!? Are you feeling okay today K9?

This has been my take since this time last season, when 3/4 of the board was ready to back the Brinks truck up into Anquan's driveway. Anquan meant a lot to this franchise and its fans last year, but this season he was pretty average for a starting WR.

There are WRs that you can build your team and offense around: Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison, Steve Smith, Torry Holt. Players that teams have to double every play and always know where they are on the field. They do 40% of their damage before the ball is even in the air. Anquan isn't one of those players.

I don't even think that Anquan is in the second tier of WRs. Guys like Javon Walker, Joe Horn, Eric Moulds, Hines Ward, Santana Moss, Darrell Jackson, and Rod Smith. Guys that DCs don't stay up at night worrying about, but can gouge you and win the occaisional game for you if you forget about them, and sometimes even if you don't.

If Anquan can only be most effective out of the slot, let him leave as a free agent when his contract is up. That's what third-round guys like Josh Reed and Antwaan Randle El are for. Let someone else overpay for them. Check out FootballOutsiders.com's rankings of WRs in 2004 and 2003, and you'll see Anquan's name far down the list. The guy gets a lot of chances, and makes the most of them, but the conventional wisdom that Anquan gets all these first downs and is the man that moves the chains is pretty unfounded.

And he still doesn't score enough TDs.

 

[Russ Smith]

This has been my take since this time last season, when 3/4 of the board was ready to back the Brinks truck up into Anquan's driveway. Anquan meant a lot to this franchise and its fans last year, but this season he was pretty average for a starting WR.

There are WRs that you can build your team and offense around: Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison, Steve Smith, Torry Holt. Players that teams have to double every play and always know where they are on the field. They do 40% of their damage before the ball is even in the air. Anquan isn't one of those players.

I don't even think that Anquan is in the second tier of WRs. Guys like Javon Walker, Joe Horn, Eric Moulds, Hines Ward, Santana Moss, Darrell Jackson, and Rod Smith. Guys that DCs don't stay up at night worrying about, but can gouge you and win the occaisional game for you if you forget about them, and sometimes even if you don't.

If Anquan can only be most effective out of the slot, let him leave as a free agent when his contract is up. That's what third-round guys like Josh Reed and Antwaan Randle El are for. Let someone else overpay for them. Check out FootballOutsiders.com's rankings of WRs in 2004 and 2003, and you'll see Anquan's name far down the list. The guy gets a lot of chances, and makes the most of them, but the conventional wisdom that Anquan gets all these first downs and is the man that moves the chains is pretty unfounded.

And he still doesn't score enough TDs.

Smith has 10 TD's in 47 games, Quan has 9 in 26, so what is Smith doing on your list of guys you build around? He's had one great year, not as good as QUan's good year(less catches, less TD's less yardage, less YPC). Admitted he was on a great team and his catches came in wins not losses, but again it wasn't Quan's fault we won 4 games in 2003. Also Smith is coming off a serious injury, and has only played 1 full season in his 4 missing games to injury in each of the other 3.

I would think Walker would be on your list before Smith, had better numbers this year across the board than Smith. Even if you adjust for this year being a huge passing year, he's still better than Smith.

I agree that he's not fast and as you say doesn't do his damage before the ball is thrown, but the stuff about first downs is not true. Quan has started 2 less games than SMith , and played in TWENTY ONE less games than Smith, yet he has 94 career first down catches, Smith has 93. Even with this years knee injury, Josh Mccown induced low YPC number his career YPC is higher than Smith's was in 2003 and is just about a yard below Smiths' overall career mark. Smith is a much better kick returner but if we're talking about strictly WR's I don't see how you can knock Quan and praise Smith.

I don't think Quan should get Fitz money but then i don't think FITZ should get Fitz money. The big problem I have is I don't really know what Fitz money is his contract is so complex I have no idea what he's really going to make.

 

[Russ Smith]

Oops, meant to add, if your point on first downs is you only get one for a 50 yard TD catch wheras Quan will get 3 on a 50 yard TD drive, that point is lost by simply looking at the YPC numbers. Smith gets more long TD's but not that much, he has 8 40 yard plus catches in his 47 game career, Quan had 6 last season in 16 games.

 

[kerouac9]

Oops, meant to add, if your point on first downs is you only get one for a 50 yard TD catch wheras Quan will get 3 on a 50 yard TD drive, that point is lost by simply looking at the YPC numbers. Smith gets more long TD's but not that much, he has 8 40 yard plus catches in his 47 game career, Quan had 6 last season in 16 games.

Steve Smith was a little borderline, I agree, but his whole game is speed, and I think that the Carolina offense really, really struggled when he went down. Mushim Muhammad had to come back from the grave to save their season with a string of superhuman performances. He's probably more of that second-tier, but it's borderline.

Again, I think that if Quan's contributions as a chain-mover were true, they'd show up in his DPAR (72) or DVOA (72) rankings. They don't. Quan got A TON of chances last season. He made the most of them. He got fewer chances this season, and did basically the same. This is like arguing about Marcel Shipp not being very good. Take all the stats that you like, but 0 TDs are 0 TDs, and 1 TD in 60-odd catches is 1 TD. If Anquan needs pinpoint Jeff Blake accuracy to succeed (for YAC purposes), is he really a Top 10 NFL WR?

According to the Outsiders, Anquan only had 2/3 the number of passes thrown to him this season (105) as he did last season (165). He caught a fewer number of those balls, and didn't score as many touchdowns, despite a slightly more efficient offense.

Add that to the fact that Anquan's abilities (getting off the jam, being physical with corners) are reduced in importance by the new enforcement rules, and you have to wonder if he's really that much more valuable than a guy like Bobby Engram, who had twice the number of TDs in half the number of attempts and had a higher catch %, as well as nearly as many total yards.

 

[kerouac9]

Fyi

Players that had more passes thrown to them than Anquan Boldin in 2003 (165):

Torry Holt: 183 (12 TDs)
Randy Moss: 172 (18 TDs)

Anquan had more balls thrown to him last year than Marvin Harrison, but a number of players (besides Harrison) notched 10 or more TDs in fewer chances, like Chad Johnson (11 in 154), Hines Ward (10 in 156), Santana Moss (11 in an astounding 117), Chris Chambers (12 in 130), Joe Horn (10 in 130).

 

[Russ Smith]

Again, I think that if Quan's contributions as a chain-mover were true, they'd show up in his DPAR (72) or DVOA (72) rankings. They don't. Quan got A TON of chances last season. He made the most of them. He got fewer chances this season, and did basically the same. This is like arguing about Marcel Shipp not being very good. Take all the stats that you like, but 0 TDs are 0 TDs, and 1 TD in 60-odd catches is 1 TD. If Anquan needs pinpoint Jeff Blake accuracy to succeed (for YAC purposes), is he really a Top 10 NFL WR?
.

But you're looking at a guy who was clearly playing well below 100%. now if what we saw this year is Quan from now on, I agree with you, but I don't think there's any reason to think that, the surgery he had this year wasn't really the kind you expect to limit a player permanently.

I would assume his performance will improve next year.

he was also playing a new position, one that took away some of his strengths, playing with a new QB, and playing in an offense designed to feature Larry Fitzgerald. Quan had EIGHT TD catches in his only healthy year. You have to consider circumstances too.

For example, would you still consider Portis an elite RB? Afterall his DVOA rank is 40th, hell his teammate Betts is 20th, Lamont Jordan is 1st. As you can see the DVOA numbers are less accurate for players who didn't play a full season. Quan played enough that his are more accurate than Jordan or Betts but the point is Portis was 6th last year(Onterrio Smith 1st) and 40th this year. he didn't get any worse, he simply went from one of the best running situations in football, to one of the worst. If they trade Portis back to Denver next season, he'll be right back up there at the top.

If Quan ever gets to play with a real NFL starting QB, and IF he can stay healthy, his numbers will get a lot better than they were this year.

you're using the DVOA numbers for Quan but his DPAR numbers are better, he was 15th last year and 68th this year.

I agree with you Quan is not a top 5 Wr like some folks seem to think, but his numbers in 2003 even using football outsiders were MUCH better than Fitz in 2004 and 2004 was a huge year for passing offense. So if he's using Fitz' contract as a model, unfortunately for graves and Bidwill he matches up very well.

 

[Russ Smith]

Players that had more passes thrown to them than Anquan Boldin in 2003 (165):

Torry Holt: 183 (12 TDs)
Randy Moss: 172 (18 TDs)

Anquan had more balls thrown to him last year than Marvin Harrison, but a number of players (besides Harrison) notched 10 or more TDs in fewer chances, like Chad Johnson (11 in 154), Hines Ward (10 in 156), Santana Moss (11 in an astounding 117), Chris Chambers (12 in 130), Joe Horn (10 in 130).

To me that number is only important if you believe that by throwing the ball that much to Quan, we were HURTING the overall scoring offense by denying others more passes. Anybody really believe we'd have scored more in 2003 by throwing the ball to Gilmore and Bryant Johnson more? Quan scored a TD every 2 games, the other guys had a rate higher than that but TD per catch just doesn't seem all that insightful to me. Do you think Patrick Hape is the best TE in football? he had 4 td's this year, on 8 catches.

AS the team around Quan gets better, I would expect the attempts to him to come down, and the success % to go up. When teams can't afford to key on Quan, he'll get open easier. We have ample proof of this just go back to the ONE game in 2003 where he wasn't keyed on, Detroit, 10 catches 217 yards and 2 TDs.

I'm not arguing he's better than Moss, but his rookie year was MUCH better than Fitz' and he's making far less money.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

But you're looking at a guy who was clearly playing well below 100%. now if what we saw this year is Quan from now on, I agree with you, but I don't think there's any reason to think that, the surgery he had this year wasn't really the kind you expect to limit a player permanently.

I would assume his performance will improve next year.

he was also playing a new position, one that took away some of his strengths, playing with a new QB, and playing in an offense designed to feature Larry Fitzgerald. Quan had EIGHT TD catches in his only healthy year. You have to consider circumstances too.

For example, would you still consider Portis an elite RB? Afterall his DVOA rank is 40th, hell his teammate Betts is 20th, Lamont Jordan is 1st. As you can see the DVOA numbers are less accurate for players who didn't play a full season. Quan played enough that his are more accurate than Jordan or Betts but the point is Portis was 6th last year(Onterrio Smith 1st) and 40th this year. he didn't get any worse, he simply went from one of the best running situations in football, to one of the worst. If they trade Portis back to Denver next season, he'll be right back up there at the top.

If Quan ever gets to play with a real NFL starting QB, and IF he can stay healthy, his numbers will get a lot better than they were this year.

you're using the DVOA numbers for Quan but his DPAR numbers are better, he was 15th last year and 68th this year.

I agree with you Quan is not a top 5 Wr like some folks seem to think, but his numbers in 2003 even using football outsiders were MUCH better than Fitz in 2004 and 2004 was a huge year for passing offense. So if he's using Fitz' contract as a model, unfortunately for graves and Bidwill he matches up very well.

Excellent point Russ, once again proving the stats can be misleading. All I know is, every game that Anquan has played, I have begged for them to throw him the ball because he is essentially unguardable. I don't know how many of the games you have watched Kerouac, but every game he makes catches in horrible traffic, with Josh throwing the ball all over the place. He is definitely one of the best in the league at using his body to shield against defenders, and with a better QB, and being healthy, I believe he is a top tier wr.

 

[kerouac9]

But you're looking at a guy who was clearly playing well below 100%. now if what we saw this year is Quan from now on, I agree with you, but I don't think there's any reason to think that, the surgery he had this year wasn't really the kind you expect to limit a player permanently.

I would assume his performance will improve next year.

he was also playing a new position, one that took away some of his strengths, playing with a new QB, and playing in an offense designed to feature Larry Fitzgerald. Quan had EIGHT TD catches in his only healthy year. You have to consider circumstances too.

For example, would you still consider Portis an elite RB? Afterall his DVOA rank is 40th, hell his teammate Betts is 20th, Lamont Jordan is 1st. As you can see the DVOA numbers are less accurate for players who didn't play a full season. Quan played enough that his are more accurate than Jordan or Betts but the point is Portis was 6th last year(Onterrio Smith 1st) and 40th this year. he didn't get any worse, he simply went from one of the best running situations in football, to one of the worst. If they trade Portis back to Denver next season, he'll be right back up there at the top.

If Quan ever gets to play with a real NFL starting QB, and IF he can stay healthy, his numbers will get a lot better than they were this year.

you're using the DVOA numbers for Quan but his DPAR numbers are better, he was 15th last year and 68th this year.

I agree with you Quan is not a top 5 Wr like some folks seem to think, but his numbers in 2003 even using football outsiders were MUCH better than Fitz in 2004 and 2004 was a huge year for passing offense. So if he's using Fitz' contract as a model, unfortunately for graves and Bidwill he matches up very well.

1) Do I still consider Clinton Portis to be an elite runningback?

Not really. His numbers were inflated coming out of Denver, anyway. Inflated because he got to play against porous divisional run defenses, and by having a cheating O-line that EVERYONE runs well behind. Do I still think that he's one of the Top 15 backs in the NFL? Yeah, but I'd still take Shaun Alexander, Ladianian Tomlinson, Jamal Lewis, etc., ahead of him.

2) Look at the numbers for Bobby Engram the last two seasons. They're ridiculous. There's maybe the most underrated WR in the NFL today. No one does more with less. His catch % is unbeliveable.

3) Quan had 8 TD catches in an offense that, when it got in the red zone, would either hand it off to Emmitt or huck it to Quan. It's not like there were other options. Now, Quan's rarely going to get a sniff in the red zone, especially if Bryant Johnson continues to develop physically and mentally.

4) Again, Quan got more chances than all but two players in 2003 to make plays. This offense is never going to be as one-dimensional as it was in 2003, ever. Say what you like about Sully, but his clueless offensive philosophy seemed to be "if you're going to throw it, throw it to #81."

To me that number is only important if you believe that by throwing the ball that much to Quan, we were HURTING the overall scoring offense by denying others more passes. Anybody really believe we'd have scored more in 2003 by throwing the ball to Gilmore and Bryant Johnson more? Quan scored a TD every 2 games, the other guys had a rate higher than that but TD per catch just doesn't seem all that insightful to me. Do you think Patrick Hape is the best TE in football? he had 4 td's this year, on 8 catches.

AS the team around Quan gets better, I would expect the attempts to him to come down, and the success % to go up. When teams can't afford to key on Quan, he'll get open easier. We have ample proof of this just go back to the ONE game in 2003 where he wasn't keyed on, Detroit, 10 catches 217 yards and 2 TDs.

I'm not arguing he's better than Moss, but his rookie year was MUCH better than Fitz' and he's making far less money.

It's funny that it's you and I that always end up arguing about this, becuse I think that we're closer together on this than anyone else.

You're obviously comparing apples to oranges between every-down WRs and Patrick freaking Hape. I'm not going engage you on something so irrelevant. What I'm going to reiterate is that among players that got so much fewer chances (like Santana Moss), Anquan did not perform as well (and remember that Vinny played a lot of those games under center, not Pennington) at getting the ball into the end zone, which Green said was the most important thing for an offensive player to do.

I don't see any evidence that justifies the response that even though Anquan's chances are going to go down, he's going to be more successful. If anything, it's going to limit the number of "big plays" that he can have. Teams didn't "key in" on Anquan this season; they were worried about Fitz. I'd argue that teams didn't "key in" on Anquan last season, because you didn't beat the Arizona Cardinals by stopping the pass. DCs don't worry about Anquan Boldin when they're watching film. They just don't. Anquan will only be as good as the number of balls that come his way. Despite the hype, Anquan wasn't particularly special in his catch % this year or last.

You could just as easily argue that Fitz (who also wasn't at 100%, if that's going to be an excuse that you want to run with) didn't have Jeff Blake getting him the ball in stride 165 times as a rookie, either. And how about this: Larry Fitzgerald only had 12 more passes thrown to him this season than Anquan did (116). His catch % was lower, but his TDs were much, much higher.

Green said it when they drafted Fitz: the point of the WR position is to score TDs. That's Fitz's business. To this point, it has not been Anquan's. I think that Anquan should get paid as one of the best 15 WRs in football. He should get paid like Hines Ward has on his second contract. He does not deserve Chad Johnson money, because he's nowhere near as good as Chad Johnson.

 

[kerouac9]

Excellent point Russ, once again proving the stats can be misleading. All I know is, every game that Anquan has played, I have begged for them to throw him the ball because he is essentially unguardable. I don't know how many of the games you have watched Kerouac, but every game he makes catches in horrible traffic, with Josh throwing the ball all over the place. He is definitely one of the best in the league at using his body to shield against defenders, and with a better QB, and being healthy, I believe he is a top tier wr.

I've watched almost all of the games, ASU. But all the WRs on the team were catching the ball under the same circumstances, and they're all bunched together in the ranks. If Anquan was so much better, why wasn't there any separation between him and the other two?

I'm glad that you "believe" that Q is a top-tier WR. I just don't think that faith is good enough to hammer our cap for the next five years or so.

 

[kerouac9]

Randy Moss scored 13 TDs on only 89 passes this year. He's unbelieveable.

 

[Russ Smith]

Just to be clear, Im not bashing K9 I agree with a lot of what he's saying and I really like football outsiders.

I am saying this has the potential to be like an arbitrartion hearing in baseball where both sides come in armed with stats to prove the other side wrong.

The Cards will say you have played in 26 NFL games, and the team record is 8-18 in those games. You have major surgery in college, you just had surgery again, you weren't fast to begin with. We can't pay you what we pay Larry.

Rosenhaus will say in an offense built around Larry, with Quan not healthy, he caught nearly as many balls. your own head coach said repeatedly he couldn't really judge the offense until Quan got back because he was so important. He's the heart and soul of your team and he makes less than Karl Williams. He's more valuable to you than he is to any other NFL team because of fan appeal, so you'll never get market value by trading him.

I just think there's very little reason to think trading Quan will help the Cards. I predicted it might happen as soon as he hired Rosenhaus, but not because I thought it would be a GOOD thing.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I've watched almost all of the games, ASU. But all the WRs on the team were catching the ball under the same circumstances, and they're all bunched together in the ranks. If Anquan was so much better, why wasn't there any separation between him and the other two?

I'm glad that you "believe" that Q is a top-tier WR. I just don't think that faith is good enough to hammer our cap for the next five years or so.

The name is Chris, believe it or not... Anquan is far superior to BJ in every facet of the game, I would consider Anquan and Larry to be pretty equal in terms of ability, although if I had a gun to my head, I would choose Anquan. Where ever did I perscribe giving him a top tier contract? I think Boldin can be a top tier reciever, but as much as it pains me to say it, with so much money invested in Larry, and with Anquan's knee issues, I am not sure if I would give him a monster contract. It's a very tough issue, and one I am glad to not decide.

 

[Russ Smith]

Randy Moss scored 13 TDs on only 89 passes this year. He's unbelieveable.

I agree and obviously Hape was a strawman just to make sure you had a "line" at which you wouldn't cross on the TD's per catch thing, obviously you do which is good.

My point about Quan being better with less is sort of comparable to a basketball player who on a bad team puts up lots of PPG but shoots a terrible %. with better surrounding talent, his PPG drops, but his FG% and assist per game numbers go up.

I think the same can be said of Quan, this year Quan was never healthy, he was IMHO much more hampered than Fitz was, there were plays where Quan literally couldn't jump for a ball.

But in 2003 every team we played after Detroit had seen that game and had their pass defense set up for him, Quan didn't get very much single coverage, he was constantly hit going over the middle.

As to the point about Quan getting Blake and not Josh, a less than 100% Quan put up nearly the same numbers as Fitz this year with the same players. The main difference was TD's. Again this offense is designed to get TD passes to Fitz. How many trick plays did we run this year for Quan compared to Fitz? We threw more jumpballs to Fitz this year than we ever threw to Quan in 2003. Green picked Fitz because of the TD I agree with you, but a guy like Quan will HELP Fitz get more TD's because he'll extend drives and get us into "jump ball" territory.

Off tangent but it sounds like you agree with me that if we'd kept Blake this year he'd have ultimately won the job and we'd have been a better passing team? NOt saying he was the missing link for the team or anything but I do think he got an unfair rap here I shudder to think what Josh or even Plummer would have done in 2003 with a rookie OC, a brand new offense, and brand new WR's who had to be told where to line up all the time, all the while waiting for the OC to signal the play in before the play clock expired.

Long term Blake wasn't the answer but I'd bet anything in a "fair fight" he'd have won the QB job this year. He just isn't a Green player, Denny correctly determined he wasn't going to buy in.

 

[Russ Smith]

Just for kicks and because it's slow as hell at work.

In 2003 the cards offense scored a whopping 23 TD's, 18 passing 5 rushing(god we were bad). So Quan scored 35% of our TD's. The Rams scored 42 TD's, so Holt's 12 were 29% of his teams. Harrison had 10 out of 45 Colts TD's or 22%. Moss had 17 out of 47 or 36%, so far he's the only #1 WR I've found with a higher % than Quan had.

This year Fitz had 8 of 29 or 28%.

That's another argument I'd use if I were Rosenhaus although obviously his % this year will be much lower.

 

[john h]

Boldin and the domino effect.....part II,

The NFL is going to have to get involved with this type of stuff......otherwise things are going to get way out of control. My suggestion:

a) the league disallows contract hold outs.......for every day a player holds out, it costs him part of his salary and another day gets added to the length of the contarct at the other end. In other words.......no ticky, no laundry.

I have a feeling their is something in the U.S. Constitution one way or the other that would prohibit this. You can bet the players union would be all over it in a NY minute.

 

[john h]

Spanky would you also suggest that the NFL forbid cutting players with years left on their signed contract?

It's a 2 way street. People keep saying Quan signed the contract it's his fault if he's not happy. That's completely untrue. The NFL draft determines your slot, your slot determines your pay. Quan couldn't have said you know I really am better than Bryant Johnson I want more than him, he'd have never signed if he did that. He couldn't have said 4 years at this price is too long give me a 2 year deal, teams don't do that with high picks the contracts are almost always 4 or 5 years.

Quan had virtually NO option but to sign the deal he did and move forward. The Cards can structure the contract so that if quan's knees are a problem, we're not killed, we don't have to give him 20 million upfront. Fitz' deal is loaded with incentives, we can do that with Quan's too, we won't, too much competition would be a morale issue, but we could do it.

Everyone complains about the player wanting a new deal but has no problem with the team dumping the player under contract, we have entire threads about which players under contract we should cut.

I rather imagine our starting center last year was not real pleased when he got the ax. Management can also be a---- when they chose.

 

[john h]

Sign or trade him before the draft because I love Mike Williams and the super stud from Mich. and really hate unhappy players on my team.Thank God I talked Santa into a#11 instead of a#81.

He is an outstanding receiver and it does not much make sense to cut/trade him just to draft another receiver when we have more important positions to fill. If he can be traded for a position player we need such as a RB, OL,etc and one of equal value then I say go for it but clearly not to use a draft slot for another receiver.

 

[john h]

You would have to show them the money, too. Quan deserves the quan, I hope the deal gets done. If we dont pay him, someone else will. I had a feeling as soon as the numbers came out on Fitz's contract that this situation would rear its ugly head.

If people could see the people we might not get as a result of giving him the big $ then they might not be so quick to say give him what he wants. There are limits no matter who you are as to what you can give. What if meant say losing Berry or not signing a Berry? That is just an example to put this in perspective. I hope we keep him but not at any price. I sure do not like him coming out and saying publicaly he is going to hold out.

 

[john h]

Give him a very good siging bonus, make the rest of his contract based on the healthy knee situation. In other words, if it's an injury other than the knee-the Cards take care of him, if it's the knee again, we still take care of him but at a lower price. I doubt he'd go for that.
Me personally, I think the guy is worth the money. I also think it's just matter of being shown the team knows his value and respects that.
I don't think he'll hold out, and i believe if his guaranteed money is reasonable, he'll sign quickly. That,and the conditions surrounding it, will be the issue.

I do not think it is a matter of what he is worth on the open market but what is he worth to the Cards. If you sign him to big $ their will be consequences such as not signing other players. Management just has to decide what is more important. Keeping Quan or missing out on some other players in FA they need. Qual may well be worth much more to a team in bad need of a good receiver. We can actually afford to lose one of our receivers if we can fill one of those critical needs with a good player like signing a Berry quality at RB or on the OL. Decision time is upon us. Someone said he may be angling for a trade and is pissed. I would not disagree with that. If that is so they should move on it now so that he does not muddle up next season. They should sit down with him and his agent and ask point blank what do they really want? Do not ***** foot around on this.

 

[john h]

Quan deserves as much as Fitz. They must have seen this coming when they paid Fitzgerald what they did. They had to pay him what they did because they made him the #3 pick in the draft. I still like the pick, but it's too bad that top 5 money causes such problems.

Unfortunately people do not necessarily get what they think they are worth. They usually get what the team can afford based on the teams needs and budget. Fair does not enter into this business.

 

[Russ Smith]

I do not think it is a matter of what he is worth on the open market but what is he worth to the Cards. If you sign him to big $ their will be consequences such as not signing other players. Management just has to decide what is more important. Keeping Quan or missing out on some other players in FA they need. Qual may well be worth much more to a team in bad need of a good receiver. We can actually afford to lose one of our receivers if we can fill one of those critical needs with a good player like signing a Berry quality at RB or on the OL. Decision time is upon us. Someone said he may be angling for a trade and is pissed. I would not disagree with that. If that is so they should move on it now so that he does not muddle up next season. They should sit down with him and his agent and ask point blank what do they really want? Do not ***** foot around on this.

That works both ways though John.

If we don't sign Quan to a better deal and instead trade him over this, we send a message. That message may stop us from signing other players either in FA or our own players.

There's good reasons on both sides, it's not a cut and dried thing at all. If Quan wants Moss money to report, make him sit or trade him he's simply not worth that, but if he wants FAIR pay, by all means he deserves it. Just hard to determine exactly what that is.