Boston Article

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
Kerouac is right in the money.It continues to amaze me that EVERY player who leaves the Cards is a cancer or has an attitude problem.Yet when we sign other teams cancers,ala Jeff Blake,they are the greatest signings in the world.

nobody is saying that every player that leaves is a problem but lets look at a notable few:

pittman

boston

jones

rice

swann

jenkins

are any of these guys going to produce this season?

maybe two. rice and boston and boston is already "questionable"

how long do you think it is until rice aka "supermouth" starts messing things up in tampa? I bet he starts tanking it on running plays this season. hes had enough pub to satisfy his ego for a while.

all the guys above left az on questionable terms, but are either out of football, causing problems with their teams, or are likely to be sub par performers. The cards HAVE been cleaning house to get rid of the mal contents, and I for one am glad.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Crimson Warrior

how long do you think it is until rice aka "supermouth" starts messing things up in tampa? I bet he starts tanking it on running plays this season. hes had enough pub to satisfy his ego for a while.

Look - I think Simeon Rice is a jackass like the rest of us - but to say you think he'll start tanking it just seems ridiculous to me. Now matter what kind of piece of crap or however big of a moron that guy is - I believe him when he says he wants to be the best - and he is in the perfect position to do so - Simeon is a born football player - playing on a great team where his mouth fits right in with the other loudmouths in Tampa - he's won his championship - but I don't think even that's as important to him as being recognized as THE BEST DE end in football and utlitmately making the Hall Of fame - he sued to talk about all that stuff even when he was here and producing double-digit sack numbers and winning Rookie of the Year honors.

Boston - who knows what his production will be this season - it'll be interesting to watch.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

This is a wonderful article!

Boston has proven again and again he has what it takes to be the best in this league, and besides revolutionizing the WR position he can give insight on new training techniques for todays modern player.

I am not sure why everyone is hating on him soo much. He is obviously a very intelligent, hard-working man who just wants to win a championship!

The old school theory of guys playing all the snaps is, well, just that, old school. Today's player needs less practice time, if any, and the freedom to play the game on his terms. Beyond shortening the pre-seaosn and training camp to one weekend (just to get to know your teammates and all. Find out about Bubba's new Escalade, talk to some of the new cheerleaders etc-I mean really do you need more time than that?-I dont think so) I feel todays modern athlete only play 50-60% of the plays regardless of what position they play. That way they can be at maximimu potentiAL for most of the plays. Hell, expand the roster form 53 to 103, that way no one plays more than half the time. Talk about exciting football. Wouldnt you want to see a guy play half the game at his max, then all of the game at half his potential?

I for one will not forget who came up with this idea! Mr Boston, you have really revoultionized the game! I thanks you, the fans thank you, the organization thanks you, and your 102 other teammates thank you!!!!

 

[kerouac9]

All right...

en fuego: I agree that it is regrettable that such an immense talent as DB turned out to be, as you aptly put it, a "head case." And it should have been a ver, very difficult decision to let him walk. What worries me is that it seems to have been a "no brainer" for the Cards office, and I don't like that. In my opinion, DB has Hall of Fame potential, and you can't just make a decision like that.

Wild Card: The reports in February and March were that the Cards were offering DB a deal with little to no signing bonus. In today's NFL, the only real money in a contract is the signing bonus. What DB's offer from the Cardinals equated to was his walking papers and a note not to let the door hit you on the way out. If these reports were untrue, so be it, but that's what they were.

In my opinion, there are some players (T.O., R. Moss, R. Lewis, D. Sanders, C. Woodson, W. Sapp [in his prime]) that are so good it's worth taking the risk of the personal issues that they present, and hope that your coaches and trainers can keep that player playing to his potential. I feel that a player of D.B.'s caliber, with really nothing to back him up (unlike the P. Price/J. Reed situation in Buffalo), was worth such a risk. I guess that opinion diverged from the opinion of the Card's front office.

Also, I didn't say that the Cards did let a good to great player go in DB, but that they might have. Regardless, they let the player walk without taking advantages of tools that are in place to prevent top-level talent from leaving, or leaving without massive comensation, and that equates to letting him walk.

ACB: I agree with you. But, as I said before, some players are worth altering the profile for.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
No offense, Krang, but you are being a dick here. Did you even read the article? All the anti-Boston stuff going on in this thread is total bias. The article was surprisingly (for a local paper) balanced, in my opinion, addressed the concerns (especially about character/being a teammate) about Boston, but didn't pass a lot of judgement.

I forget, but did Goldberg gain catch 100 balls for 1500 yards and go to the Pro Bowl? Was he a first-team All Pro? Please.

There's really no point in talking about former Cards on this board unless they've been gone for more than four years, because no one here can accept that this team might have let good to great players go so that they can spend another 4 years developing possibly equivalent talent.

EDIT: And I defy you to find someone on this board, "Darksider" or otherwise who hates Graves's moves all the time. Yes, some people, myself included, are critical of some of his decisions, but we also are quick to give credit when due, like with the Pace and Johnson signings (I didn't weigh in when Pace was signed and there was some stress about getting Johnson in, because I figured it would all be done in good time, and there's no use in hitting the "panic" button). That, in my mind, is far less "biased" than those who exclaim the virtues of the Cardinal front office regardless of results or impact.

Sorry that I was a dick, I just felt your tone was a little smug on your first post. As Cardinal fans, with all we know about Boston, this article does raise huge concerns. Not that huge, but big enough. I'm starting to wonder if he can withstand the physical toll of being an elite receiver, and I am speculating that he realizes that he can't.

In many ways, I was just playing devil's advocate in my last post, and again, sorry for going a bit overboard.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by kerouac9
All right...

en fuego: In my opinion, DB has Hall of Fame potential



In my opinion, there are some players (T.O., R. Moss, R. Lewis, D. Sanders, C. Woodson, W. Sapp [in his prime]) that are so good it's worth taking the risk of the personal issues that they present

hall of fame potential? I guess thats not that much of a stretch. but man, he's had one good year out of three, off the field issues, and injury problems.

If I were a gambling man, I would put the odds of db ending up in the HOF at about 30-1.

and by the way, guys like Rice, Mark Clayton, Roy Green, Herman Moore, Tim Brown, Antonio Freeman, Deion Sanders etc. were guys who were on the field on offense AT LEAST 85% of the time. Deion, as much as I dislike him, might have been on field even more than that.

Boston will be lucky to get a main hall seat at the sizzler let alone the NFL HOF playing half the offensive downs in game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Crimson Warrior
hall of fame potential? I guess thats not that much of a stretch. but man, he's had one good year out of three, off the field issues, and injury problems.

Is that really accurate in regards to "one good year"? I think a second year WR thrust into the role of number 1 reciever because of Rob Moore's injuries, with Jake Plummer throwing to him and still putting up 1157 yards and 7 touchdowns is a pretty damn good year to go along with his awesome 3rd year of 1600 yards.

 

[SECTION 11]

I hope all non-Cardinals fail miserably on the field.
I don't buy into the self-aggrandized publicity garbage promoted by ESPN, Madden's or any other hype-driven popularity contest where it's all about the 'stars' and marketability.
I want the Cardinals to win, and I want everyone else to lose.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Sorry that I was a dick, I just felt your tone was a little smug on your first post. As Cardinal fans, with all we know about Boston, this article does raise huge concerns. Not that huge, but big enough. I'm starting to wonder if he can withstand the physical toll of being an elite receiver, and I am speculating that he realizes that he can't.

In many ways, I was just playing devil's advocate in my last post, and again, sorry for going a bit overboard.

That's fair; it wouldn't be the first time that I'd made a smug post . I agree that the article raises concerns, not not as many, or as intense, concerns that are being expressed on this thread. I guess to me there's a difference between a player being a "private guy" and being a "me-first guy" or "clubhouse cancer."

A lot of players feel that their coaches are using them the wrong way: look no further than footballstone's posts about the way that Mike Stone was being utilized. There's a difference between a player saying "this is how I think I'm best taken advantage of" (which is what DB said) and "this is the only way that I'm playing for the rest of my career" (which is how it seems some have interpreted this article).

Finally, those that said that DB doesn't care about the team or winning a championship were flat out wrong. He said the opposite in the article!

At least no one can criticize him for taking the party line or not being honest or never saying anything controversial.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Crimson Warrior
hall of fame potential? I guess thats not that much of a stretch. but man, he's had one good year out of three, off the field issues, and injury problems.

If I were a gambling man, I would put the odds of db ending up in the HOF at about 30-1.

and by the way, guys like Rice, Mark Clayton, Roy Green, Herman Moore, Tim Brown, Antonio Freeman, Deion Sanders etc. were guys who were on the field on offense AT LEAST 85% of the time. Deion, as much as I dislike him, might have been on field even more than that.

Boston will be lucky to get a main hall seat at the sizzler let alone the NFL HOF playing half the offensive downs in game.

Deion Sanders?! How are your arguments supposed to be taken seriously when you write something that completely unfounded and just flat out ridiculous. The guy didn't even get used on O until after Alvin Harper left the Boys and it was apparent Kevin Williams wasn't the answer.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by kerouac9
In my opinion, DB has Hall of Fame potential, and you can't just make a decision like that.

I think you missed Wild Man's point, which I believe was (paraphrased)

Don't you think the Cardinals can do the same math you can, ie DB has HoF potential. Given that and the fact that they have known him his entire Pro career, maybe they had a good reason to not fight to keep him but just arn't saying it.

Maybe they know more about this than we do, you think that might be possible ? So far RG has been doing reasonably well as the GM and I am developing some confidence in his judegment. This means we may have to take a few things on faith as they can't tell us the whole story.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
That's fair; it wouldn't be the first time that I'd made a smug post . I agree that the article raises concerns, not not as many, or as intense, concerns that are being expressed on this thread. I guess to me there's a difference between a player being a "private guy" and being a "me-first guy" or "clubhouse cancer."

A lot of players feel that their coaches are using them the wrong way: look no further than footballstone's posts about the way that Mike Stone was being utilized. There's a difference between a player saying "this is how I think I'm best taken advantage of" (which is what DB said) and "this is the only way that I'm playing for the rest of my career" (which is how it seems some have interpreted this article).

Finally, those that said that DB doesn't care about the team or winning a championship were flat out wrong. He said the opposite in the article!

At least no one can criticize him for taking the party line or not being honest or never saying anything controversial.

Well as outsiders, it isn't really fair for any of us to try and say someone was a clubhouse cancer. The one real source for that information is players and members of the organization.

I think we all can agree that Boston isn't a sure bet. He has more potential than any other wide receiver in the game, but he also might have more risk.

Either way, the Cards are probably going to either look like fools or geniuses for the handling of David Boston.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
I hope all non-Cardinals fail miserably on the field.
I don't buy into the self-aggrandized publicity garbage promoted by ESPN, Madden's or any other hype-driven popularity contest where it's all about the 'stars' and marketability.
I want the Cardinals to win, and I want everyone else to lose.

I totally agree...Once a player steps on a one way flight out of Sky Harbor, I no longer pull for them. They are the enemy.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Deion Sanders?! How are your arguments supposed to be taken seriously when you write something that completely unfounded and just flat out ridiculous. The guy didn't even get used on O until after Alvin Harper left the Boys and it was apparent Kevin Williams wasn't the answer.

what I meant cheesy, was that dieon was on the field on DEFENSE PLUS OFFENSE for more than 60% of the plays on one side of the ball.

do you understand?


like 80% of defensive plays plus 30% of the offensive plays is greater than 60% of the offensive plays. ok genius?

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by nidan
I think you missed Wild Man's point, which I believe was (paraphrased)

Don't you think the Cardinals can do the same math you can, ie DB has HoF potential. Given that and the fact that they have known him his entire Pro career, maybe they had a good reason to not fight to keep him but just arn't saying it.

Maybe they know more about this than we do, you think that might be possible ? So far RG has been doing reasonably well as the GM and I am developing some confidence in his judegment. This means we may have to take a few things on faith as they can't tell us the whole story.

Maybe, but part (maybe the main part, in today's NFL) of being a good GM is maintaining a good relationship with your fans. Look back at the posts from March and tell me that they did a good job maintaining that relationship. What I saw was Graves smearing DB's name all over the Combine, and I didn't think that was classy then, and I don't think it's classy now. What do you think is the better PR move: telling people that you're moving in a different direction at wide reciever (which was basically the truth), or offering an essentially insulting offer (which was never denied by Graves or any other Cards rep, and no signing bonus is an insulting offer) and then telling the fans, "Well, we did all we could to retain him"?

I have more faith in Graves now then I did before, but when he was handling the start of the off-season program, he was brand new to the job. Seeing how he handled DB's departure (and to a lesser extent, Jake's) and the Draft Day trade fiasco (the picks are fine, I still think we got gamed in the trade itself) makes me think that Graves has learned quickly on the job, but not before fumbling like Travis Henry his first few days on the job. I'm willing to give Graves faith now, but at that decision at the start of the offseason, I still think he made a bad choice, both football-wise and P.R.-wise.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Maybe, but part (maybe the main part, in today's NFL) of being a good GM is maintaining a good relationship with your fans. Look back at the posts from March and tell me that they did a good job maintaining that relationship. What I saw was Graves smearing DB's name all over the Combine, and I didn't think that was classy then, and I don't think it's classy now. What do you think is the better PR move: telling people that you're moving in a different direction at wide reciever (which was basically the truth), or offering an essentially insulting offer (which was never denied by Graves or any other Cards rep, and no signing bonus is an insulting offer) and then telling the fans, "Well, we did all we could to retain him"?

I have more faith in Graves now then I did before, but when he was handling the start of the off-season program, he was brand new to the job. Seeing how he handled DB's departure (and to a lesser extent, Jake's) and the Draft Day trade fiasco (the picks are fine, I still think we got gamed in the trade itself) makes me think that Graves has learned quickly on the job, but not before fumbling like Travis Henry his first few days on the job. I'm willing to give Graves faith now, but at that decision at the start of the offseason, I still think he made a bad choice, both football-wise and P.R.-wise.

I'm glad to see this.

Graves HAS screwed up on a few things, but I honestly think that he could turn this ship around.

He still has to contend with the Bidwillian stupidity, but I believe that Graves has enough of their trust to do it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Crimson Warrior
what I meant cheesy, was that dieon was on the field on DEFENSE PLUS OFFENSE for more than 60% of the plays on one side of the ball.

do you understand?


like 80% of defensive plays plus 30% of the offensive plays is greater than 60% of the offensive plays. ok genius?

sorry - I misread your post and since you specifically were talking about 85 percent of all offensive plays - well that is what I thought you were referring to. By the way - no response to your ignoring of Boston's second year in order to make your argument stronger?

Man - you really hate me, huh? I like that.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Well as outsiders, it isn't really fair for any of us to try and say someone was a clubhouse cancer. The one real source for that information is players and members of the organization.

I think we all can agree that Boston isn't a sure bet. He has more potential than any other wide receiver in the game, but he also might have more risk.

Either way, the Cards are probably going to either look like fools or geniuses for the handling of David Boston.

They will never look like Geniuses. Even if Pace becomes the second-coming of Strahan, the Cards wont look like geniuses.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Graves HAS screwed up on a few things, but I honestly think that he could turn this ship around.

I agree. He needs a chance to grow as a GM, just like Mac needs to grow as a head coach. They're both in the infancy of their current positions.

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by kerouac9
The reports in February and March were that the Cards were offering DB a deal with little to no signing bonus. In today's NFL, the only real money in a contract is the signing bonus. What DB's offer from the Cardinals equated to was his walking papers and a note not to let the door hit you on the way out. If these reports were untrue, so be it, but that's what they were.

Kerouac:

I think you misunderstood my question. I agree with you that the Cardinals, as a result of the contract terms they offered and their choice not to franchise Boston, in effect let him walk. I was curious why you thought they chose to do so.

What I get from your response is that you think the Cards believed "the risk of the personal issues" around Boston outweighed "his potential," and that you disagree with that assessment.

Fair enough. Intelligent people can look at the same data and draw different conclusions. I'd point out, though, that the Cards coaches and staff are closer to both sides of the equation than you and me. They've observed both his on-field performance and off-field behavior at much closer range.

I believe, in the long-term, it was probably best for this team not to have David Boston return. I'll be interested to see how he performs--and behaves--in San Diego.

WC

 

[SECTION 11]

Wildcard always manages to bring a little raison d'être to the conversation.

How you have the patience to deal with the bucket-heads on AZ Central is beyond me.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
They will never look like Geniuses. Even if Pace becomes the second-coming of Strahan, the Cards wont look like geniuses.

I'm sorry man, I usually agree with you a lot, but if Calvin Pace becomes Strahan, they will be geniuses.

Especially if Bryant Johnson, Boldin, and Hayes pan out. Graves will look like an all star GM.

 

[Sandan]

Nobody disagrees that DB was shown the door, it's just some of us think there is more to this story than the public (or possibly the Chargers) know.

I've thought this since the saga started and still believe it even though I have no more information than you (kerouac9) do.

I don't know what you do for a living K, but I know from my business that you can get into significant legal trouble for giving somebody a "bad" refererence. It has gotten to the point in most corporations that all they will do is direct you to the personel dept who will only confirm employment dates and salary (note: I said confirm, they will not give out any info)

Nothing else makes sense given DB obvious potential.

 

[kerouac9]

WC: You put it exactly as I saw it. What I found interesting were two things: (1) the Cards felt that DB's issues were so bad that their coaching staff couldn't work with him over them/through them to help him reach his potential, and (2) the way that they handled the situation publicly, (2a) telling everyone who would listen at the Combine about the serious and grave concerns about his behavior and health and (2b) offering an insulting deal to DB and playing it to the public that no matter what, DB didn't want to be a Cardinal (which may be true, but was never publicly stated, a la S. Rice).

Boston and his representatives (at least, according to the article) seemed pretty up-front about what DB's requirements were for joining the team. Maybe DB's demands were too much for the team to take, I have no idea, but to think that the situation regarding a professional athlete of DB's intelligence and caliber was so dire that it cannot be expressed with women and children present doesn't seem particularly likely.

Personally, I think that the Cards (Graves) handled the situation out of fear and ignorance (from inexperience). I don't think that's a great way to run a business, and it's sure as hell no way to go about winning a championship. I'd like for someone to ask Graves (off the record) if he had a chance to do it again, if he'd handle the Boston situation the same way.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I'm sorry man, I usually agree with you a lot, but if Calvin Pace becomes Strahan, they will be geniuses.

Especially if Bryant Johnson, Boldin, and Hayes pan out. Graves will look like an all star GM.

I agree. In fact, if all these guys are solid contributors, I bet Graves looks alot like a genius after so many bad draft flops in recent years.

Graves has made some blunders and he has made some nice moves too...just like any other GM out there. The key is always to make more good moves than bad...and at this juncture I would say he has done that this offseason.

His biggest error was not attempting to get SOMETHING...ANYTHING...for Boston. The jury is out on the end product/intelligence of that decision but no matter how you sklice it, he should have TRIED to get something for him.