Bruce Arians - “Arizona Was Going to Draft Deshaun Watson”

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes, I'm sure we had the opportunity to up our deal. I'm sure those teams both knew we were interested, and I have zero doubt we talked to them and found out what other teams were prepared to give up. And I think we smartly passed on the deal because it was way too rich.

You guys are only mad because of who these players turned out to be. 95% of the board would have rioted if we gave up enough to be competitive with a team offering up a first round pick, especially because both players were divisive. As I've mentioned, if this were Paxton Lynch, Josh Rosen, or Blake Bortles, no one would be lashing out at Keim for "not being proactive." And I only mention those guys because they were either liked by us or drafted by us.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap20...ls-gm-steve-keim-we-liked-blake-bortles-a-lot

You keep bringing up what the board would’ve done. WHO THE HELL CARES?!? If that’s what the GM is worried about in drafting he should be shot. If they were smart enough to target those guys and had conviction in them they should’ve done what was necessary to get them.

Guess what, no would be rioting now if we gave up all those “riches” (lol - you crack me up characterizing that pupu platter of poop as “riches”).

 

[Solar7]

No man. Just no. In your world every first is worth the same. They’re not. Moving down 3 spots and getting a first half second the same year is likely better than moving down 10 spots and an end of first round pick a year later. The first round move down is more valuable to the cards slot than to either the Texans or chiefs. And the current year 2nd is likely close to equal value for a next years late first. Current draft picks are always more valuable than later year picks. So if took our 1st, 2nd, and 4th (or even our 3rd) that year to move up and get one of those two it would’ve (a) likely been worth it; and (b) been an equivalent, of not superior, deal in terms of value than what the chiefs or Texans offered.

Not every first is worth the same, of course. But in terms of talking potential value, the pick is higher. Especially the Browns, who killed it, and very obviously made the right choice to trade with the Texans instead of us, picking up a top 5 in the draft.

I'm not sure how you can defend offering up a 1st, 2nd, and 4th to move up 2-3 spots in a draft with two guys that weren't surefire players. Sure, it would have been worth it, but you can't employ this strategy year-to-year and be a successful football team. You can only work with the information you have.

Josh Rosen seemed like a suitable player for the compensation we gave up, and we found out different. You can't play the hindsight game here. GMs have to deal with the hand being dealt. For every single one of Keim's drafts, we can pretty much say "wow, it would have been worth it to trade all of these bad players for one good one." But that's the sign of a bad GM, not of a strategy that should be consistently utilized.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So many arm chair coaches and gms on here.

Uh yeah, that’s the very reason for a chat board.

it should we all jump up and down clapping and yelling “hurray! Keim’s the best! Feed me more 3- and 4- win seasons of dreck!!!”

 

[Solar7]

Wow this where I think you’re totally out to lunch. The greatest difference in value in the draft tends to be between first round picks. So the difference of our slot and the chiefs and Texans slots in the first would have been overwhelmingly in favor of our position. And the absolutely recognized time value of picks favoring a current pick over a future pick would’ve favored our deal as well.

There's a 10 pt. difference between the end of the 1st and top of the 2nd, it's not a major drop off there. I did the math on the slots per the draft chart. We would have wildly overpaid to get into those spots, using our 2nd rounder, and I doubt we wanted to give it up anyways.

Would you sit and applaud Keim if he gave up our second round pick to move from 6 to 5 this year? Nah, you wouldn't. And you didn't for Rosen. You wouldn't for Paxton Lynch. This is only because of the players they became, and otherwise, you'd call Keim an idiot for identifying poor talent.

 

[Solar7]

You keep bringing up what the board would’ve done. WHO THE HELL CARES?!? If that’s what the GM is worried about in drafting he should be shot. If they were smart enough to target those guys and had conviction in them they should’ve done what was necessary to get them.

Guess what, no would be rioting now if we gave up all those “riches” (lol - you crack me up characterizing that pupu platter of poop as “riches”).

The role of a GM is to built a competitive, winning team, with good players. That is a part of the big picture of the organization - to sell tickets. His second job is... to keep his own job. Giving up the top two picks in your draft when you think you still have a playoff roster would be dumbfounding, and a poor choice in almost every situation where the two guys didn't turn out to be great.

For the thousandth time, revisionist history. We're blaming him when he WAS proactive and it failed, and blaming him when he was more conservative and it failed. Pick a lane.

 

[Solar7]

Also, I'm wasting so much time defending a guy I wish was looking for alternative employment, I don't even know what I'm doing. He's a guy who lost his mojo and both sides would be better off with a fresh start.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't see Keim or Joseph being fired this year. Not saying I agree with it, just don't see it. We'll see.

I don’t think it’ll happen either.

fire keim!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Of course, those players all suck (or are okay at best). But you're assuming that's how it would have played out. Keim hasn't had a good draft, but if you're willing to blow through picks under the assumption that we can get one major player and no one else will be decent, it's time to change GMs. Although I don't think you and I are arguing about changing GMs at all, haha.

Exactly!

fire keim

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not every first is worth the same, of course. But in terms of talking potential value, the pick is higher. Especially the Browns, who killed it, and very obviously made the right choice to trade with the Texans instead of us, picking up a top 5 in the draft.

I'm not sure how you can defend offering up a 1st, 2nd, and 4th to move up 2-3 spots in a draft with two guys that weren't surefire players. Sure, it would have been worth it, but you can't employ this strategy year-to-year and be a successful football team. You can only work with the information you have.

Josh Rosen seemed like a suitable player for the compensation we gave up, and we found out different. You can't play the hindsight game here. GMs have to deal with the hand being dealt. For every single one of Keim's drafts, we can pretty much say "wow, it would have been worth it to trade all of these bad players for one good one." But that's the sign of a bad GM, not of a strategy that should be consistently utilized.

But that’s us. A GM should be better than us. I would expect keim to be more informed about Watson and Mahomes than were we.

 

[Solar7]

But that’s us. A GM should be better than us. I would expect keim to be more informed about Watson and Mahomes than were we.

It's not just us, it's other people paid to work with this profession - and two teams who probably should have stood pat and taken the players they traded out of those spots for. These guys were just fliers in a year preceding what was supposed to be the best QB draft since '04.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There's a 10 pt. difference between the end of the 1st and top of the 2nd, it's not a major drop off there. I did the math on the slots per the draft chart. We would have wildly overpaid to get into those spots, using our 2nd rounder, and I doubt we wanted to give it up anyways.

Would you sit and applaud Keim if he gave up our second round pick to move from 6 to 5 this year? Nah, you wouldn't. And you didn't for Rosen. You wouldn't for Paxton Lynch. This is only because of the players they became, and otherwise, you'd call Keim an idiot for identifying poor talent.

I suppose it depends on whose available. If it meant young yeah I’d do that this year. And I was fine for the company we gave up for Rosen. It didn’t work. But I don’t trust keims talent evaluation at this point.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The role of a GM is to built a competitive, winning team, with good players. That is a part of the big picture of the organization - to sell tickets. His second job is... to keep his own job. Giving up the top two picks in your draft when you think you still have a playoff roster would be dumbfounding, and a poor choice in almost every situation where the two guys didn't turn out to be great.

For the thousandth time, revisionist history. We're blaming him when he WAS proactive and it failed, and blaming him when he was more conservative and it failed. Pick a lane.

What proactive action are we blaming him for?

 

[Solar7]

What proactive action are we blaming him for?

Earlier in this thread we pretty much addressed Rosen. And it was admitted/let slide (IIRC, give me a break here, I've had a fever for days) that a Paxton Lynch or Bortles would have been a disaster, near choices that preceded the Mahomes/Watson thing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Earlier in this thread we pretty much addressed Rosen. And it was admitted/let slide (IIRC, give me a break here, I've had a fever for days) that a Paxton Lynch or Bortles would have been a disaster, near choices that preceded the Mahomes/Watson thing.

I don’t blame keim for Rosen. I was fine with that trade. So I’ve stayed steady “in my lane.”

 

[Solar7]

I don’t blame keim for Rosen. I was fine with that trade. So I’ve stayed steady “in my lane.”

I'm talking about the general tone of the thread. Can't blame Keim for the same basic situation where we just got outbid or he would have wildly overpaid. Damned if we did, damned if we didn't in that situation, and only damned because the players happened to be good.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm talking about the general tone of the thread. Can't blame Keim for the same basic situation where we just got outbid or he would have wildly overpaid. Damned if we did, damned if we didn't in that situation, and only damned because the players happened to be good.

you can absolutely blame Keim for flat out getting those decisions WRONG.

 

[Solar7]

you can absolutely blame Keim for flat out getting those decisions WRONG.

If the decision was in his hands, yes. But it wasn't. If he'd passed on either guy at #13, I'd be there with you with the torches and Frankenstein rakes. But no one can claim he didn't try to get there or acquire them.