Cam breaks the bank with a monster contract...

[kerouac9]

He also threw 17 INTs. A TD:INT ratio of 21:17 stinks. Especially for someone trying to be put in the upper echelon of QBs. He was also sacked 35 times that year. His offensive line wasn't that poor at the time either. He runs into sacks quite often.

My brother who lives in Charlotte and watches every game tells me that is his weakness. Takes way too many sacks than he should for someone with that type of mobility.

Explain to me again why his rushing TDs don't count? 31:17 isn't great, but it was his rookie season.

Carolina's offensive line last year was... a challenge. This year it's a dumpster fire.

 

[cardpa]

Explain to me again why his rushing TDs don't count? 31:17 isn't great, but it was his rookie season.

Carolina's offensive line last year was... a challenge. This year it's a dumpster fire.

What do rushing TDs have to do with passing TDs? Why would you count rushing TDs in his passing stats? I believe Dreamcastrocks was pointing out that his passing stats which has nothing to do with what newton did running the ball. I am sure some of those were designed runs and some were down and goal from inside the 5 yd line so I don't understand what they have to do with Newton's passing stats. Maybe you can explain how they do count.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Explain to me again why his rushing TDs don't count? 31:17 isn't great, but it was his rookie season.

Carolina's offensive line last year was... a challenge. This year it's a dumpster fire.

Because rushing TDs haven't ever been calculated in QB rating.

 

[kerouac9]

What do rushing TDs have to do with passing TDs? Why would you count rushing TDs in his passing stats? I believe Dreamcastrocks was pointing out that his passing stats which has nothing to do with what newton did running the ball. I am sure some of those were designed runs and some were down and goal from inside the 5 yd line so I don't understand what they have to do with Newton's passing stats. Maybe you can explain how they do count.

Because they all count for 7 points. Why don't you count all the TDs he scores vs. his turnovers, and not just the passing ones. He couldn't throw passing TD on that series because he'd already rushed for the points.

If you're arguing about him as a passer, there isn't much of an argument going on here. He's underwhelming as a pure passer. As a quarterback with a broad set of tools, he's at least on the same level as Carson Palmer, only much younger.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Because they all count for 7 points. Why don't you count all the TDs he scores vs. his turnovers, and not just the passing ones. He couldn't throw passing TD on that series because he'd already rushed for the points.

If you're arguing about him as a passer, there isn't much of an argument going on here. He's underwhelming as a pure passer. As a quarterback with a broad set of tools, he's at least on the same level as Carson Palmer, only much younger.

I'm not so sure you can compare him to Palmer. Since we are talking about his 21:17 season, or 31:17 for comparison sake, Cam has never had a QB rating over 90. Palmer has gone over 90 3 times, including 100 once in his 32:12 season.

Even if you want to add in his rushing TDs, he still doesn't make enough good decisions. If he didn't have the scramble ability, he wouldn't be in the league. Again, his mobility has hurt him many, many times too. Trust me when I tell you that he raises the sack totals by running into them. We both know that sacks can be just as bad as a turnover in killing momentum and drives. He forces throws, routinely overthrows his receivers, and isn't accurate when he does throw.

He pouts when things don't go his way and talks bad about his own fans. There is no way I'd want him.

 

[PDXChris]

Because they all count for 6 points. Why don't you count all the TDs he scores vs. his turnovers, and not just the passing ones. He couldn't throw passing TD on that series because he'd already rushed for the points.

If you're arguing about him as a passer, there isn't much of an argument going on here. He's underwhelming as a pure passer. As a quarterback with a broad set of tools, he's at least on the same level as Carson Palmer, only much younger.

FTFY

But I agree with you. I would take Cam in a heartbeat.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm not so sure you can compare him to Palmer. Since we are talking about his 21:17 season, or 31:17 for comparison sake, Cam has never had a QB rating over 90. Palmer has gone over 90 3 times, including 100 once in his 32:12 season.

Even if you want to add in his rushing TDs, he still doesn't make enough good decisions. If he didn't have the scramble ability, he wouldn't be in the league. Again, his mobility has hurt him many, many times too. Trust me when I tell you that he raises the sack totals by running into them. We both know that sacks can be just as bad as a turnover in killing momentum and drives. He forces throws, routinely overthrows his receivers, and isn't accurate when he does throw.

He pouts when things don't go his way and talks bad about his own fans. There is no way I'd want him.

I just think that pointing to a passer rating as the only/main/best evaluator of overall performance as a quarterback is a way to tilt the playing field and scoring debate points while not really adding to the whole picture. Total QBR isn't a perfect stat, but it at least attempts to combine run and passing efficiency to create a kind of success rate weighted by moment and a bunch of other stuff:

Palmer: Newton

2014 - 64.8: 56.9
2013 - 51.89: 56.17
2012 - 46.82: 54.1
2011 - 59.67: 56.16

I don't see a ton of difference there.

 

[TJ]

I'm not the biggest fan of QBR, but it's the only measurement I know of that takes into account the entire package, which includes running and throwing. Subjectively, ESPN considers the 50s as "average."

As you can see below, Cam ranked 16th in the NFL in QBR:





I'd imagine had Carson played more games, he'd be higher as well.

 

[daves]

Because they all count for 7 points. Why don't you count all the TDs he scores vs. his turnovers, and not just the passing ones. He couldn't throw passing TD on that series because he'd already rushed for the points.

Why didn't you count ALL his turnovers, vs. just his INTs? If you want to count his rushing TDs, you should count his fumbles... which brings you to 31:22 in the TD:TO ratio.

...dbs

 

[kerouac9]

Why didn't you count ALL his turnovers, vs. just his INTs? If you want to count his rushing TDs, you should count his fumbles... which brings you to 31:22 in the TD:TO ratio.

...dbs

Lost fumbles? Because if the get the ball back, it's like an INT bouncing off a defensive back's hands.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Lost fumbles? Because if the get the ball back, it's like an INT bouncing off a defensive back's hands.

There is a stat for that already. It's called an incomplete pass. You can't say in one breath that we should include all of his TDs and then say we shouldn't include all of his turnovers.

 

[kerouac9]

There is a stat for that already. It's called an incomplete pass. You can't say in one breath that we should include all of his TDs and then say we shouldn't include all of his turnovers.

Yes--the turnovers--fumbles lost. Duh.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yes--the turnovers--fumbles lost. Duh.

You don't think pulling the ball on the ground matters as long as you get it back? Seriously?

 

[kerouac9]

You don't think pulling the ball on the ground matters as long as you get it back? Seriously?

It depends on the situation. It matters less with a quarterback than it does with a running back or wide receiver, because QBs are more likely to recover the fumble.

For fairness's sake, should we count 18 fumbles over the last four years from Carson Palmer as turnovers? We'll add in his 2 rushing TDs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

good gravy we need training camp to start...

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It depends on the situation. It matters less with a quarterback than it does with a running back or wide receiver, because QBs are more likely to recover the fumble.

For fairness's sake, should we count 18 fumbles over the last four years from Carson Palmer as turnovers? We'll add in his 2 rushing TDs.

Why not? If we are comparing the whole package, it matters.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

good gravy we need training camp to start...

lol

 

[kerouac9]

Why not? If we are comparing the whole package, it matters.

Palmer has 72 TDs and and 73 turnovers (as defined) over the last four seasons (including one where he started 6 games and another when he started 10.

Last four years, Newton has 115 TDs and 84 turnovers (as defined) and missed a total of two games.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I like Newton but I'd rather have Palmer under center for the Cards for the next 2 years.

 

[Darkside]

I like Palmer but would rather have BA groom Cam for those two years. ☺

 

[cardpa]

I like Palmer but would rather have BA groom Cam for those two years. ☺

I'm not sure BA would want Newton. He may have the physical traits BA likes however I don't think Newton has the mental makeup BA likes. Newton has never impressed me as a player dedicated to his craft.

 

[cardncubfan]

good gravy we need training camp to start...

I like Newton but I'd rather have Palmer under center for the Cards for the next 2 years.

This.