Build Around Amare.

[Goran Stoudemire]

Can you explain this? In what category? Are you saying overall in the NBA? Overall all at the PF position? Scoring PF in the NBA?

The only one that he definitely is top 10 is offensive PF in the NBA. I agree with that.

Overall in the NBA it's no question he is NOT a top 10 player. Looking at Amare from the PF position only, you could buy the argument he is Top 15 and not Top 10 although debateable.

Amare (PF playing at least 30 minutes per game)
FG% #7
PPG #6
FT% #6
Assists PG - #23
RPG #23
SPG - #18
BPG #19
Turnovers - 2nd worst in the NBA
Opposing PPG (Defense) - #20

Again, could buy the argument he is not top 10 at the PF position. I personally think he cracks the top 10 at the PF position because of his ability to dominate a game here and there.

However, if you think Amare is top 10 NBA (meaning all of the NBA), you really need to explain that one to me. Maybe give me a list of your top 10 players. I just don't really understand how you can call any player in the NBA top 10 that doesn't play on both ends of the floor.

I'm gonna start off by saying that stats dont mean everything and you have to look at the situation a player is in.

Then I'm gonna tell you, your stats are way off.

Amare is 4th among PF when it comes to PPG, fg%, ft%. 12th in apg. Turnovers is 12th worst in the NBA not 2nd overall. Rebounding is 12th. Steals is 7th. Blocks is 11th

I would like to know where your opposing ppg is from? Link?

I'm sorry but next time you provide stats, try to get them right. I would love to see peoples argument that he isnt a top 10 PF. I know you dont agree with that but to even suggest that is ludicris.

I'm willing to bet you had Nash as a top 10 player all these years. Yet he doesnt play both sides of the ball and is 10x worse as a defender than Amare.

Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
KG
Paul
Howard
Dirk

are better. Deron, Bosh, Yao are guys that you can argue are on the same level. Durant is rising up the rankings fast.

 

[PoolBoy]

I'm gonna start off by saying that stats dont mean everything and you have to look at the situation a player is in.

Then I'm gonna tell you, your stats are way off.

Amare is 4th among PF when it comes to PPG, fg%, ft%. 12th in apg. Turnovers is 12th worst in the NBA not 2nd overall. Rebounding is 12th. Steals is 7th. Blocks is 11th

I would like to know where your opposing ppg is from? Link?

I'm sorry but next time you provide stats, try to get them right. I would love to see peoples argument that he isnt a top 10 PF. I know you dont agree with that but to even suggest that is ludicris.

I'm willing to bet you had Nash as a top 10 player all these years. Yet he doesnt play both sides of the ball and is 10x worse as a defender than Amare.

Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
KG
Paul
Howard
Dirk

are better. Deron, Bosh, Yao are guys that you can argue are on the same level. Durant is rising up the rankings fast.

Stats not meaning anything hurts "STAT" IMO, the guy doesn't hustle, and unless things are going right he disappears.

And yes, when nash won the MVP 2 straight years and LED this team to small breaks away from the finals, i think i had him top 5.

 

[Goran Stoudemire]

You can't build a title conteding team with Amare as your center piece. Now if this team went out and got a better player then Amare to play along side him, your back in business.

I am not against the team holding on to Amare if that is the plan. I am 100% against this team making Amare the center piece if your goal is win a title. It will NEVER happen. Also, could this team get enough players around Amare to shore up his horrible defense and subpar rebounding???

Besides, the one big hurdle in the scenario of keeping Amare is...... Amare will never except not being "the man". His ego is telling him he is a tier 1 player in this league.

Why not? Give me examples of where Amare has been the centerpiece and failed.

About finding a better player. GL with that. Thats why we shouldnt trade him, because chances are very slim that we find a player better than Amare in the next 10 years.

Amare wants to be the man of a team. Just like Bosh,Dirk, AL Jeff are. He has never been given that oppurtunity and thats disapointing.

 

[PoolBoy]

Why not? Give me examples of where Amare has been the centerpiece and failed.

About finding a better player. GL with that. Thats why we shouldnt trade him, because chances are very slim that we find a player better than Amare in the next 10 years.

Amare wants to be the man of a team. Just like Bosh,Dirk, AL Jeff are. He has never been given that oppurtunity and thats disapointing.

2009.

What does being "the man" even mean? Does everyone have to cheer the loudest for him when he's announced?
Being "the man" is his choice. To do this he needs to....
-Stop Bitching on and off the court
-Act like a man on defense
-Not call out veterans
-Play with some intensity and heart

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm gonna start off by saying that stats don't mean everything and you have to look at the situation a player is in.

And I am gonna start off by saying I agree. For instance, no stat conveys how bad Amare really is at defense sometimes.

I'm sorry but next time you provide stats, try to get them right. I would love to see peoples argument that he isnt a top 10 PF. I know you dont agree with that but to even suggest that is ludicris.

I'm sorry but next time you accuse them of not being right...at least give someone the benefit of the doubt. Your new here I understand that but I post stats here all the time (usually with links) but sometimes I just get tired of it and just post the info. Sometimes I make mistakes but in this case I checked again after your accusation.

Also, I do hope you understand that stats are always different from site to site because some have him listed at C, others PF, others PF/C right? So, they can vary. I use Fox because they sort by where a player plays his primary minutes. In this case they list Amare at PF.

Also, I removed players that had better stats then Amare but were playing fewer minutes (less then 30 MPG at PF). That actually helped Amare not hurt.

Here is some detail:

PPG (#6 at PF)
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/sortab...ble=scoring&position=PF&showPlayers=all&Go=Go

Dirk - 25.8
Jefferson - 23.1
Bosch - 22.7
Randolph - 22.0
Jamison - 21.4
Amare - 20.9


Turnovers (at the PF position - 2nd worst in the NBA)
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/sortab...e=turnovers&position=PF&showPlayers=all&Go=Go

Total Turnovers (2nd worst in the NBA at PF)
Rudy Gay 143
Amare - 141

TO Per Game (2nd worst in the NBA AT PF)
Rudy Gay - 2.92
Amare - 2.88


Rebounds Per Game (Amare listed at #25, I reduced that by taking out players with minutes under 30)
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/sortab...le=rebounds&position=PF&showPlayers=all&Go=Go

Here is a list of PF with better rebounds per game then Amare. I realize some of these guys log minutes at Center but so does Amare. Even if you eliminate all the guys you consider pure Centers...it doesn't move Amare very far up the list.

Camby - 12.8
Lee - 11.8
Boozer - 11.7
Murphy - 11.4
Jefferson - 11.0
OKafer - 10.6
Randolph - 10.6
Duncan - 10.5
Bosch - 9.5
Gasol - 9.4
Millsap - 9.3
Jamison 9.1
KG - 9.0
Brand - 8.8
Marion - 8.8
Love - 8.7
Gooden - 8.6
McDyess - 8.6
Okur - 8.5
Haslem 8.4
Horford 8.4
Dirk 8.3
Hilario 8.2
Lopez 8.2
Amare 8.2

I had Amare up higher on the list because I took out guys playing less then 30 minutes (like Kevin Love and Antonio).

Opposing PPG
In terms of Opposing PPG, you have to do a little homework on your own but it's here: 82games.com. If you would like I can post the rest of the detail that back it up.

Again, some of those stats above will change depending on the site but they are not be wild swings from the above. It still conveys how one dimensional Amare is.

He is not a top 10 player in the NBA. Show me one site that lists Amare top 10 in the NBA across all categories that would make him a top 10 NBA player in the NBA. Again, I agree with you that stats are not everything. However, even with what I see with my own eyes doesn't say top 10 NBA player (especially on the off offensive nights).

 

[pokerface]

Its easier to trade Amare than to try to build around him....especially since he's not worth building around.



That was easy.....next

 

[green machine]

PPG (#6 at PF)
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/sortab...ble=scoring&position=PF&showPlayers=all&Go=Go

Dirk - 25.8
Jefferson - 23.1
Bosch - 22.7
Randolph - 22.0
Jamison - 21.4
Amare - 20.9

Of those guys, what are the shot attempts per game like? I know Dirk, Jefferson, Bosch and Jamison are clearly the top options on their teams, and I'm pretty sure Randolph hasn't played in nearly enough games to make his stats relevant.

 

[Chaplin]

Here is a list of PF with better rebounds per game then Amare. I realize some of these guys log minutes at Center but so does Amare. Even if you eliminate all the guys you consider pure Centers...it doesn't move Amare very far up the list.

Camby - 12.8
Lee - 11.8
Boozer - 11.7
Murphy - 11.4
Jefferson - 11.0
OKafer - 10.6
Randolph - 10.6
Duncan - 10.5
Bosch - 9.5
Gasol - 9.4
Millsap - 9.3
Jamison 9.1
KG - 9.0
Brand - 8.8
Marion - 8.8
Love - 8.7
Gooden - 8.6
McDyess - 8.6
Okur - 8.5
Haslem 8.4
Horford 8.4
Dirk 8.3
Hilario 8.2
Lopez 8.2
Amare 8.2

I had Amare up higher on the list because I took out guys playing less then 30 minutes (like Kevin Love and Antonio).

These rebounding stats are misleading. I agree that Amare stinks are rebounding, but all those guys don't have Shaq playing next to them--they are all considered their teams main rebounding big men. At best, Amare and Shaq are designed to share that responsibility.

 

[Covert Rain]

These rebounding stats are misleading. I agree that Amare stinks are rebounding, but all those guys don't have Shaq playing next to them--they are all considered their teams main rebounding big men. At best, Amare and Shaq are designed to share that responsibility.

Totally agree with you but Amare has underachieved compared to his counterparts before Shaq got here. Amare by no means is the worst rebounder in the league. In fact, I could probably live with Amare's rebounding if he was consistent. What kills me is those games where he gets a few for the entire game or zero for a half. It's just inexcusable.

 

[SunsStatFan]

yes Saver will get money because Nash has the market value, but his defence hurts the team deeply out of DA's system, Suns won't be top again with Nash.

 

[Black Jesus]

agreed. its on NASH. Trade Nash to New York and trade Shaq to the Lakers.

 

[Covert Rain]

yes Saver will get money because Nash has the market value, but his defence hurts the team deeply out of DA's system, Suns won't be top again with Nash.

Well then we better pray we can get a legit Super Star to play along Amare or we won't be on top with Amare either.

 

[PoolBoy]

any deal for nash that doesn't get us a good young point guard like a monta ellis or even nate robertson is STUPID. If Goran and barbosa are running the point daily then we are screwed.

 

[Covert Rain]

any deal for nash that doesn't get us a good young point guard like a monta ellis or even nate robertson is STUPID. If Goran and barbosa are running the point daily then we are screwed.

I think the same applies here. I think if you trade Nash, it has to be for a guard. If you trade Amare it has to include a PF. If you trade Shaq at the very least it has to be for a big body.

I understand you could stock up on picks but since the draft is so unpredictable at the very least you should get guys that can fill that need so you can build for the future.

If I see the Suns trade any of those guys away just for salary cap relief + crap...I am going to puke. Something tells me I better grab my barf bag.

 

[nowagimp]

These rebounding stats are misleading. I agree that Amare stinks are rebounding, but all those guys don't have Shaq playing next to them--they are all considered their teams main rebounding big men. At best, Amare and Shaq are designed to share that responsibility.

No kidding, jamison wouldnt even get 7 boards next to shaq. Any of these guys from poor rebounding team have inflated stats as well. Grabbing 9 boards is easy when you trail by 15 the whole game, they wont be hotly contested.

 

[Covert Rain]

No kidding, jamison wouldnt even get 7 boards next to shaq. Any of these guys from poor rebounding team have inflated stats as well. Grabbing 9 boards is easy when you trail by 15 the whole game, they wont be hotly contested.

Except in this system, whoever plays PF is going to get plenty of time at the center position. That is not going to change unless you can somehow get a backup center and PF in a deal for Amare. I doubt that happens.

Amare underchieved before Shaq got here and has even done so when playing the center with Shaq on the bench this year. I guess you could run a more conventional set and use Side Show Bob off the bench everytime you send Shaq to the bench....but...do you really want to see that? Then again, with Side Show out there, there will be plenty more boards to go around since we all know he doesn't rebound well.

 

[Black Jesus]

keeping nash for politics is going to keep this team from being good. He has close to nothing in the tank. let some team that is playing well take him and get young cheap players in return.

 

[PoolBoy]

keeping nash for politics is going to keep this team from being good. He has close to nothing in the tank. let some team that is playing well take him and get young cheap players in return.

keeping an 'all about me' guy is keeping the team down more than a 2 time MVP who just the other day had 21 assists

 

[green machine]

keeping an 'all about me' guy is keeping the team down more than a 2 time MVP who just the other day had 21 assists

Nash hasn't had a good year, with the turnovers and lack of defense.

This team has many personnel problems, Nash and Amare happen to be two of them.

 

[arwillan]

+1 on all the above.

make it +2.


A side note on the KG vs. Amare discussion:

Kg wanted to win more than anything else. He put winning above himself, and above playing in some huge market. He plays with his heart on the floor night in and night out. He brings it defensively. He leads his team and demands their best. He does all the things we wish Amare had the brains to do. Flat out: He is a winner and, barring some huge turn around, Amare is not.

 

[green machine]

make it +2.


A side note on the KG vs. Amare discussion:

Kg wanted to win more than anything else. He put winning above himself, and above playing in some huge market. He plays with his heart on the floor night in and night out. He brings it defensively. He leads his team and demands their best. He does all the things we wish Amare had the brains to do. Flat out: He is a winner and, barring some huge turn around, Amare is not.

Nobody thought KG was a winner until he was traded to Boston to play with Pierce and Allen.

KG couldn't do it on his own and thus, is not a franchise player worthy of max contract, right?

KG was on a team that was built to promote his strengths and hide his weaknesses.

 

[arwillan]

Nobody thought KG was a winner until he was traded to Boston to play with Pierce and Allen.

KG couldn't do it on his own and thus, is not a franchise player worthy of max contract, right?

KG was on a team that was built to promote his strengths and hide his weaknesses.

KG had a winning attitude before he went there. He did all of the things i mentioned before he got there. Apparently all of the MVP voters thought he was a winner, right? Last time I checked, he won that award too.


I hope the second point is a joke. Name me one player at any time in recent nba history that won a championship "on his own". I can't think of anyone. By your theory, Kobe sucks because he never won without shaq. Wade sucks for the same reason. And heck, LeBron must be god-awful! Maybe Tim Duncan sucks, because he never won anything without some combination of Robinson, Parker, and Ginobili (1 for sure hall of famer, and 2 other borderline hall of famers). Sorry, but those are all franchise players worthy of max contracts and are amongst the best players in the game recently.

And the point of that last part is.....? Isn't that the idea? Build around your franchise player's strengths? Build away from all your players' weaknesses? Besides, KG is one of the most complete players in the NBA. He is one of, if not the best, best defensive big men out there. He rebounds, he scores, and he leads his team. What more could you want?

 

[arwillan]

Nash hasn't had a good year, with the turnovers and lack of defense.

This team has many personnel problems, Nash and Amare happen to be two of them.

Nash's whole career has been plagued with bad defense. That's nothing new. The turnovers have always been there as well, mostly as a product of the systems he's been in.

 

[pokerface]

If we build around Amare we will never win a championship. I mean cripe, look at all the talent we have around Amare now!

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Build around Amare = get players that are worse than the players we have now?

What team has had success in the past that has tailored their team around a big that doesn't play defense?