Calvin Pace

[slanidrac16]

SAy what you want, but Pace showed up last night. He was hustling to the ball right up till the whistle was blown. He put forth the effort that makes me think he finally "got it".

Why anybody would want to bad mouth his effort is beyond me. HAd he NOT shown up against the 2nd and 3rd string I would understand.

Geez, give the guy his due. This is a new season and we will need everybody to step up at one time or another as this season progresses.

 

[Stout]

Don't get me wrong...since the dude played well last night, at least he's giving it effort. I just snicker when the guy has a nice game against scrubs, JUST LIKE LAST YEAR, and all of a sudden the Pace lovers talk him up once again. Let's just wait and see before we get too overly optimistic on Pace.

 

[BigDavis75]

I'm so tired of all the Kenny King love on this board as LV said. Pace is by far a better player, KK has played in like 3 games. Pace got beat on the runs b/c if you'll notice the Boys ran to our D's weak side, where Koldy faced and we dropped a LB down at the line so Koldy or Davis was'nt vulnerable. When the Cardsd do this and the opposing team runs to our weakside we'll often get beat. Check the tapes.

 

[BACH]

SAy what you want, but Pace showed up last night. He was hustling to the ball right up till the whistle was blown. He put forth the effort that makes me think he finally "got it".

Why anybody would want to bad mouth his effort is beyond me. HAd he NOT shown up against the 2nd and 3rd string I would understand.

Geez, give the guy his due. This is a new season and we will need everybody to step up at one time or another as this season progresses.

Exellent post!!!

Pace was awesome against 2nd and 3rd teamers, so why turn it into a negative thing? I just find funny that Rolle and King looks ready to start, while Pace (who per reports outplayed both of them) doesn't even have a remote chance of contributing.

Pace was taken 15 spots too high and per definition a reach! Get over it and start looking forward!!!!

Nobody knows how Pace would do as a starter now. He didn't do anything as a rookie, did good in limited time last season, has improved and is surrounded by much better players now.

 

[az1965]

I would say late 2nd rounder or even early 3rd rounder. He was really a reach.

 

[BACH]

I would say late 2nd rounder or even early 3rd rounder. He was really a reach.

That was his initial ranking - yes, but Pace did shoot up the board just before draft day. Rumors said that the Chiefs traded down to #30 and had him targeted with that pick. Whether that is true or not, I don't know, but Calvin did shoot up in the top-mid 2nd round range just before the draft.

 

[kerouac9]

Pace destroyed Vollers Saturday night, but that's why he's third on the Cowboys depth chart. He looked good, but he doesn't look anything like the first round pick he was.

He looked a lot like the late-second round pick he was supposed to be. If you start basing your personnel decisions on what the Chiefs are doing, you're already in trouble.

 

[JeffGollin]

Think "depth." Think "rotation."

Add a healthy (!@#$) Ken King and we're one strong backup NT from being in sensational shape on our D-line.

Someone (Ian or Totally Red) observed in Prescott that Pace seemed to have added bulk and strength since last season. (That's precisely what Dennis insisted he do). Maybe he did just that. And maybe just maybe it paid off in production and Calvin's success was more than just "playing against backup offensive units."

 

[kerouac9]

Ross Koloedji looked solid as a second-team NT on the "slant" Saturday night. He's not a playmaker (though neither is Davis), but I'm not going to have problems sleeping at night if he has to take 15-20 snaps a game there.

 

[Duckjake]

I'm so tired of all the Kenny King love on this board as LV said. Pace is by far a better player, KK has played in like 3 games. Pace got beat on the runs b/c if you'll notice the Boys ran to our D's weak side, where Koldy faced and we dropped a LB down at the line so Koldy or Davis was'nt vulnerable. When the Cardsd do this and the opposing team runs to our weakside we'll often get beat. Check the tapes.

The difference is that Pace was taken in the first round and King in the 5th.

Naturally people are going to be excited about a 5th round selection showing promise and down on a 1st round selection who is not starter material so far.

Fortunately for Pace more people are accepting the reality that he should never have been a first rounder and adjusting their expectations.

BTW: King looked like he was in good shape, had good movement, and has good size, using the eyeball test and not the fairy tale stats the team puts out, which is something the Cards need on the DL.

 

[Russ Smith]

Pace destroyed Vollers Saturday night, but that's why he's third on the Cowboys depth chart. He looked good, but he doesn't look anything like the first round pick he was.

He looked a lot like the late-second round pick he was supposed to be. If you start basing your personnel decisions on what the Chiefs are doing, you're already in trouble.

After the draft Pace said that 2 other teams had told him they were going to pick him in the first round, and the rumor was that one of those was the GIants (they took DT William Joseph). Look at the comment on SI's draft board after the pick,


"A lot of folks may figure this is too high for Pace, but the Cards need the pass rusher -- they had an NFL-low 21 sacks in '02 -- and this is a player with huge upside, as they say. Though he's not blindingly fast, he has a lot of tools that have piqued interest around the league. This first round is more than halfway through and there have been two quarterbacks taken and no running backs. "

18 was high for Pace but the idea that Pace was a late 2nd rounder or 3rd rounder as people keep saying is simply not true. 2003 was not a deep year in the draft, especially at DE, if Pace hadn't broken his leg late in the season he might never have been rated out of the first round, midseason in his senior year even Kiper will admit he had Pace rated a first rounder( this was posted right after we drafted him I THINK Kiper had him rated #16 on his big board which of course does NOT include non seniors at that point). Only after he got hurt did he start to slide.

NOw he certainly hasn't played like we would have hoped but he does have skill it's just that people are comparing him to what Suggs has done and he obviously hasn't come close to Suggs.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

After the draft Pace said that 2 other teams had told him they were going to pick him in the first round, and the rumor was that one of those was the GIants (they took DT William Joseph). Look at the comment on SI's draft board after the pick,


"A lot of folks may figure this is too high for Pace, but the Cards need the pass rusher -- they had an NFL-low 21 sacks in '02 -- and this is a player with huge upside, as they say. Though he's not blindingly fast, he has a lot of tools that have piqued interest around the league. This first round is more than halfway through and there have been two quarterbacks taken and no running backs. "

18 was high for Pace but the idea that Pace was a late 2nd rounder or 3rd rounder as people keep saying is simply not true. 2003 was not a deep year in the draft, especially at DE, if Pace hadn't broken his leg late in the season he might never have been rated out of the first round, midseason in his senior year even Kiper will admit he had Pace rated a first rounder( this was posted right after we drafted him I THINK Kiper had him rated #16 on his big board which of course does NOT include non seniors at that point). Only after he got hurt did he start to slide.

NOw he certainly hasn't played like we would have hoped but he does have skill it's just that people are comparing him to what Suggs has done and he obviously hasn't come close to Suggs.

Pace was called by the Giants on draft day and said he was their pick. That, for what it is worth, comes straight from the horses mouth!

 

[kerouac9]

After the draft Pace said that 2 other teams had told him they were going to pick him in the first round, and the rumor was that one of those was the GIants (they took DT William Joseph). Look at the comment on SI's draft board after the pick,


"A lot of folks may figure this is too high for Pace, but the Cards need the pass rusher -- they had an NFL-low 21 sacks in '02 -- and this is a player with huge upside, as they say. Though he's not blindingly fast, he has a lot of tools that have piqued interest around the league. This first round is more than halfway through and there have been two quarterbacks taken and no running backs. "

18 was high for Pace but the idea that Pace was a late 2nd rounder or 3rd rounder as people keep saying is simply not true. 2003 was not a deep year in the draft, especially at DE, if Pace hadn't broken his leg late in the season he might never have been rated out of the first round, midseason in his senior year even Kiper will admit he had Pace rated a first rounder( this was posted right after we drafted him I THINK Kiper had him rated #16 on his big board which of course does NOT include non seniors at that point). Only after he got hurt did he start to slide.

NOw he certainly hasn't played like we would have hoped but he does have skill it's just that people are comparing him to what Suggs has done and he obviously hasn't come close to Suggs.

That quote that you put up there doesn't do a lot of validate what the rest of your post says, Russ. It seems to say, "Well, none of us expected him to be a first rounder, but the Cards were desperate." Do you forget that ESPN didn't even have the highlight package on Pace when he was picked? It was blank stares all around the table, including from Kiper. Maybe he was a mid-second-rounder if teams didn't start getting desperate, but aren't we then just splitting hairs?

Maybe Pace was a comperable situation to Dennis Johnson (which sounds a lot like what you're saying), but it doesn't change the fact that Pace was a reach when he was taken (which is what the article says), and has not performed to his draft status since. I don't compare him to Suggs, just because that's impossible. But I do compare him to what one expects of a player taken at that position, and he's been as big a disappointment as anyone. It's cold solace that Jerome McDougle and the other D-linemen have stunk it up, as well.

 

[kerouac9]

Pace was called by the Giants on draft day and said he was their pick. That, for what it is worth, comes straight from the horses mouth!

Did he tell you that himself? Because what he said on draft day was that he'd been called by the Chiefs, but they were picking 10 spots below the Cards.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Did he tell you that himself? Because what he said on draft day was that he'd been called by the Chiefs, but they were picking 10 spots below the Cards.

As a matter of fact yes he did.....

 

[RedStorm]

That quote that you put up there doesn't do a lot of validate what the rest of your post says, Russ. It seems to say, "Well, none of us expected him to be a first rounder, but the Cards were desperate." Do you forget that ESPN didn't even have the highlight package on Pace when he was picked? It was blank stares all around the table, including from Kiper. Maybe he was a mid-second-rounder if teams didn't start getting desperate, but aren't we then just splitting hairs?

Maybe Pace was a comperable situation to Dennis Johnson (which sounds a lot like what you're saying), but it doesn't change the fact that Pace was a reach when he was taken (which is what the article says), and has not performed to his draft status since. I don't compare him to Suggs, just because that's impossible. But I do compare him to what one expects of a player taken at that position, and he's been as big a disappointment as anyone. It's cold solace that Jerome McDougle and the other D-linemen have stunk it up, as well.

I don't think you can hold Pace to an expectation because the Cards front office screwed up and picked him way too high. I did not like the pick at that spot. I never liked the trade. It was a panic move. But, that is the past. I am hoping the best for Pace. I thought he looked good and with good coaching he will turn out to be prettty decent. But, we should drop the draft status talk and the expectations that go along with it because we all know he was a reach. We should not hold him to someone elses mistake. What should have Pace done...Say, "excuse me but you picked me way too high. Put me back and try again.". He did not ask to be a #1 pick. It just so happened that he was a #1 pick.

JMO

 

[JeffGollin]

When Pace was drafted becomes fair game when you're discussing past drafting strategies.

But when evaluating any player, I think its best to follow the principle that "all the draft does is get you on the training camp roster." Once you're here, you're gonna have to prove you're good enough to make the squad and/or start).

We hear that Pace was told (in no uncertain terms) by Dennis Green that he had to get bigger and stronger during the offseason. Apparently, he took Dennis seriously and it paid off in the first preseason game.

Did he look good because he was playing against backups? Or did he look so dominant because of all the hard work he did in the offseason? We're not going to know the answer for awhile, but one thing's for sure: It's sure a lot better for the Cardinals that he showed up and looked good than had he sucked.

 

[Russ Smith]

Maybe Pace was a comperable situation to Dennis Johnson (which sounds a lot like what you're saying), but it doesn't change the fact that Pace was a reach when he was taken (which is what the article says), and has not performed to his draft status since. I don't compare him to Suggs, just because that's impossible. But I do compare him to what one expects of a player taken at that position, and he's been as big a disappointment as anyone. It's cold solace that Jerome McDougle and the other D-linemen have stunk it up, as well.

Hang on why would you possibly compare Pace to guys taken there in other years? The reality in the draft is it's done once a year and you can only take the guys who are in THAT draft. If there were other DE's we should have taken that year and passed on for Pace that would be a good argument. But saying so and so taken at 18 in 2002 is a much better player than Pace is irrelevant because he wasn't in the draft where we took Pace. THere are strong drafts and weak drafts, in terms of overall talent, and 2003 was consensus a weak draft. Is Tyler Brayton, Chris Kelsay, Osi Umenyiora or DeWayne White clearly better than Calvin Pace, those are the 4 guys taken after him at DE(the next 4). Of the 4 only Brayton would I say has been better and not dramatically the Raiders aren't exactly overwhelmed with what he's done, 5 career sacks. I think he's better against the run than Pace but we didn't pick Pace for run defense we picked him to help our pass rush.

The point of the SI quote was that it's not just some Cards fans that say the pick may have surprised you but the guy DOES have talent.

Both Pace and Johnson were on the list of fast risers right before the draft, the mock draft in the SJ Mercury News the morning of that draft had Pace going in the first round and Johnson the first pick in round 2. Not saying they were great picks but the stuff about Pace is overblown it's entirely possible he still goes first round if we don't pick him.

 

[john h]

Give him his due. 2 sacks. Cards defintly can come and get you this year.

He looked very good to me. Perhaps he will end up justifying his draft position.

 

[Russ Smith]

Just to elaborate here the main argument people seem to have with Pace is jeez we used a first round pick on him and then signed Berry to a big deal one offseason and Okeafor to a big deal the next, Pace was a waste.

I said it then and I'll say it now, Okeafor is a good player and he'll really help this team but I never quite understood the rationale in giving 5 years 25 million to a guy about to turn 29 when we could have possibly gotten Derrick Burgess who signed for 5 years 17.5 million with Oakland. Okeafor is coming off a career high 8.5 sacks and will undoubtedly be a good player, he plays hard, he's a bit undersized but competes and is by all accounts a good guy in the locker room. But 5 years 25 million is a lot for a guy who's not a great pass rusher. Burgess is a guy who looks to be on the verge of a major breakout, 6 sacks as a rookie, barely played for 2 years, and then 2.5 regular season but 3 big post season sacks (vick twice) as the Eagles suddenly realized hey this guy can really rush the passer and started using him as a situational pass rusher.

While I applaud the signing of Okeafor, I thought then and think now Burgess would have been the better signing. I think if he were a Card we probably wouldn't even be debating Pace right now we'd all be raving about Burgess(who positively destroyed the 49ers OL in the first half of their game).

Pace is a guy in the wrong place, we all saw what Suggs has done, we all saw how much money we gave to Berry and Okeafor, so it's hard to not get mad at Pace for not being better.

 

[RedStorm]

When Pace was drafted becomes fair game when you're discussing past drafting strategies.
But when evaluating any player, I think its best to follow the principle that "all the draft does is get you on the training camp roster." Once you're here, you're gonna have to prove you're good enough to make the squad and/or start).

We hear that Pace was told (in no uncertain terms) by Dennis Green that he had to get bigger and stronger during the offseason. Apparently, he took Dennis seriously and it paid off in the first preseason game.

Did he look good because he was playing against backups? Or did he look so dominant because of all the hard work he did in the offseason? We're not going to know the answer for awhile, but one thing's for sure: It's sure a lot better for the Cardinals that he showed up and looked good than had he sucked.

I agree and strategy, or lack thereof, was in the front office. Holding Pace to expectations that he could not fullfill is absurd IMO.

Thankfully, there is a coaching staff that will try to get the best out of our players. Pace seems to be responding. He is taking critisism to heart and doing something about it.

Also, I agree with your last comment. He looked good and it is far better than looking bad against lesser talent.

 

[kerouac9]

Hang on why would you possibly compare Pace to guys taken there in other years? The reality in the draft is it's done once a year and you can only take the guys who are in THAT draft. If there were other DE's we should have taken that year and passed on for Pace that would be a good argument. But saying so and so taken at 18 in 2002 is a much better player than Pace is irrelevant because he wasn't in the draft where we took Pace. THere are strong drafts and weak drafts, in terms of overall talent, and 2003 was consensus a weak draft. Is Tyler Brayton, Chris Kelsay, Osi Umenyiora or DeWayne White clearly better than Calvin Pace, those are the 4 guys taken after him at DE(the next 4). Of the 4 only Brayton would I say has been better and not dramatically the Raiders aren't exactly overwhelmed with what he's done, 5 career sacks. I think he's better against the run than Pace but we didn't pick Pace for run defense we picked him to help our pass rush.

The point of the SI quote was that it's not just some Cards fans that say the pick may have surprised you but the guy DOES have talent.

Both Pace and Johnson were on the list of fast risers right before the draft, the mock draft in the SJ Mercury News the morning of that draft had Pace going in the first round and Johnson the first pick in round 2. Not saying they were great picks but the stuff about Pace is overblown it's entirely possible he still goes first round if we don't pick him.

I'd say that Osi and Kelsay have out-performed Calvin Pace, but that's a statement that is admittedly hard to back up. But isn't there a point where you have to say that a guy isn't playing like a mid-first rounder, regardless of the draft where he was taken? Don't you expect a first rounder to be starting by his third season, and if you're still having to sign high-dollar FAs at his position, something's wrong?

Aside: LV, even if the Giants were going to take Pace, he would have been seven spots lower, which still means that Cal was a reach. End aside.

Anyway, can't you say that this team would probably be better if we'd drafted Boller, McGahee, Dallas Clark, or even Kwame Harris instead of Pace? Don't you think we could have had a UFA who would have put in the 16 starts and one sack that Pace turned in his rookie season?

I'm not arguing about B. Johnson. He might have been taking a couple spots too high, but there wasn't a lot of doubt that he was the 3rd best WR in the draft.

Regardless, that draft day was an embarassment that can't be spackled over.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I'd say that Osi and Kelsay have out-performed Calvin Pace, but that's a statement that is admittedly hard to back up. But isn't there a point where you have to say that a guy isn't playing like a mid-first rounder, regardless of the draft where he was taken? Don't you expect a first rounder to be starting by his third season, and if you're still having to sign high-dollar FAs at his position, something's wrong?

Aside: LV, even if the Giants were going to take Pace, he would have been seven spots lower, which still means that Cal was a reach. End aside.

Anyway, can't you say that this team would probably be better if we'd drafted Boller, McGahee, Dallas Clark, or even Kwame Harris instead of Pace? Don't you think we could have had a UFA who would have put in the 16 starts and one sack that Pace turned in his rookie season?

I'm not arguing about B. Johnson. He might have been taking a couple spots too high, but there wasn't a lot of doubt that he was the 3rd best WR in the draft.

Regardless, that draft day was an embarassment that can't be spackled over.

And as bad as this pass rush was in 2002 you would have been the first one screaming had the Cards skipped on a DE all together and taken someone else. Oh and by the way Boller? Umm yeah, I would rather have Pace thank you very much!

I can see both sides...was he drafted too soon? Maybe, but on everyones board, and considering the weak draft, he was taken as early as some of these "late 2nd rounder" people are saying.

I agree with Russ, this isnt a good place for Pace right now. He wont ever live up to his draft status, and he is backing up a pro bowler. And quite honestly, I still think he would be more effective backing up Okeafor. There is no question he makes this team, how much PT he will get is yet to be seen, but I cant forsee it being very much!

 

[Russ Smith]

I'd say that Osi and Kelsay have out-performed Calvin Pace, but that's a statement that is admittedly hard to back up. But isn't there a point where you have to say that a guy isn't playing like a mid-first rounder, regardless of the draft where he was taken? Don't you expect a first rounder to be starting by his third season, and if you're still having to sign high-dollar FAs at his position, something's wrong?

Aside: LV, even if the Giants were going to take Pace, he would have been seven spots lower, which still means that Cal was a reach. End aside.

Anyway, can't you say that this team would probably be better if we'd drafted Boller, McGahee, Dallas Clark, or even Kwame Harris instead of Pace? Don't you think we could have had a UFA who would have put in the 16 starts and one sack that Pace turned in his rookie season?

I'm not arguing about B. Johnson. He might have been taking a couple spots too high, but there wasn't a lot of doubt that he was the 3rd best WR in the draft.

Regardless, that draft day was an embarassment that can't be spackled over.

Kelsay has 4.5 sacks in 2 years with Buffalo, Osi has 8, Pace has 6. Osi clearly had the best 2nd year of the 3 of them. The Raiders signed Burgess because they're not happy with Brayton, they're moving Brayton to a new spot again, just as they did last year.

Boller has been a much bigger bust than Pace, they traded future picks to pick him and he's been terrible. McGahee I liked , Clark is good but neither guy was going to help our pass rush and we needed a pass rush so they took a guy they hoped would give us a better pass rush. IF you want to say drafting need often backfires, I'll agree, but the fact is we made that trade so that we could get a WR and DE in the first round because we had such big needs at both spots. We weren't going to take a QB, RB.

Kwame Harris has been a bust to date too, he's completely bombed at LT and has been moved back to RT, Nolan praised Harris for his improvemed play against Oakland but if you saw the game Harris still got beat more than once on pass plays and they didn't draft Harris to play RT they drafted him to play LT, he simply can't play it. It was a weak draft at the top, the best solution was to stay pat and take Suggs or Leftwich. I hadn't seen much of Suggs in college and grossly understimated how good he was, and I really felt we should have taken Leftwich. If the argument is don't trade down, I agree, but once you trade down there weren't a lot of other guys on the board to pick there that would have helped our pass rush.

If Suggs had been picked after Pace this debate would be a non issue, but most of the DE's taken after Suggs are not clearly any better than him, it's not like we reached for him with much better pass rushers on the board.

 

[kerouac9]

Kelsay has 4.5 sacks in 2 years with Buffalo, Osi has 8, Pace has 6. Osi clearly had the best 2nd year of the 3 of them. The Raiders signed Burgess because they're not happy with Brayton, they're moving Brayton to a new spot again, just as they did last year.

Boller has been a much bigger bust than Pace, they traded future picks to pick him and he's been terrible. McGahee I liked , Clark is good but neither guy was going to help our pass rush and we needed a pass rush so they took a guy they hoped would give us a better pass rush. IF you want to say drafting need often backfires, I'll agree, but the fact is we made that trade so that we could get a WR and DE in the first round because we had such big needs at both spots. We weren't going to take a QB, RB.

Kwame Harris has been a bust to date too, he's completely bombed at LT and has been moved back to RT, Nolan praised Harris for his improvemed play against Oakland but if you saw the game Harris still got beat more than once on pass plays and they didn't draft Harris to play RT they drafted him to play LT, he simply can't play it. It was a weak draft at the top, the best solution was to stay pat and take Suggs or Leftwich. I hadn't seen much of Suggs in college and grossly understimated how good he was, and I really felt we should have taken Leftwich. If the argument is don't trade down, I agree, but once you trade down there weren't a lot of other guys on the board to pick there that would have helped our pass rush.

If Suggs had been picked after Pace this debate would be a non issue, but most of the DE's taken after Suggs are not clearly any better than him, it's not like we reached for him with much better pass rushers on the board.

I think we can agree that drafting for need, when your need is exceedingly thin in that draft, is always a bad idea. Pace may have been a good pick if you already had, say, Michael Strahan, playing on the other side, but for a team that was looking for a 10-sack guy was a horrible move.

Personally, I think that Boller is a bust in B-more because of what they gave up to get him. Don't you think that Boller would have contributed more to the Cards at this point than Pace has? You don't think that Boller would be starting here right now? Really?

McGahee or Clark would have been much, much better than Pace. I guess we'll see in two years when Pace is gone and performing (or not) for some other team.

The Trade was bad. Bad, bad, bad. We reached for Pace with better players on the board. We could have drafted the Packers MLB and played him on the outside as a situational pass rusher and gotten more.

I'm just saying that because Pace lit up Kyle Vollers doesn't do anything to exonerate the pick that he was.