Build Around Amare.

[SirStefan32]

Nobody thought KG was a winner until he was traded to Boston to play with Pierce and Allen.

KG couldn't do it on his own and thus, is not a franchise player worthy of max contract, right?

KG was on a team that was built to promote his strengths and hide his weaknesses.

Come on man, there is no comparison between KG and Amare. Garnett has always been an outstanding defender and rebounder. He's been on an All Defensive First Team seven times (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008) and on All Defensive Second Team twice (2006 and 2007), not to mention that he is the current Defensive Player of the Year.

He was an MVP of the league in Minnesota, without Ray Allen and Paul Pierce (he played with Cassell, Spreewell, and Olowokandi).

He's led the league in rebounding 4 times- 2004 (13.9), 2005 (13.5), 2006 (12.7), 2007 (12.8), and has always been among the leading rebounders in the league. His career average is over 11 rebounds per game, to go along with over 20 points and well over 4 assists.

KG has always been a complete player- nice jumper, and outstanding low-post game, playmaking abilities, outstanding defense and rebounding.
He is a prototype/ blueprint of a franchise player/ superstar.
Amare is not even in the same class as KG.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

gamesetmatch

 

[green machine]

Come on man, there is no comparison between KG and Amare. Garnett has always been an outstanding defender and rebounder. He's been on an All Defensive First Team seven times (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008) and on All Defensive Second Team twice (2006 and 2007), not to mention that he is the current Defensive Player of the Year.

He was an MVP of the league in Minnesota, without Ray Allen and Paul Pierce (he played with Cassell, Spreewell, and Olowokandi).

He's led the league in rebounding 4 times- 2004 (13.9), 2005 (13.5), 2006 (12.7), 2007 (12.8), and has always been among the leading rebounders in the league. His career average is over 11 rebounds per game, to go along with over 20 points and well over 4 assists.

KG has always been a complete player- nice jumper, and outstanding low-post game, playmaking abilities, outstanding defense and rebounding.
He is a prototype/ blueprint of a franchise player/ superstar.
Amare is not even in the same class as KG.

Not saying that Amare is better or that KG sucks. I happen to really like KG.

Just saying how perceptions are quick to change.

 

[pokerface]

Not saying that Amare is better or that KG sucks. I happen to really like KG.

Amare is NOT equal to KG....lets not forget that obvious fact. Hence your comparison is null and void.

 

[nowagimp]

If we build around Amare we will never win a championship. I mean cripe, look at all the talent we have around Amare now!

Same could be said of rasheed wallace when he was a blazer, plus he was a worse head case than amare, a "cancer". If amare is traded, I expect he will end up playing much better than he did here. He needs to be the #1 option on offense and that isnt happening here.

I would say the showtime lakers(3 championships) played with jabbar, who wasnt a good defender. Or I could say that moses malone on the 83 NBA champion 76ers(I lived in phila then, saw every game), wasnt a very good defender, he could rebound, but couldnt block a shot to save his butt, and was slow afoot on D. Of course the response to this would be: you can only count teams after 1990 or something. But that narrows the statistical sample to a really small number, probably irrelevant. I wouldnt quote a stat on that. I would say that you need some good defenders on your front line/bench. It doesnt have to be the go to guy or max player that is the best defender.

 

[green machine]

Amare is NOT equal to KG....lets not forget that obvious fact. Hence your comparison is null and void.

Never said he was. Just pointing out that when people are throwing around the term "franchise player", that opinion can change very quickly.

As much as KG was one, I don't think anyone felt you could build a team around him and be successful. At least, it never worked in Minny. A superstar, even a franchise player, needs a supporting cast that meshes with their talents and hides their flaws.

Not saying Amare is a superstar, but the players on the team don't help at all to maximize his abilities.

 

[nowagimp]

. A superstar, even a franchise player, needs a supporting cast that meshes with their talents and hides their flaws.

Yup, and KG's weakness is that he's not a clutch player on offense at the end of games, not a go to guy in the crunch. This is why PP and Ray fit so well, they DO play very well in trhe clutch. And neither of those guys are ever considered top defenders, but KG and perkins have their(and eddie houses,LOL) back.

 

[Bufalay]

KG isn't really a dominant offensive player.

 

[AceP]

Yes, Amare is a dominating offensive player. Exactly the right one you want to build a team around. Give him the ball, let him score. Then your team will win easily. Just as tonight.

 

[nowagimp]

Yes, Amare is a dominating offensive player. Exactly the right one you want to build a team around. Give him the ball, let him score. Then your team will win easily. Just as tonight.

Just like KG's team was thumped by lesser teams than the cavs on a nightly basis in minnie, and rarely even saw a playoff game, let alone won a playoff series.

 

[pokerface]

Same could be said of rasheed wallace when he was a blazer, plus he was a worse head case than amare, a "cancer". If amare is traded, I expect he will end up playing much better than he did here. He needs to be the #1 option on offense and that isnt happening here.

Running most of the offense through Amare isnt going to make him a better defender or rebounder. Actually, if Amare had to put more effort into his offense then his defense would probably suffer even more than it does already. Plus it doesnt matter if Amare plays better elsewhere if he can't produce for us the way we want him to.


Its hard to build around a one dimensional player. If you look at the vast majority of franchise players they usually have more than one atribute working for them. Garnett and Duncan can play both sides of the ball AND rebound.

 

[nowagimp]

Plus it doesnt matter if Amare plays better elsewhere if he can't produce for us the way we want him to.

The way we want him too? Sounds like the problems there. You dont take a guy like that and use him as a jump shooter 'cause your 36 year old former all world center needs touches on the low block. With shaq, the suns are running the offense through a guy who has the lowest asst/game, and lowest asst/TO ratio in the rotation for crap sakes. The team was better defensively and offensively when shaq was used as a more defensive minded role player.

 

[pokerface]

As much as KG was one, I don't think anyone felt you could build a team around him and be successful. At least, it never worked in Minny. A superstar, even a franchise player, needs a supporting cast that meshes with their talents and hides their flaws.

Not saying Amare is a superstar, but the players on the team don't help at all to maximize his abilities.

What are you even talking about? You keep repeating that but I'm not getting how that relates to Amare. We supposed to get guys to play defense and rebound for Amare? Isn't that what our bigs (meaning Amare) are supposed to do?? If KG has weaknesses to "hide" then what does that say about Amare? I mean KG grabs boards like a mutha and is all world defender....Amare can't even be average in those areas.

 

[pokerface]

The way we want him too? Sounds like the problems there. You dont take a guy like that and use him as a jump shooter 'cause your 36 year old former all world center needs touches on the low block. With shaq, the suns are running the offense through a guy who has the lowest asst/game, and lowest asst/TO ratio in the rotation for crap sakes. The team was better defensively and offensively when shaq was used as a more defensive minded role player.

Amare has had the same problems since before, during, and soon to be after Shaq. He doesnt defend or rebound like a big should. Not only that he gets disinterested if things arn't going his way. He doesn't have "it" to be a franchise player. He's very good offensively (when he wants to be) but other than that what is he bringing to the table?

 

[pokerface]

A lot of these points are mute anyway because Amare can opt out next year and we arnt going to get stuck in another JJ scenario where we end up with junk players or no players at all if he just walks....OR Sarver has to pay Amare an obsene amount of money to keep him so we can watch the opposing teams pg outrebound the big fella.

 

[nowagimp]

A lot of these points are mute anyway because Amare can opt out next year and we arnt going to get stuck in another JJ scenario where we end up with junk players or no players at all if he just walks....OR Sarver has to pay Amare an obsene amount of money to keep him so we can watch the opposing teams pg outrebound the big fella.

Rasheed wallace has about the same rebounding as amare, actually less. If you watched the warriors games, you would have seen biedrens just going around shaq for offensive rebounds, it aint all on amare.

 

[green machine]

What are you even talking about? You keep repeating that but I'm not getting how that relates to Amare. We supposed to get guys to play defense and rebound for Amare? Isn't that what our bigs (meaning Amare) are supposed to do?? If KG has weaknesses to "hide" then what does that say about Amare? I mean KG grabs boards like a mutha and is all world defender....Amare can't even be average in those areas.

I'm saying that a smart team would recognize Amare's strengths and weaknesses, cater to his strengths and do the best they could to hide his weaknesses. The Suns do neither.

Everyone gets so wrapped up in what the guy can't do they seem to forget what he can do.

 

[pokerface]

Amare had six whole rebounds tonight and ZERO assists and steals.


Lebron had six rebounds too....but he's shorter and did it in with 4-1/2 minutes less gametime than Amare. Plus he had six assists and a couple steals.



I'm not expecting Amare to be Lebron but uhh...do they have to have the same number of boards?? Plus cant Amare pass the ball (for an assist) or have an occasional accidental steal once in awhile? This game is typical what I've been saying. AMARE IS ONE DIMENSIONAL...almost to the extreme. Lebron is a franchise player...Amare isnt.


Some of you really want to build around this guy?? Amare put up a bunch of points but did nothing else and the Suns lost by a wide margin. Greenmachine here is your proof. the offense DID run through Amare tonight and the Suns still lost and thats how it would be if we built around Amare. He scores but wont do the other things we need to win.

 

[pokerface]

I'm saying that a smart team would recognize Amare's strengths and weaknesses, cater to his strengths and do the best they could to hide his weaknesses. The Suns do neither.

Everyone gets so wrapped up in what the guy can't do they seem to forget what he can do.

But Amare doesnt do anything but score. The Suns are struggling and he has SIX rebounds? Zero assists...zero steals....zero defense. How much are we supposed to overlook green machine?

 

[green machine]

But Amare doesnt do anything but score. The Suns are struggling and he has SIX rebounds? Zero assists...zero steals....zero defense. How much are we supposed to overlook green machine?

Yes, I'd like for Amare to rebound more. Three more and he's at 9, is that good enough? They still get their asses kicked.

As for the other stats, for a big man who the offense isn't run through, the assists come and go. I don't expect him to get 5 a game. Steals? Same. As for defense, admittedly I didn't watch much of the game closely, but I doubt he was on Mo Williams or LeBron, and that's who killed them tonight.

 

[green machine]

Greenmachine here is your proof. the offense DID run through Amare tonight and the Suns still lost and thats how it would be if we built around Amare. He scores but wont do the other things we need to win.

They ran the offense through him yes, but the team isn't built to run through him. Bad comparison. Good effort, and it's no big deal, but to say this is proof is just plain silly.

Hey, you may be right, and maybe you can't build around the guy. But the Suns have not even tried.

 

[pokerface]

They ran the offense through him yes, but the team isn't built to run through him. Bad comparison. Good effort, and it's no big deal, but to say this is proof is just plain silly.

Hey, you may be right, and maybe you can't build around the guy. But the Suns have not even tried.

Isnt getting Nash spoon feeding Amare building around him? Isn't Shaq playing center to allow Amare to play PF a building move? What about Grant Hill or Richardson? You make it sound like Amare has no team to play or win with. What are we supposed to do to make Amare be all he can be....surround him with the Western All Stars?


See, by your own implicit reasoning you're saying Amare is lacking and cant/wont improve so we're supposed to bring in a group of players to mask his problems. Yeah, maybe we should bring in Jason Kidd for his rebounding since our powerforward won't do it...How stupid are we going to make this team look to cover for Amare?

 

[pokerface]

They ran the offense through him yes, but the team isn't built to run through him. Bad comparison. Good effort, and it's no big deal, but to say this is proof is just plain silly.

Hey, you may be right, and maybe you can't build around the guy. But the Suns have not even tried.

The Suns havn't tried to build around Amare? Who did they bring Nash in for....Barbosa?



Maybe the Suns should no longer try to build around Amare because Amare doesnt try to round out his game.

 

[SirStefan32]

What are we supposed to do to make Amare be all he can be....surround him with the Western All Stars?

If Suns did that he would probably complain and whine about wanting to be "the man".
In all seriousness though, the only way you can build around Stoudemire is by surrounding him with an outstanding point guard, defensive-minded Center who doesn't need touches on offense, and a bunch of three-point shooters who can defend. Camby, for example would be a perfect fit with Amare.
Theoretically, one could come up with a scenario in which Amare could be "the man" and win a title, but you'd need a very very specific supporting cast that would be very difficult to assemble.

 

[pokerface]

If Suns did that he would probably complain and whine about wanting to be "the man".
In all seriousness though, the only way you can build around Stoudemire is by surrounding him with an outstanding point guard, defensive-minded Center who doesn't need touches on offense, and a bunch of three-point shooters who can defend. Camby, for example would be a perfect fit with Amare.
Theoretically, one could come up with a scenario in which Amare could be "the man" and win a title, but you'd need a very very specific supporting cast that would be very difficult to assemble.

I agree with that.


Hence its far easier to trade Amare than to trade the rest of the team....especially since we don't know how long Amare's knees will hold out.