Bored With T-Mac and Kobe

[George O'Brien]

I'm bored with the T-Mac and Kobe discussions. The chances of either, much less both, coming to the Suns is incredibly remote. I don't think Orlando can afford to trade T-Mac for what the Suns can afford to offer and I can't see the Suns signing Kobe before the trial is completed (LA Times says late Aug at the earliest). BTW, I don't expect the Suns to get Shaq either.

None of the discussions about either guy is new. So while I disagree with Yuma about how interesting the summer for the Suns will be, I am bored with T-Mac and Kobe.

What do the Suns do when it is obvious that neither guy is come to Phoenix?

Here are some of the things I'm more interested in:

1. Can the Suns get the Bobcats to Eisley by using their lotter pick?
2. Should the Suns encourage the Bobcats to take White?
3. If the Bobcats are unwilling to take White without a pick, should they include the lottery pick?
4. If the Suns lose White but keep their lottery pick, who should they take?
5. If the Bobcats don't take White, does that change who the Suns should take with their lottery pick?
6. If the Suns move White but keep their lottery pick, who should they look at for FA help if Kobe is not available?
7. If the Suns do not move White, what should their FA priorities be?
8. If the Suns use their lottery pick to move Eisley and Kobe is not available, how does THAT change the Suns FA shopping list?
9. How does the exact level of the salary cap effect each of these options?

 

[elindholm]

Haven't those other nine topics all been discussed to death too?

If you find a thread boring, you don't have to read it. I don't think you'd take it too kindly if someone came out and labeled your posts "boring."

 

[F-Dog]

I'm bored with talk about getting rid of the lottery pick.


Given the team's drafting skills and the type of draft this is, the Suns should land a future stud at #7.

 

[George O'Brien]

Haven't those other nine topics all been discussed to death too?

If you find a thread boring, you don't have to read it. I don't think you'd take it too kindly if someone came out and labeled your posts "boring."

But you have.

I'm don't really think those topics have been "discussed to death" because I still don't feel I have an adequate answer to these questions. What happens is that every discussion gets turned into another Kobe and T-Mac deal.

For example, Sir Stephan has talked about finding role players to give the Suns more depth. Yet no one follows up on who would be a good fit.

 

[khilari]

I don't think that we should mortgage our future with trading all the picks in order to clear cap room for Kobe. They gave 3 picks to Utah to take Googs contract. I just think that we should draft well and sign some mid level FA to add depth to this team and see what happens.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I don't think that we should mortgage our future with trading all the picks in order to clear cap room for Kobe. They gave 3 picks to Utah to take Googs contract. I just think that we should draft well and sign some mid level FA to add depth to this team and see what happens.

First off, they traded 2 picks to Utah (One being protected till 2009ish).

Secondly, you cannot claim a team is "mortgaging their future" by signing a top 5 player, that is in his mid 20s. In fact, that is called "creating a future". And this trial stuff is irrelevent. If he is convicted, then his contract is voided if the suns wish it. It will come off the cap at the end of the season, just like it never happened.


The suns always draft well, be you also have to be realistic the calibur of player we can get at certain parts of the draft. If we fall in the 7-8 range, we will most likely take a player that won't do anything for at least 2 years, not knowing how they will turn out.

The signing mid level FAs to add depth is a nice concept, but not relevent for this team. This team needs depth, and the best way to create it is by signing some players who should be starters. I am sorry, but at his point, Barbosa, Voskuhl, Lampe, CJ, Zarko should NEVER start for a team. By picking up Kobe, we are able to move JJ to the point, and have a somewhat legit starting unit.

The suns problem is they have a ton of young role players, and no superstar. BTW, Amare is not a superstar yet

 

[Yuma]

George, this off season may be IMPORTANT to the Suns, but it is UNINTERESTING!! I think most guys mistake the two when I talk about how boring it is!

Let's say you are right, we don't get either Kobe or TMac. Then is it that important to get UNDER the cap by X amount of dollars? Why not let White play his contract out, since I think he's on the last year anyway. Maybe you get rid of Eisley, but the team won't be killed by his salary in the next two years. Also, who is out there in free agency that mandates we have to get way UNDER the cap if we don't get TMac or Kobe? It may be better to keep the picks and add talent from the draft at a cheaper price than to go free agency if there isn't anyone who will really help us anyway.

Even after the above conjecture, WHO CARES? The rookies in this draft, or mid-level free agents don't exactly inspire a lot of hoopla. Vujanic is about the most exciting acquisition I see us making so far. I think he could be a good 2 guard scorer off the bench. We could use a gunslinger who can shoot well coming off the bench. That would make me somewhat interested in the moves we may make. However, that 10,000 LB. Gorilla, a lack of rebounding and defense in the middle of our team tempers my excitement. Any way to really fix that weak spot on our team this offseason? (It IS the offseason for the Suns!)

The best thing we could do is to make Amare a top level defender this offseason with a good mid range jumper, too. (Maybe have him work out with Kevin Garnette this summer?) Go to OZ and get JJ (and Zarko) some courage/confidence. Make Barbosa spend the summer learning from KJ. Have Lampe and Voskuhl spend time with Bill Russell learning to box out and rebound!! Send Casey Jacobson to a speed athletics school! (Or put a rocket in some orifice to speed him up from his Danny Ainge pace!) Top that all off with a 50% price reduction on tickets to Suns games!

Now that would make me excited about next season!

 

[elindholm]

Haven't those other nine topics all been discussed to death too?

If you find a thread boring, you don't have to read it. I don't think you'd take it too kindly if someone came out and labeled your posts "boring."

But you have.

It's true that I wrote something along those lines, and you responded by reading me the riot act, calling me all sorts of names in an astonisingly patronizing post.

So my point stands: You didn't like it. I've agreed to play by your rules, but you should be willing to follow them yourself.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm bored with the T-Mac and Kobe discussions. The chances of either, much less both, coming to the Suns is incredibly remote. I don't think Orlando can afford to trade T-Mac for what the Suns can afford to offer and I can't see the Suns signing Kobe before the trial is completed (LA Times says late Aug at the earliest). BTW, I don't expect the Suns to get Shaq either.

But YOU'RE the one who starts a majority of those threads!!

Personally, if you're tired of seeing them, I don't understand why you continue to post on them...

 

[Chaplin]

I don't think that we should mortgage our future with trading all the picks in order to clear cap room for Kobe. They gave 3 picks to Utah to take Googs contract. I just think that we should draft well and sign some mid level FA to add depth to this team and see what happens.

Yeah, because as we all know, picks (in our case, a mid-first and a late-first) will always produce superstars.

I find it funny how it's called "mortgaging our future" when trading draft picks, but when signing the best shooting guard in the NBA at age 24 it's a waste. Isn't signing one of the best players at such a young age be considered "BOLSTERING our future"???

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Yeah, because as we all know, picks (in our case, a mid-first and a late-first) will always produce superstars.

I find it funny how it's called "mortgaging our future" when trading draft picks, but when signing the best shooting guard in the NBA at age 24 it's a waste. Isn't signing one of the best players at such a young age be considered "BOLSTERING our future"???

Stop being my damn doppleganger!

 

[ASUCHRIS]

It is amazing how many of these threads turn into silly personal attacks, this board has way too much of it....

 

[George O'Brien]

I guess I hit a sore nerve. Sorry if I offended anyone. That wasn't my purpose. I really am interested in learning more about who if anybody is available through free agency besides Kobe, Camby, Dampier, and Okur.

Let me give an exampl. I honestly don't know much about guys like Foyle and Etan Thomas; but if the Suns move White they will need to find someone who can fill in. Would these guys be useful, or should the Suns look elsewhere?

As for my initiation of threads, if that includes posting articles about Kobe and the Lakers - then I plead guilty. I don't post every Kobe article, just ones that have something new (at least to me). So maybe it's not the topics, just the lack of new information.

 

[sly fly]

I guess I hit a sore nerve. Sorry if I offended anyone. That wasn't my purpose. I really am interested in learning more about who if anybody is available through free agency besides Kobe, Camby, Dampier, and Okur.

Let me give an exampl. I honestly don't know much about guys like Foyle and Etan Thomas; but if the Suns move White they will need to find someone who can fill in. Would these guys be useful, or should the Suns look elsewhere?
QUOTE]

Don't know about you, but we've been beating a dead horse since mid-season.

We all know what needs to happen. And, there are only x number of scenarios that can play out through free agency or the draft. That being said...

... There is always room for movement between teams. I'm surprised no one really brings up trade scenarios that could net PHX an impact player we haven't thought about.

The Kidd trade for Finley came out of nowhere. Same with Barkley. Even Kidd for Marbury was unheard of. It's not out of the realm of possibility that something like this could happen near draft day.

Who are the player that PHX could or should target?

- Samuel Dalembert would look good next to Amare.
- Could we steal Chris Webber from SAC?
- Michael Finley? Dirk Nowitzki (reach)?
- Paul Pierce?
- Ray Allen?
- Tyson Chandler?
- Jamal Crawford?
- Zach Randolph?
- Pau Gasol?

Just throwing some names out... better than talking about Howard Freakin' Eisley and his salary #.

 

[George O'Brien]

Who are the player that PHX could or should target?

- Samuel Dalembert would look good next to Amare.
- Could we steal Chris Webber from SAC?
- Michael Finley? Dirk Nowitzki (reach)?
- Paul Pierce?
- Ray Allen?
- Tyson Chandler?
- Jamal Crawford?
- Zach Randolph?
- Pau Gasol?

Interesting list. Here are my thoughts:

Dalembert is the only one on this list I would do an "anybody but Amare" deal for. The Sixers would be crazy to trade him but why not ask? (Probably would mean taking some really bad contracts in the bargain.

Webber is way too expensive. $17.5 million next year (four more years on his contract)

Dirk couldn't defend his grandmother.

Finley is 31 and scheduled to make $14.6 million next season (he has four more years of a max contract.

Paul Pierce would be a great addition although his shooting has certainly declined as the talent level of his team has gone down. Ainge has made some pretty weird trades, but PP is extraordinarily popular in Boston.

I like Ray Allen but not many other people on this board do. Considering he is making $14.6 next year, the last year on his contract, I'm not sure how I would even approach the Sonics. They certainly wouldn't want Marion because they already have Lewis. (It is not impossible that next summer Kobe, T-Mac and Allen would all be free agents).

Chandler is a classic "crap shoot". He could turn into a really good player or turn into a chronic IR candidate. Chicago is definitely shopping him, but I would not give up a core player for him. He will get $4.8 million this summer, but I can't see the Bulls doing a cap dump that does not include Robinson or Williams.

Crawford is expected to be a "hot commodity" this summer, especially after having that huge game where he scored over 50 points. I'd be concerned about his 38.6% shooting. The weird part is that if Eisley played the same number of minutes as Crawford, the numbers would not be terribly different.

Crawford
PPG 17.3
RPG 3.5
APG 5.1
SPG 1.39
BPG 0.36
FG% 0.386
FT% 0.833
3P% 0.317
MPG 35.1

Eisley (converted to 35.1 minutes)
PPG 11.161
RPG 3.073
APG 6.632
SPG 1.359
BPG 0.113
FG% 0.368
FT% 0.854
3P% 0.319

Crawford scored more because he shot more, but his shooting percentage was not hugely better than Eisley's (Eisley shot much better than Crawford in New York and worse in Phoenix). Of course Crawford is scheduled to make about 1/2 what Eisley makes.

Randolf is untouchable. However, Shareef Abdur-Rahim is on the final year of his contract $14.6 million and will be shopped. They might want to dump him to reduce their luxury tax bill. (It may no make much sense chemistry wise, but SAR is a very explosive scorer).

I've heard rumors to the effect that Gasol might on the block, but only for a major power player. Right now, he is the closest thing Memphis has to a "star" other than their coach. I can't see how he would be much help to the Suns nor do the Suns have much to offer they need in return.

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think of these guys.

 

[Errntknght]

Here are a few other things we might talk about.

1) If we get the #1 pick in the draft should be we keep the pick and take Okafor? Presumeably, we could give that pick to the Bobcats and unload Eisley, clearing enough space to pursue Kobe. Would anyone do that? Another possibility is that Orlando would trade Tmac for Okafor, Marion and throwins in a draft day deal. Any takers? What if Eisley was the throwin?

2) We get the #2 pick and, assuming Okafor goes number one, should we see how much ransom we can extract from Atlanta? Do they have anyone worth getting? If that pick would be enough to bribe Charlotte to take Eisley should we do it to pursue the Kobe fantasy? Any chance of using it to get McGrady?

3) What do we do if we get the #3 pick? Would it bribe the Bobcats to take Eisley? This is the best pick I could see the Suns giving away for a chance to pursue Kobe. Psychologically, giving up Okafor or Howard for the fairly remote chance of getting Kobe is very difficult... you might always be known as the GM who traded away a star for a fantasy.

4) How long after July 1 would we have an answer from Kobe? Is the assumption that the Suns will not pursue Kobe until his trial is concluded - I could see JC wanting to wait until Kobe was actually exonerated. It seems possible that the trial continuing after July 1, as appears likely now, that it gives the Lakers a big advantage in re-signing Kobe. For them to offer him a contract could be viewed as showing support their player while anyone else offering him a contract could be viewed as showing a willingness to have a possible criminal on the team. I really wouldn't be at all surprised that if the trial is in the middle and somewhat in doubt July 1 then Kobe will resign quickly.

 

[elindholm]

2) We get the #2 pick and, assuming Okafor goes number one, should we see how much ransom we can extract from Atlanta?

Anyone want Jason Terry? How about Eisley and Howard for Terry in a sign-and-trade? The Suns would still have all of their cap space, and Atlanta gets Howard instead of losing Terry for free.

3) ... Psychologically, giving up Okafor or Howard for the fairly remote chance of getting Kobe is very difficult... you might always be known as the GM who traded away a star for a fantasy.

My feeling about this hasn't changed. I think that the Suns will know, with a high degree of confidence, what Bryant is doing before they make any expansion-draft deals. Bryant will probably make up his mind for sure after the Lakers conclude their present postseason. If they lose to the Spurs, that's it; if they beat the Spurs, I think you can engrave the trophy. So even though the expansion draft is relatively soon, Bryant will have the information he needs to decide what he's doing.

I don't think the Suns will "gamble" by giving their pick away. They might, however, sell the pick with the understanding that there are many things they can do with the cap space. I'm just not worried at all about the Suns "gambling" on Bryant and losing out. They'll know what they're doing (in this case!).

 

[George O'Brien]

2) They'll know what they're doing (in this case!).

NOW you have faith in BC.

Seriously, I doubt that Kobe really knows what he is going to do. Unfortunately the Suns will need to make some key decisions before Kobe has to decide anything. If he's like me, he'll wait until the last minute to decide.

 

[PhxGametime]

I've thought about Jason Terry and Jamal Crawford myself - I don't know league like the rest of this board though (only watch Suns games). Terry has a long contract I believe though (extension) that he signed last year - if anyone has the #'s, I'd like to see length and year to year price.

Both players don't shoot great 3 PT percentages but average around 2 3PT/game. Decent stats, good size, and athleticism but on a roster with Barbosa and possibly Vujanic, playing time becomes issue.

Well wanted a trade so:

Draft rights to Milos Vujanic
Lottery Pick
Jahidi White

(young talented PG, Lottery pick, and soon to be cap space)

for

Samuel Dalembert
Aaron McKie

(talented young bigman and shooter - 44% 3PT)

76ers get rid of McKie's long contract.


Line-up:

Dalembert
Stoudemire
Marion
Johnson
Crawford

Barbosa
Lampe
Cabarkapa
McKie
Voskuhl
Jacobsen
Eisley

 

[George O'Brien]

I'd love to get Dalembert, but I think the Sixers will need a lot more. They are at $61 million for next year so getting rid of McKie ($5.5 million) does not even get them below the luxury tax level. They have a lot of ugly contracts they would be happy to unload, but I'm not excited about getting Robinson or McCulloch (unless I knew his injury would be declared permanent) or Coleman or Marc Jackson.