Buyout Candidates

[Proximo]

What "situation" is that?

Different coach, different expectations, and more scoring opportunity.

We are all frustrated for a reason about Ayton, he is not playing up to his potential. Basically I don't think anyone doubts Ayton has more physical talent than Sabonis, the only thing holding him back is mental.

I think there is a good chance coaching is to blame for that.

 

[95pro]

As MainStreet said, there's Jokic and Embiid, then everyone else.

 

[95pro]

Different coach, different expectations, and more scoring opportunity.

We are all frustrated for a reason about Ayton, he is not playing up to his potential. I think there is a good chance coaching is to blame for that.

Which coach are you referring to? Monty and his system? or the big man coach Bryant?

 

[GatorAZ]

Different coach, different expectations, and more scoring opportunity.

We are all frustrated for a reason about Ayton, he is not playing up to his potential. I think there is a good chance coaching is to blame for that.

Anthony Davis was first team all-NBA with Monty at 22 years old. If DA wants to reach a higher level it’s on him. How many bigs would kill to play with an elite yet unselfish guard and wings that can shoot?

 

[Covert Rain]

Different coach, different expectations, and more scoring opportunity.

We are all frustrated for a reason about Ayton, he is not playing up to his potential. Basically I don't think anyone doubts Ayton has more physical talent than Sabonis, the only thing holding him back is mental.

I think there is a good chance coaching is to blame for that.

I call bull on that. Ayton had a ton of opportunity to establish himself as the second scorer both last year and this year with injuries. He just couldn’t do it consistently.

Ayton’s problem is Ayton. Don’t get me wrong, I have issues with Monty myself but I don’t put Ayton on him.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Read Below

A. This entire statement is classifying him into a tier that you continuously left ambiguous to fit your narrative (this is the loose goal post). You literally classified other guys into tiers and then opined where Ayton stood in regards to those players and their respective tiers. It's a round about and passive aggressive manner but it is

B. I was more definitive in my classification of tiers using the metric that you presented in the same post as opposed to leaving it ambiguous. BUT YOU STOPPED READING and want to exist in an echo chamber of your thoughts.

C. I take your opinions as exactly what they are...opinions. i just don't feel like yours is of some higher merit or validity than mine. I'm always up for the discussion about the differences tho.

Welcome to the Suns board.
I think we can all agree that Ayton has longer arms then Sabonis

 

[Cheesebeef]

Anthony Davis was first team all-NBA with Monty at 22 years old. If DA wants to reach a higher level it’s on him. How many bigs would kill to play with an elite yet unselfish guard and wings that can shoot?

bingo. Monty’s also credited with helping develop Embiid. It’s not Monty’s fault Ayton still hasn’t learned how to consistently play with energy, develop handles or an outside shot and has inconsistent hands.

Maybe Monty hasn’t taught him how to seal smaller defenders than Ayton, but a physical specimen like Ayton really should have figured that out on his own by now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Welcome to the Suns board.
I think we can all agree that Ayton has longer arms then Sabonis

Lol

 

[PHI PHX PHAN]

Welcome to the Suns board.
I think we can all agree that Ayton has longer arms then Sabonis

Thank you. I don't think that's the case you see...sike naw just jokes but again appreciate the welcome

 

[Mainstreet]

Here are some NBA free agents still available.

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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

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A. This entire statement is classifying him into a tier that you continuously left ambiguous to fit your narrative (this is the loose goal post). You literally classified other guys into tiers and then opined where Ayton stood in regards to those players and their respective tiers. It's a round about and passive aggressive manner but it is

B. I was more definitive in my classification of tiers using the metric that you presented in the same post as opposed to leaving it ambiguous. BUT YOU STOPPED READING and want to exist in an echo chamber of your thoughts.

C. I take your opinions as exactly what they are...opinions. i just don't feel like yours is of some higher merit or validity than mine. I'm always up for the discussion about the differences tho.

Your A is just silliness. I classified him in a tier that I didn’t define. That’s your assertion. Cmon man.

We just are not going to agree here. And that’s fine.

That said, you still haven’t backed up your assertion that he equals or exceeds top tier bigs.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Different coach, different expectations, and more scoring opportunity.

We are all frustrated for a reason about Ayton, he is not playing up to his potential. Basically I don't think anyone doubts Ayton has more physical talent than Sabonis, the only thing holding him back is mental.

I think there is a good chance coaching is to blame for that.

Considering Ayton is averaging more shots per game than sabonis this season I don’t think that computes.

 

[PHI PHX PHAN]

Different coach, different expectations, and more scoring opportunity.

We are all frustrated for a reason about Ayton, he is not playing up to his potential. Basically I don't think anyone doubts Ayton has more physical talent than Sabonis, the only thing holding him back is mental.

I think there is a good chance coaching is to blame for that.

He came into the league to be a complimentary piece to the already established #1 Booker. Showed growth as the #2 in his first 2 years and then was hit with CP3 coming to town. That altered things drastically because he didn't have the luxury of just developing his game and putting up showcase #'s like a KAT who was the unequivocal #1 cornerstone piece and didn't have the expectation of championship or bust since his 3rd year. He and the likes of Sabonis and others benefit heavily from the luxury of being on non playoff teams or fringe teams for a significant part of their careers with way less expectation. None of them have even remotely been under the microscope of championship teams.

Your A is just silliness. I classified him in a tier that I didn’t define. That’s your assertion. Cmon man.

We just are not going to agree here. And that’s fine.

That said, you still haven’t backed up your assertion that he equals or exceeds top tier bigs.

Sigh...YOU (as in Ouchie) defined it with parameters by naming the players YOU chose in comparison. You just left ambiguous so you can use random points to debate. YOU gave the initial set of players to debate my statement of "top tier". YOU made comparisons with the examples YOU chose and said who YOU don't consider top tier and all...
You want to argue semantics by not specifically saying "tier" but you gave a barometer of what you consider top tier and some examples to establish a pecking order.
Then YOU ignored my response and now want me to progress the convo around the narrative you want to create.

If I said "I think Hellcats are just as good as a lot of luxury cars!" and you rebuttal that by saying "No way! They aren't Rolls Royce, Mercedes, and Cadlillac but they are just as good as most jaguars...but there are some Hondas that can keep up with Hellcats but I think Hondas are just ok..." I can infer what cars you consider luxury, a step below luxury and not luxury. That's what you did.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He came into the league to be a complimentary piece to the already established #1 Booker. Showed growth as the #2 in his first 2 years and then was hit with CP3 coming to town. That altered things drastically because he didn't have the luxury of just developing his game and putting up showcase #'s like a KAT who was the unequivocal #1 cornerstone piece and didn't have the expectation of championship or bust since his 3rd year. He and the likes of Sabonis and others benefit heavily from the luxury of being on non playoff teams or fringe teams for a significant part of their careers with way less expectation. None of them have even remotely been under the microscope of championship teams.

Sigh...YOU (as in Ouchie) defined it with parameters by naming the players YOU chose in comparison. You just left ambiguous so you can use random points to debate. YOU gave the initial set of players to debate my statement of "top tier". YOU made comparisons with the examples YOU chose and said who YOU don't consider top tier and all...
You want to argue semantics by not specifically saying "tier" but you gave a barometer of what you consider top tier and some examples to establish a pecking order.
Then YOU ignored my response and now want me to progress the convo around the narrative you want to create.

If I said "I think Hellcats are just as good as a lot of luxury cars!" and you rebuttal that by saying "No way! They aren't Rolls Royce, Mercedes, and Cadlillac but they are just as good as most jaguars...but there are some Hondas that can keep up with Hellcats but I think Hondas are just ok..." I can infer what cars you consider luxury, a step below luxury and not luxury. That's what you did.

I get it man, you don’t want to back up your claim so you deflect, or move the goalposts, or claim I’m doing something I’m not. All good. We are just going to disagree on your claim that Ayton equals/exceeds top tier centers head-to-head.

 

[PHI PHX PHAN]

I get it man, you don’t want to back up your claim so you deflect, or move the goalposts, or claim I’m doing something I’m not. All good. We are just going to disagree on your claim that Ayton equals/exceeds top tier centers head-to-head.

I guess how I back my claim is basically by my initial statement. When he faces most top tier centers he neutralizes their production. I was speaking on Centers primarily as that's the position he plays. That's the group I asked another poster to clarify his ranking amongst. You chimed in and extrapolated it beyond the scope I was speaking. You gave the examples in your own post and i applied my metric to your narrative to back it. I told you I have tiers that consist of ELITE, TOP TIER, and gave examples. Even doubled down and said I was speaking to his direct position group and comp (Bam,Sabonis,KAT, etc). Unless you want me to go look up his splits against every PF/C I don't see where I didn't back my claim in which you even supported in certain cases. You're intent on bashing Ayton and I've been ok with that posts ago.

 

[Covert Rain]

He came into the league to be a complimentary piece to the already established #1 Booker. Showed growth as the #2 in his first 2 years and then was hit with CP3 coming to town. That altered things drastically because he didn't have the luxury of just developing his game and putting up showcase #'s like a KAT who was the unequivocal #1 cornerstone piece and didn't have the expectation of championship or bust since his 3rd year. He and the likes of Sabonis and others benefit heavily from the luxury of being on non playoff teams or fringe teams for a significant part of their careers with way less expectation. None of them have even remotely been under the microscope of championship teams.

Sigh...YOU (as in Ouchie) defined it with parameters by naming the players YOU chose in comparison. You just left ambiguous so you can use random points to debate. YOU gave the initial set of players to debate my statement of "top tier". YOU made comparisons with the examples YOU chose and said who YOU don't consider top tier and all...
You want to argue semantics by not specifically saying "tier" but you gave a barometer of what you consider top tier and some examples to establish a pecking order.
Then YOU ignored my response and now want me to progress the convo around the narrative you want to create.

If I said "I think Hellcats are just as good as a lot of luxury cars!" and you rebuttal that by saying "No way! They aren't Rolls Royce, Mercedes, and Cadlillac but they are just as good as most jaguars...but there are some Hondas that can keep up with Hellcats but I think Hondas are just ok..." I can infer what cars you consider luxury, a step below luxury and not luxury. That's what you did.

This is getting silly. CP3 was not a hit to Ayton. Ayton even calls CP3 the best thing that ever happened to his career because of the pick and roll and easy buckets he gets. They had options to go and get shoot first guards but they brought in one of the best distributors of all time. Ayton’s point paints shot through the roof.

Since Ayton was drafted he was never expected be the go to guy like some of those other guys. He had less pressure. Most #1 have the immense pressure of turning around a franchise. If anything, Ayton has had it easy.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I guess how I back my claim is basically by my initial statement. When he faces most top tier centers he neutralizes their production. I was speaking on Centers primarily as that's the position he plays. That's the group I asked another poster to clarify his ranking amongst. You chimed in and extrapolated it beyond the scope I was speaking. You gave the examples in your own post and i applied my metric to your narrative to back it. I told you I have tiers that consist of ELITE, TOP TIER, and gave examples. Even doubled down and said I was speaking to his direct position group and comp (Bam,Sabonis,KAT, etc). Unless you want me to go look up his splits against every PF/C I don't see where I didn't back my claim in which you even supported in certain cases. You're intent on bashing Ayton and I've been ok with that posts ago.

Alright, I’ll let it go.


Welcome aboard. Always good to have more suns fans to discuss the team with.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is getting silly. CP3 was not a hit to Ayton. Ayton even calls CP3 the best thing that ever happened to his career because of the pick and roll and easy buckets he gets. They had options to go and get shoot first guards but they brought in one of the best distributors of all time. Ayton’s point paints shot through the roof.

Since Ayton was drafted he was never expected be the go to guy like some of those other guys. He had less pressure. Most #1 have the immense pressure of turning around a franchise. If anything, Ayton has had it easy.

Agreed. The whole “he didn’t have to carry the team so it’s not his fault he hasn’t developed into a star like others” argument is beyond reasonable imo. But everyone is entitled to their opinions.

 

[Hoop Head]

Here are some NBA free agents still available.

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We can add Nwaba and/or Ibaka for free now. Remember how we were supposed to trade Crowder for them? If Ibaka had anything in the tank he'd be a solid addition but the fact he's been dangled in trades as filler and waived makes me believe he's done.

Aldridge would have been good 2-3 years ago, maybe, as an extra big but I don't think he offers anything Bismack or Jock don't provide.

We don't need a guard or wing unless Payne goes back down, which I hope doesn't happen.

 

[Phrazbit]

Agreed. The whole “he didn’t have to carry the team so it’s not his fault he hasn’t developed into a star like others” argument is beyond reasonable imo. But everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I feel like I've defended Ayton many a time while also acknowledging that he certainly has his flaws.

The Suns are in the 3rd year of true relevance while he has been on the team and, despite him posting some very impressive statistical nights, I think this is his worst season in terms of impact on the court during that stretch.

The previous 2 years, he was consistently one of the best defensive bigs in the league, especially as a rare big who can switch and defend guards on the outside when forced to. He was especially good at cutting off driving lanes when players penetrated from the outside, doing so even before they threatened the rim. He's also been among the best screeners on offense during the previous 2 years.

He did a lot of the little things that don't show up in the stat sheet but sure as hell show up in the scoring margin and team splits.

He hasn't been doing that stuff consistently this year and it's been reflected in him going from one of our best on/off court split players to one of our worst.

He had his contract stuff, his 2nd round spat with Monty, there has been a tinge of "get mine" to his play this year. However, it does seem like his effort has improved a lot of late. Hopefully the ownership change and playing with a guy like Durant fires him up again. He does seem like the type of player to reeeeeeally want to step up his game when playing along side greatness.

Ayton's biggest problem is self motivation. If this team gets and stays healthy, he will have a chance to be a real hero or a real goat. I hope he, and the guys around him, use that to fire him up.

 

[PHI PHX PHAN]

This is getting silly. CP3 was not a hit to Ayton. Ayton even calls CP3 the best thing that ever happened to his career because of the pick and roll and easy buckets he gets. They had options to go and get shoot first guards but they brought in one of the best distributors of all time. Ayton’s point paints shot through the roof.

Since Ayton was drafted he was never expected be the go to guy like some of those other guys. He had less pressure. Most #1 have the immense pressure of turning around a franchise. If anything, Ayton has had it easy.

I think we're saying the same thing. There's benefit to being the #1 option and having everyone else brought in to fit around you. That main benefit usually shows up in better looking stats due to the leniency of being the guy. There is benefit in not being the #1 as well.
I wasn't saying it was a detriment, I was saying that prioritizing him as the #2 option took a hit because he fell into a more complimentary role than outright #2. They had immediate success with that and the concern with asserting him offensively shifted very early in his career...that's all.

 

[Sparky16]

And still I would rather have Ayton than those two. And still I am frustrated with Ayton. Conflicted. Yes.

He has basketball smarts. He has the ability. It just kinda seems like he doesn't like basketball all that much.

Basketball "smarts" is a huge reach, If he can't figure it out with CP3 and now Durant he never will

 

[Sparky16]

I feel like I've defended Ayton many a time while also acknowledging that he certainly has his flaws.

The Suns are in the 3rd year of true relevance while he has been on the team and, despite him posting some very impressive statistical nights, I think this is his worst season in terms of impact on the court during that stretch.

The previous 2 years, he was consistently one of the best defensive bigs in the league, especially as a rare big who can switch and defend guards on the outside when forced to. He was especially good at cutting off driving lanes when players penetrated from the outside, doing so even before they threatened the rim. He's also been among the best screeners on offense during the previous 2 years.

He did a lot of the little things that don't show up in the stat sheet but sure as hell show up in the scoring margin and team splits.

He hasn't been doing that stuff consistently this year and it's been reflected in him going from one of our best on/off court split players to one of our worst.

He had his contract stuff, his 2nd round spat with Monty, there has been a tinge of "get mine" to his play this year. However, it does seem like his effort has improved a lot of late. Hopefully the ownership change and playing with a guy like Durant fires him up again. He does seem like the type of player to reeeeeeally want to step up his game when playing along side greatness.

Ayton's biggest problem is self motivation. If this team gets and stays healthy, he will have a chance to be a real hero or a real goat. I hope he, and the guys around him, use that to fire him up.

So what you are saying, he got paid and his urgency/effort dropped off....... shocker

 

[95pro]

I feel like I've defended Ayton many a time while also acknowledging that he certainly has his flaws.

The Suns are in the 3rd year of true relevance while he has been on the team and, despite him posting some very impressive statistical nights, I think this is his worst season in terms of impact on the court during that stretch.

The previous 2 years, he was consistently one of the best defensive bigs in the league, especially as a rare big who can switch and defend guards on the outside when forced to. He was especially good at cutting off driving lanes when players penetrated from the outside, doing so even before they threatened the rim. He's also been among the best screeners on offense during the previous 2 years.

He did a lot of the little things that don't show up in the stat sheet but sure as hell show up in the scoring margin and team splits.

He hasn't been doing that stuff consistently this year and it's been reflected in him going from one of our best on/off court split players to one of our worst.

He had his contract stuff, his 2nd round spat with Monty, there has been a tinge of "get mine" to his play this year. However, it does seem like his effort has improved a lot of late. Hopefully the ownership change and playing with a guy like Durant fires him up again. He does seem like the type of player to reeeeeeally want to step up his game when playing along side greatness.

Ayton's biggest problem is self motivation. If this team gets and stays healthy, he will have a chance to be a real hero or a real goat. I hope he, and the guys around him, use that to fire him up.

I think teams figured this out and would purposely bring Ayton to the perimeter. The suns counter this season, has been for him to sag off. This leaves him in no mans land a lot of the times though, he doesn't know if he should contest or switch back.

Then teams like the Hawks and Mavs just shoot it before he even makes an attempt to defend.

 

[overseascardfan]

Surprised there is no movement on Wall. He's not a knock down shooter but can still get to the rim and create for others. Either he is injured or thinks he more than just a back up?