Can Kolb Now take the Reins?

[52brandon]

That was the only "decent" game he had, nothing close to "high level" performance.

18/27 (66.7%), 309 yds, 2 TD, 0 ints, 2 fumbles (lost 1)

We had total of 10 passing first downs vs. 17 for Panthers.
Yards/pass 10.9.
Red zone 1/3
Possession 27:13 vs. 32:47

Again, not bad but nothing to rave about either.

I don't believe Skelton has had a better game...

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Can Kolb Now take the Reigns?

LOL - was in Camarillo, CA when I saw "reigns" instead of "reins." Only Tapatalk access and no way to edit the title until we drove back.

Walked in the door just now and corrected it.

Whew. Feels better.

BIM

 

[Stout]

I truly believe our ceiling with Skelton is 8-8, but with Kolb it's 12-4. Flame away, call me stupid, whatever, but that's why I'm staying on the KK bandwagon.

Yeah, no, I'm not going to try to quantify the QB play of this team due to W-L record. If we did, however, Kolb would be completely and utterly destroyed by Skelton. Compare their records. Just sayin'.

Based on my uninformed observations of their play.

However, as a life long fan of the NFL, at 43, I've watched a lot of QB play. A lot.

I'd like to think that I'm able to tell when a professional QB has the ability to perform at a level that will substantially contribute to a winning effort for his team.

There are a lot of great things about John Skelton, and I appreciate everything he's done for our team. However, after watching him closely over the past two years, I do not believe he can consistently perform at level that will substantially contribute to our team's winning effort.

On the other hand, I've seen Kolb play at a high enough level (for an entire game) to make me believe that he might be the answer. I'm definitely not sold on him though. If he doesn't perform well (QB rating for the season of at least 88) this year, I think the team needs to make QB a top priority for 2013.

And you've also clearly learned how to put the blinders on so as to evaluate the QB you are backing in a more positive light. Kolb has been in the league for how many years, and had solid, 1st and 2nd string development for how many of those years? And Skelton?

Let me help you with that last question: Zip, zilch, zero. Skelton got nothing but 3rd and 4th string scraps in practice his first training camp. Suddenly, he was thrust into the lineup his rookie season--out of Fordham, where he had nowhere near any kind of decent college development, let alone pro development--without any practice. He was utterly swamped that rookie season, yet went 2-2 in that rookie season. That feat is incredible for a rookie 5th round QB from Fordham.

He then had exactly no offseason development, and next to no training camp development, due to the lockout. He ends up 5-2 in his second season, STILL without any developmental time on any significant level. He never even had real college development--Fordham is not known for coaching QBs and prepping them for the NFL.

And yet you're willing to say he's just an average NFL QB at best, at the very best. Judgmental much? How about we actually have him get at least a wee bit of actual solid coaching from actual NFL coaches, not 3rd and 4th string camp arm coaching sessions. How about he gets a full offseason taking snaps with the 1st and 2nd teams before we judge? And how about we actually wait and see if Kolb can utilize the pocket like a normal QB before we go throwing out 12-4 ideas with him, eh?

Kolb, 12-4 potential. And yet you don't want Skelton to get any chance before limiting him. Oh brother. Uninformed is right.

 

[THESMEL]

Kolb

Kolb was better beating Dallas, Skelton struggled early and pulled rabbits out his AZ late in games, but i'll take it. and I'll like it - of course nobody has mention Beanies franchise record rushing game- it would be kind of hard to lose that one! Rwill went down in preseason.

We did better than I expected at 8-8! and Skelton can be credited for that at 6-2 at the QB position hands down. but the D and the Bean helped greatly.

Kolb needed last year and this offseason He will be much better and so will Skelton. I have an open mind and heart- except for the fact it was stupid to dump Matt leinart last minute for DA - Hall and Skelton.


Kolb's good game -Cowgirl OT whooping

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011120411/2011/REG13/cowboys@cardinals#tab=recap&menu=highlights

GLENDALE, Ariz. -- LaRod Stephens-Howling caught a short pass from Kevin Kolb and zipped 52 yards for a touchdown in overtime to give the Arizona Cardinals a 19-13 victory over Dallas on Sunday, snapping the Cowboys' four-game winning streak.
It marked the third time since 2008 that the Cowboys have lost in Arizona in excruciating fashion.
Stephens-Howling dodged a host of would-be Cowboys tacklers to scamper in with the score. Kolb completed 16 of 25 for 247 yards in his first game in five weeks.
Tony Romo was 28 for 42 for 299 yards for the Cowboys.
Dan Bailey missed a 49-yard field goal at the end of regulation that would have won it for Dallas. He also missed a 53-yarder. The rookie kicker came into the game with one miss all season.

Yeah, no, I'm not going to try to quantify the QB play of this team due to W-L record. If we did, however, Kolb would be completely and utterly destroyed by Skelton. Compare their records. Just sayin'.



And you've also clearly learned how to put the blinders on so as to evaluate the QB you are backing in a more positive light. Kolb has been in the league for how many years, and had solid, 1st and 2nd string development for how many of those years? And Skelton?

Let me help you with that last question: Zip, zilch, zero. Skelton got nothing but 3rd and 4th string scraps in practice his first training camp. Suddenly, he was thrust into the lineup his rookie season--out of Fordham, where he had nowhere near any kind of decent college development, let alone pro development--without any practice. He was utterly swamped that rookie season, yet went 2-2 in that rookie season. That feat is incredible for a rookie 5th round QB from Fordham.

He then had exactly no offseason development, and next to no training camp development, due to the lockout. He ends up 5-2 in his second season, STILL without any developmental time on any significant level. He never even had real college development--Fordham is not known for coaching QBs and prepping them for the NFL.

And yet you're willing to say he's just an average NFL QB at best, at the very best. Judgmental much? How about we actually have him get at least a wee bit of actual solid coaching from actual NFL coaches, not 3rd and 4th string camp arm coaching sessions. How about he gets a full offseason taking snaps with the 1st and 2nd teams before we judge? And how about we actually wait and see if Kolb can utilize the pocket like a normal QB before we go throwing out 12-4 ideas with him, eh?

Kolb, 12-4 potential. And yet you don't want Skelton to get any chance before limiting him. Oh brother. Uninformed is right.

 

[kerouac9]

Based on my uninformed observations of their play.

However, as a life long fan of the NFL, at 43, I've watched a lot of QB play. A lot.

I'd like to think that I'm able to tell when a professional QB has the ability to perform at a level that will substantially contribute to a winning effort for his team.

There are a lot of great things about John Skelton, and I appreciate everything he's done for our team. However, after watching him closely over the past two years, I do not believe he can consistently perform at level that will substantially contribute to our team's winning effort.

On the other hand, I've seen Kolb play at a high enough level (for an entire game) to make me believe that he might be the answer. I'm definitely not sold on him though. If he doesn't perform well (QB rating for the season of at least 88) this year, I think the team needs to make QB a top priority for 2013.

What game is this, exactly? I'm sure that someone else asked this already, but what is the complete game he put together?

 

[Proteus]

That was the only "decent" game he had, nothing close to "high level" performance.

18/27 (66.7%), 309 yds, 2 TD, 0 ints, 2 fumbles (lost 1)

We had total of 10 passing first downs vs. 17 for Panthers.
Yards/pass 10.9.
Red zone 1/3
Possession 27:13 vs. 32:47

Again, not bad but nothing to rave about either.

He was pretty good in the 2nd half against the Cowboys. Of course, he did suck in the 1st half of that game.

 

[Phrazbit]

He was pretty good in the 2nd half against the Cowboys. Of course, he did suck in the 1st half of that game.

Yes, he was abysmal in the 1st half. And the Cowboys pass defense last season was putrid, and Kolb didnt exactly light them up.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I heard Holmgrem on the radio saying you can't really judge a QB, and it's not fair to, until they have about 30-40 starts at QB. He was talking about McCoy but I'm not sure if I buy that theory anyway. I think it takes that long for a QB to hit his potential and start playing at a high level but I think you can tell if a QB cannot play before that time, see Max Hall. Kolb has shown to have a higher ceiling than Skelton, SO FAR. But he's also shown to be pretty erratic. I know people are going to cite the team's record with Skelton but things were alot different when he started, especially the defense. There is alot more that goes into the W/L than solely QB play. Otherwise Tebow wouldn't be backing up Sanchez in NY right now. I like Skelton but, to me, when both are healthy, Kolb is the better QB. That could ealiy change but I think KK starts the season and will play well until he gets hurt. And, that's where my main issue is with him right now.

 

[cardpa]

There is nothing to worry about. I heard Whiz will be coming onto a radio program this week to explain how the QB position has become less important in the NFL just like the OT position has become less important. We will be able to plug in just about anyone there and be okay.

 

[Duckjake]

Yes, he was abysmal in the 1st half. And the Cowboys pass defense last season was putrid, and Kolb didnt exactly light them up.

Kolb actually completed more passes in the first half (7) than he did in the 2nd half (6) of regulation vs Dallas. The difference was the first half he averaged less than 5 yards per attempt. Kolb was, I believe, 13-22-165 yards and 0 TDs in regulation. However, he did do well in Overtime. 3-3-82-1

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Even if Kolb plays well enough to keep the job (doubtful), I have every expectation that he will get injured. The guys career injuries to wins is basically a 1:1 ratio.

And as for the medical opinion that one concussion does not make you more likely to get another, I am pretty sure those docs also concede that some people are more prone to concussions than others. Either way, Kolb has proven to be frequently concussed and very slow to recover from them.

Below average arm strength, average accuracy, horrible awareness, awful in the clutch. Still see nothing at all to like with him.

He will be the starter though (unless he gets hurt in preseason). They've got 16 million still left to pay him no matter what happens so they might claim there is a QB competition but its just lip service. Kolb will be the starter until he gets hurt or until week 6 when the crowd mercilessly boos him off the field.

$16M?

There's $1M in salary in 2012 left to be paid. They can walk away at that point. Total cost: $20.5M.

That some $$$ could appear as "dead money" beyond 2012, if he's released, is simply accounting under the CAP and doesn't change the cost of the actual agreement.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I heard Holmgrem on the radio saying you can't really judge a QB, and it's not fair to, until they have about 30-40 starts at QB.

Kolb has played in 28 games in his career.

Skelton has played 13 games in his career.

 

[Stout]

Kolb has played in 28 games in his career.

Skelton has played 13 games in his career.

Thank you, Rugby!

I heard Holmgrem on the radio saying you can't really judge a QB, and it's not fair to, until they have about 30-40 starts at QB. He was talking about McCoy but I'm not sure if I buy that theory anyway. I think it takes that long for a QB to hit his potential and start playing at a high level but I think you can tell if a QB cannot play before that time, see Max Hall. Kolb has shown to have a higher ceiling than Skelton, SO FAR. But he's also shown to be pretty erratic. I know people are going to cite the team's record with Skelton but things were alot different when he started, especially the defense. There is alot more that goes into the W/L than solely QB play. Otherwise Tebow wouldn't be backing up Sanchez in NY right now. I like Skelton but, to me, when both are healthy, Kolb is the better QB. That could ealiy change but I think KK starts the season and will play well until he gets hurt. And, that's where my main issue is with him right now.

Cbus, you need to read my post above on the previous page. Why people want to judge Skelton negatively before he's had almost no professional development, and no quality college development, is beyond me.

 

[chickenhead]

Well, I for one am simply relieved that it should be settled. Barring injury, each QB is going to have a full offseason to prepare for camp and a full camp to win the job. Hopefully one of them proves to be the answer.

If next offseason we have this same debate--neither of them is the answer.

 

[JAB]

$16M?

There's $1M in salary in 2012 left to be paid. They can walk away at that point. Total cost: $20.5M.

That some $$$ could appear a "dead money" beyond 2012, if he's released, is simply accounting under the CAP and doesn't change the cost of the actual agreement.

That would be 1 million in non-guaranteed money. It's my opinion he's referring to what we have to pay him because we didn't cut him before the roster bonus was due. If he's cut at the end of this season you have 8 million in signing bonus, 7 million in roster bonus and 1 million in salary that's a total of 16 million for this year if he is cut at the end of the year.

That's a lot of reasons to give him a leg up in what should be IMO a completely open quarterback competition but they might want to try to put their money to use befor just wasting it. I think the terminology left to be paid might not be the exact words I would've used but he's going to cost 16 million this year one way or another so I understand his point.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

That would be 1 million in non-guaranteed money. It's my opinion he's referring to what we have to pay him because we didn't cut him before the roster bonus was due. If he's cut at the end of this season you have 8 million in signing bonus, 7 million in roster bonus and 1 million in salary that's a total of 16 million for this year. That's a lot of reasons to give him a leg up in what should be IMO a completely open quarterback competition. I think the terminology left to be paid might not be the exact words I would've used but he's going to cost 16 million this year one way or another so I understand his point.

Fair enough...

But, had he been cut, he still would have cost $8M against this year's CAP, and would have recieved $12M during his stay. ($2M salary for 2011 and his $10M signing bonus)

 

[JAB]

Fair enough...

But, had he been cut, he still would have cost $8M against this year's CAP, and would have recieved $12M during his stay. ($2M salary for 2011 and his $10M signing bonus)

Dang , you guys are fast. I generally edit my post about 14 times and I still don't get everything spelled right or structured right. Anyways I don't think the changes I made makes a difference I'm going to have to learn on this board to not hit reply until I'm ready.

That's all true and I don't want to speak for the other poster I just think a pencil pushing general manager crunching the numbers just might see him as a $16 million investment for this season and an owner just might want to make sure we know what we have considering there is a probability he will be cut at the end of the season.

 

[Phrazbit]

Dang , you guys are fast. I generally edit my post about 14 times and I still don't get everything spelled right or structured right. Anyways I don't think the changes I made makes a difference I'm going to have to learn on this board to not hit reply until I'm ready.

That's all true and I don't want to speak for the other poster I just think a pencil pushing general manager crunching the numbers just might see him as a $16 million investment for this season and an owner just might want to make sure we know what we have considering there is a probability he will be cut at the end of the season.

Exactly my point.

I made it perfectly clear that I wanted them to cut Kolb and not pay them his bonus, but now that Kolb's gotten his bonus and is still owed 6 million in guarantees after this season, there is no way he gets cut (this year) and no way he isnt going to be named the starter.

 

[kerouac9]

Exactly my point.

I made it perfectly clear that I wanted them to cut Kolb and not pay them his bonus, but now that Kolb's gotten his bonus and is still owed 6 million in guarantees after this season, there is no way he gets cut (this year) and no way he isnt going to be named the starter.

I don't think this is the case. I think that cutting Kolb would leave $6 million of dead cap money around (remaining signing bonus), but his Cap charge if he stays on the roster in 2013 is $12 million, give or take.

I think that people are being naive about the financial stakes of keeping Kolb. If Whis admits that Kolb sucks 13 months after trading for him and four months after giving him a $7 million check, then he may as well be signing his own firing papers. You only get so many chances to screw up the most important position in sports.

The early season schedule for the Cards is S-O-F-T. If Kolb can't come out of the gate 3-2 or better, the Cards put Skelton in, Skelton sinks or swims, and we're either running with Skelton on an affordable contract extension in 2013 and getting some OL help for him in the first round, or we're in a position to draft Landry/Barkley/Tyler Wilson because we'll be 3-13.

The question is whether Whis will still be the head coach if the Cards end up 16-34 in the post-Warner era.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't think this is the case. I think that cutting Kolb would leave $6 million of dead cap money around (remaining signing bonus), but his Cap charge if he stays on the roster in 2013 is $12 million, give or take.
.

How does that differ from my statement? 6 million in dead money vs 6 million in guarantees... semantics I guess.

What I was saying about money had nothing to do with his 2013 salary because he wont be on the roster to earn it.

As for Whiz, Skelton and Peterson's late game heroics were his saving grace but I dont think the Kolb fiasco gets him fired unless the team completely crumbles. Just look at how many people here still refuse to fault the front office for acquiring Kolb. Whiz's retention will swing on the teams record, regardless of how they get there 6-10 or worse and he is probably history.

Which is too bad, I like Whiz as a coach. I think he is awful at evaluating QBs, but purely on the field and making adjustments I think he is a good coach.

 

[THESMEL]

Kolb's pay is appropriate for a starting QB, He has not had a fair shot yet with the Cardinals, no offseason - but he was hurt half the season.

But what does Holmgren say about Matt leinart- has he has not shown enough promise to get a chance at a full season? without a 2 QB system with a Kurt Warner package inserted by a mad scientist? just a thought

 

[kerouac9]

How does that differ from my statement? 6 million in dead money vs 6 million in guarantees... semantics I guess.

What I was saying about money had nothing to do with his 2013 salary because he wont be on the roster to earn it.

Because the $6 million has already been spent. It's been in Kolb's bank account for nearly a year now. It's not like the Cards are going to have to keep paying Kolb if/once he's cut (which does happen with some players who have guaranteed dollars--it happened when Delhomme got cut from the Panthers and went to the Browns.

As for Whiz, Skelton and Peterson's late game heroics were his saving grace but I dont think the Kolb fiasco gets him fired unless the team completely crumbles. Just look at how many people here still refuse to fault the front office for acquiring Kolb. Whiz's retention will swing on the teams record, regardless of how they get there 6-10 or worse and he is probably history.

Which is too bad, I like Whiz as a coach. I think he is awful at evaluating QBs, but purely on the field and making adjustments I think he is a good coach.

Whis wasn't getting fired last year no matter what happened. The Cards have a much harder schedule this year than last; I kind of expect a worse record regardless of what happens at quarterback. I think that a strong showing at the end of the year even in conjunction with a 5-11 type season would save the staff.

I actually think that Whis is a really good adiminstrator/executive, but I think he's awful at recognizing what he actually has and playing to the strengths of the roster. The offense we ran out with Skelton mid-year should've been the one we've been running the last two seasons. It took Whis 20-some games to realize he should be running the ball and passing off play action.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Cbus, you need to read my post above on the previous page. Why people want to judge Skelton negatively before he's had almost no professional development, and no quality college development, is beyond me.

I don't judge Skelton negatively at all. I just think, for the reasons you stated, that he started way behind in terms or development. Now entering his 3rd year, he could make a huge jump in his development and just flat out beat KK for the position. That wouldn't surprise me one bit. However, my concern is that, to me, QB's are either accurate or they're not and thus far Skelton has shown not be all that accurate. He can slightly improve his accuracy but I doubt he's ever going to be a 60% completion passer.

On the other hand, and maybe I'm being optimistic, it wouldn't surprise me if Kolb puts together a nice year either. I'm not usually one for the excuses route but Kolb did have alot of things working against him last year. New team, new contract pressure to live up to, pressure of validating the trade, no off season, new system, meshing with new teammates are all factors. But, hey, he's a veteran QB and should be able to handle those things. It's just that there weren't too many factors in place for a succesful season. This year, there are zero excuses.

People are always fast to give Jason Campbell and Alex Smith the excuse of having different OC's every year. At least they had mainly the same personnel to work with and an off season to learn the system. Kolb was thrown into it without any of those factors and people wonder why he struggled. That's why I give him this year to show anything.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't judge Skelton negatively at all. I just think, for the reasons you stated, that he started way behind in terms or development. Now entering his 3rd year, he could make a huge jump in his development and just flat out beat KK for the position. That wouldn't surprise me one bit. However, my concern is that, to me, QB's are either accurate or they're not and thus far Skelton has shown not be all that accurate. He can slightly improve his accuracy but I doubt he's ever going to be a 60% completion passer.

On the other hand, and maybe I'm being optimistic, it wouldn't surprise me if Kolb puts together a nice year either. I'm not usually one for the excuses route but Kolb did have alot of things working against him last year. New team, new contract pressure to live up to, pressure of validating the trade, no off season, new system, meshing with new teammates are all factors. But, hey, he's a veteran QB and should be able to handle those things. It's just that there weren't too many factors in place for a succesful season. This year, there are zero excuses.

People are always fast to give Jason Campbell and Alex Smith the excuse of having different OC's every year. At least they had mainly the same personnel to work with and an off season to learn the system. Kolb was thrown into it without any of those factors and people wonder why he struggled. That's why I give him this year to show anything.

Good points but the one thing that really worries me about Kolb is that instead of getting better he kept getting worse as the season progressed. Same thing happened in 2010 in Philly.

 

[Russ Smith]

If Skelton is the starter drafting another WR who's really good at jump balls was probably a good decision giving Skelton's habit of throwing the ball high.

I do hope an offseason works wonders with his accuracy because I'm very concerned about Kolb's ability to stay healthy with the concussion issue.

My gut tells me if Kolb can't do it, the QBOF isn't currently on the roster.

Skelton just hasn't been close to accurate enough, and Kolb can't stay in the pocket(if there) and stay healthy.