Can Someone Define the "Situation" that this Organization Found Itself In?

[THESMEL]

yea

I already did for years- and this board flamed me to death.

A lot of the apologeas for the good players that we've released (suddenly redefined from "core player" to "dead weight") has been that this organization found itself in an impossible situation with talent and salaries that couldn't be borne without taking away from the defense that had been the only successful part of the team the previous year.

I don't get it. Yes, the team had to shed some $5M to get under the league salary cap, but they could have done that by releasing one player: Stewart Bradley.

Okay, well, they wouldn't have had any money to sign any free agents or re-sign current free agents.

Well, they're going to save some $6M by releasing Kevin Kolb. Done.

So... what's the dire situation that the Cards found themselves in that required dismantling the defense? Yes, the Cards had a 5-10 record last year, but that was because of an offense that hasn't been meaningfully improved in free agency so far, and would have been able to be augmented through the draft, anyway.

If you believe that Keim has the legitimate right to destroy the roster to shape the team in his image, then say that. But don't pretend like this team was in a dire cap or talent situation that had to be dismantled. That flies in the face of all available evidence.

 

[DoTheDew]

New HC/GM are using their 1st year mulligan to reshape the team in the mold they see fit, rather than hold on to the "old core" just for a 6 win season.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

But you were referring to 2011 when you said subpar. So just checking. He ran for a 4.1 clip and had 9TD's that year thats hardly sub par. In no way shape or form is that sub par. Hes had one down year(post injury) and is extremely young. He is coming off the injury that for most normal people typically takes 2 full years to recover from and be completely back to himself.

Your just being a hater. I say we give the guy a chance and see physically what he has this year. Hell he signed a one year show me deal. He must be pretty damn confident.

Didn't Wells run at 4.2 ypc and 10 TD's that year and you give him little, or no credit. . We don't know what injury Wells had, other than it being a knee, how come he doesn't get 2 full years to recover?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I already did for years- and this board flamed me to death.

Oh come on now, let's not get ridiculous here.

This board flames you to death for just about everything.

 

[cardpa]

I see it this way, assume Horton is still the DC. Wilson was getting less and less time under Horton and was probably a cut even with Horton here so I see no difference, Wilson was gone either way.

Rhodes apparently either wanted tons of money for an extension or didn't want to extend at all. Either way he was on his way out too. If anyone recalls when we got him from the Jets his reputation was that of a bad apple and lazy at times. Maybe that personality came back out when the Cardinals tried to negotiate a new contract and they decided to just cut ties with him now.

Toler had shown flashes of good play however he hasn't been able to stay on the field and as others have posted he was still a backup to Gay which doesn't say much about him.

Wells is just a injury machine and maybe his comments about auditioning for 31 other teams didn't sit well with the new regime. The sum total of Well's contributions are not what anyone could consider above average at best. There were many posts here complaining how Wells went down too easy when hit low and once he couldn't use his stiff arm he was lost.

Bradley and Gay were a consensus cut them on this board so no one should be complaining about their departure.

Groves was making strides however he still couldn't win a starting job so did he hit his ceiling and all he ever would be was a spot player and solid backup?

LSH was a nice spot player however almost everyone here made the statement that he was easily replaceable.

Though Kolb's release is imminent no one is going to cry over his release when it becomes official.

The only player on this list whom anyone can make an argument for as a core player may be Rhodes and he wanted to be anywhere but here. Maybe they wanted to move him to SS and he didn't want to play there. Whatever the reason he's gone and we move forward. Every other player was dispensable and is being replaced with either an equal player or better.

I don't see the defense suffering that much due to the changes. It may take a half season to get it all together but then it took Horton half a season to get them all on the same page too so I am willing to give Bowles a chance.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The problem with Gay was that (IMO) we released him on the assumption that we'd get Toler back. I'm fine with keeping Toler and losing Gay, but now Jerroud Powers is being depended upon to start as the #2 corner for 16 games.

What is wrong with Jerroud Powers, and when did Toler become so good ?

Toler was a solid #2, Powers is in the same talent class, IMO.




Besides that, I agree. The Cardinals should come out and just say they are gutting the roster, purging the cap, and starting over.

Now, there actions are CLEARLY saying that, but a presser would be good. Cause yeah, cap reasons ? Sure. Right.

Some rough math:

Rhodes ($6mil) + [Bradley + Gay] ($7) + Wilson ($3) + Wells (1.5.) + Doucet ($2) = $19.5 million in cap savings

Subtract the $3 million carry over from the year before and the Cardinals are at $16.5 million for cutting these players.

If they cut Kolb they will be at least $24 million in cap savings from cutting players this offseason.

They are NOT in cap trouble, and have not been for some time now.

As for the 5 newly signed players, tenders, re-signings and camp fodder signed at the begging of the season. I would be shocked, absolutely shocked if that adds up to any where near 10 million dollars towards the cap, total.

Once the Cardinals cut Kevin Kolb, they could be around $14 million under the cap.

Just enough to sign Elvis Dumerville when the Broncos cut him.

Or create some room to cut or trade some unneeded offensive linemen during/post draft.

 

[kerouac9]

I see it this way, assume Horton is still the DC. Wilson was getting less and less time under Horton and was probably a cut even with Horton here so I see no difference, Wilson was gone either way.

Rhodes apparently either wanted tons of money for an extension or didn't want to extend at all. Either way he was on his way out too. If anyone recalls when we got him from the Jets his reputation was that of a bad apple and lazy at times. Maybe that personality came back out when the Cardinals tried to negotiate a new contract and they decided to just cut ties with him now.

Toler had shown flashes of good play however he hasn't been able to stay on the field and as others have posted he was still a backup to Gay which doesn't say much about him.

Bradley and Gay were a consensus cut them on this board so no one should be complaining about their departure.

Groves was making strides however he still couldn't win a starting job so did he hit his ceiling and all he ever would be was a spot player and solid backup?

The only player on this list whom anyone can make an argument for as a core player may be Rhodes and he wanted to be anywhere but here. Maybe they wanted to move him to SS and he didn't want to play there. Whatever the reason he's gone and we move forward. Every other player was dispensable and is being replaced with either an equal player or better.

I don't see the defense suffering that much due to the changes. It may take a half season to get it all together but then it took Horton half a season to get them all on the same page too so I am willing to give Bowles a chance.

If all these guys sucked so bad, why was our pass defense so good?

As for the first part--Wilson losing PT--the facts just don't back that up. A-Dub was still getting 60-80% of the defensive reps at the end of the year.

I don't get the argument that we shouldn't have kept Rhodes at a slightly inflated number in a contract year. Isn't it good to have players on your roster in a contract year--especially when they don't intend to come back? They play harder than they ever have, because they're playing for the next contract.

 

[Chopper0080]

Arizona puts themselves in this situation this offseason and I find it funny that people will say they are doing the best they can considering the circumstances. The Cardinals have INTENTIONALLY created holes in their roster, specifically the defense, by releasing starting caliber players. You can argue that these players were overpaid, on the downside of their career, or were potential locker room headaches, but facts are that they still INTENTIONALLY decreased the overall talent on the defensive side of the ball. That is ok if you are prepared to spend to replace those players with younger and more athletic players, but we haven't done that.

What is also lost in the arguement is that the focus of this offseason has shifted to the defense when it should be on the offense. We have not upgraded one aspect of the offense despite it being the biggest issue last season. We had a historically bad offense and the best we can do is cut Wells (and probably Kolb) and add Mendenhall to a one year deal and Drew Stanton? I understand the draft will be used to address some offensive issues but how much can we count on our rookie class in 2013? Does less experience really solve offensive issues? Are we really going to be able to add that much offensive talent in the draft to significantly improve our offense? Is a mid round RB really going to be an impact player? Is TE going to take priority over OL, QB, CB, RB, OLB and S in this draft? Can we realistically draft two starting OL players? Is any QB we draft going to beat out Stanton and Hoyer in 2013? If not, are we taking a QB out of neccessity in 2013 which will prevent us from choosing from a better crop of QBs in the 2014 draft?

Facts are that we blew up the best unit on our team, and have not used those resources to upgrade the worst unit?

Facts are that the best FA we have signed is Jerraud Powers who has never played more than 12 games in any of the 4 seasons in his career.

Facts are that we released 3 players in contract years to justify spending on 3 players who are essentially signed to contracts that are designed to allow the team to cut them next year with limited penalty.

I understand free agency isn't done and we still have to draft, but you have to be concerned in the direction this team has taken. We are more concerned with getting rid of "overpaid" players than we are with adding talent at this point in time. Now, if we use this money to add a better CB than Gay, add a quiality S, or spend the money on a pass rusher like Dumervil if he is released, than I am ok with it. However, I don't see that happening at this point.

 

[cardpa]

If all these guys sucked so bad, why was our pass defense so good?

As for the first part--Wilson losing PT--the facts just don't back that up. A-Dub was still getting 60-80% of the defensive reps at the end of the year.

I don't get the argument that we shouldn't have kept Rhodes at a slightly inflated number in a contract year. Isn't it good to have players on your roster in a contract year--especially when they don't intend to come back? They play harder than they ever have, because they're playing for the next contract.

I never said any of these guys sucked! Even before Wiz and company got shown the door there was conjecture that Wilson was probably history. Even Wilson himself alluded to that fact.

What I don't understand is everyone was willing to give some slack to Wiz the last three years even though it was evident that he wasn't doing the team any good. Horton was also given a lot of leeway with the defense yet Arians and Bowles are already on a short leash and they haven't even had OFT camps yet.

I think there is more to the Rhodes release than we know.

 

[Duckjake]

I never said any of these guys sucked! Even before Wiz and company got shown the door there was conjecture that Wilson was probably history. Even Wilson himself alluded to that fact.

What I don't understand is everyone was willing to give some slack to Wiz the last three years even though it was evident that he wasn't doing the team any good. Horton was also given a lot of leeway with the defense yet Arians and Bowles are already on a short leash and they haven't even had OFT camps yet.

I think there is more to the Rhodes release than we know.

2010 the Cards had just won back to back NFC West titles. 2011 the Cards rallied to finish with 7 wins in the last 9 games and then won 4 in a row to start 2012. That will earn you plenty of slack. Arians and crew haven't done anything for the Cards yet. They have to earn the right to get off the short leash.

There were a few who questioned CKW and Horton but were called whiners and idiots because Whis was the greatest coach in Cardinal history by the same posters who now say CKW left a mess that has to be cleaned up and Horton's defense wasn't that good anyway. So it wasn't evident to most fans that CKW wasn't doing the team any good until about the 7th or 8th straight loss.

If this were any team but the Arizona Cardinals I'd be more optimistic but I've seen this scenario too many times. Most recently in March of 2010.

 

[Chopper0080]

I never said any of these guys sucked! Even before Wiz and company got shown the door there was conjecture that Wilson was probably history. Even Wilson himself alluded to that fact.

What I don't understand is everyone was willing to give some slack to Wiz the last three years even though it was evident that he wasn't doing the team any good. Horton was also given a lot of leeway with the defense yet Arians and Bowles are already on a short leash and they haven't even had OFT camps yet.

I think there is more to the Rhodes release than we know.

What? The team wanted to pay him less because they thought he was overpaid and Rhodes did not want to extend his time and take less money for a team that is starting over. I don't think there is any more to it.

Essentially the Cardinals valued saving money vs. "over-paying" for talent for one year.

 

[Duckjake]

What? The team wanted to pay him less because they thought he was overpaid and Rhodes did not want to extend his time and take less money for a team that is starting over. I don't think there is any more to it.

Essentially the Cardinals valued saving money vs. "over-paying" for talent for one year.

I don't know. Depends on whether Jurecki's report was true that Rhodes didn't want to be here or just PR spin from the Cardinals.

 

[Chopper0080]

I don't know. Depends on whether Jurecki's report was true that Rhodes didn't want to be here or just PR spin from the Cardinals.

I think we are over-analyzing this. Rhodes didn't want to be here getting paid less money or having a longer commitemnt to a team starting over. He wants to win, so why would he commit more years to a team blwing things up in the toughest division in the NFL?

 

[kerouac9]

I don't know. Depends on whether Jurecki's report was true that Rhodes didn't want to be here or just PR spin from the Cardinals.

I don't think that Rhodes "didn't want to be here," inasmuch as he didn't want to make a commitment to be here beyond 2013. Rhodes came off a pretty awesome season, then if he puts up another one in 2013 where the safety market may not be so glutted, he could be in line for some good money.

I think that people are mis-reading the report as Rhodes being a clubhouse lawyer and cancer. All the reports prior to the release was that he was a good guy, high character.

Funny how a few lines of agate type will flip some posters' opinions on a player.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't think that Rhodes "didn't want to be here," inasmuch as he didn't want to make a commitment to be here beyond 2013. Rhodes came off a pretty awesome season, then if he puts up another one in 2013 where the safety market may not be so glutted, he could be in line for some good money.

I think that people are mis-reading the report as Rhodes being a clubhouse lawyer and cancer. All the reports prior to the release was that he was a good guy, high character.

Funny how a few lines of agate type will flip some posters' opinions on a player.

Did it ever. He went from a board favorite to a malcontent who needed to go in less than 5 minutes.

 

[wa52lz]

When the whole Rhodes-Dockett thing went down after the Jets game, did anything come out about players supporting one guy or the other? I really don't remember.

 

[Sam Wise]

NFL Safety Kerry Rhodes Comments on Release From the Arizona Cardinals
* Reuters is not responsible for the content in this press release.
Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:02pm EDT


LOS ANGELES, CA, Mar 13 (Marketwire) --
"Playing with the Cardinals has been one of the most rewarding
experiences of my career. I want to thank my coaches, teammates and
Arizona fans everywhere for making the last three years truly remarkable.
Change is always exciting and I'm optimistic about what the future holds.
Wherever I go or whatever I do, I look forward to working hard and giving
110%, as always."

I know some will say "well of course he is going to say the right things" but there have been plenty of players who left and are still on this team that have thrown the Cardinals under the bus COUGH COUGH DD.

Just waiit Rhodes will get a very good contract soon. He is the best Safety on the market, he has all the tools, durability, smart and he will be 31 this year which isn't that old. Those of you that say he wasn't that good, don't understand what his job was. There are very few FS that have his combination fo skills, we will understand that next year unless we get a rookie who just lights it up from day one.

 

[cardpa]

NFL Safety Kerry Rhodes Comments on Release From the Arizona Cardinals
* Reuters is not responsible for the content in this press release.
Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:02pm EDT


LOS ANGELES, CA, Mar 13 (Marketwire) --
"Playing with the Cardinals has been one of the most rewarding
experiences of my career. I want to thank my coaches, teammates and
Arizona fans everywhere for making the last three years truly remarkable.
Change is always exciting and I'm optimistic about what the future holds.
Wherever I go or whatever I do, I look forward to working hard and giving
110%, as always."

I know some will say "well of course he is going to say the right things" but there have been plenty of players who left and are still on this team that have thrown the Cardinals under the bus COUGH COUGH DD.

Just waiit Rhodes will get a very good contract soon. He is the best Safety on the market, he has all the tools, durability, smart and he will be 31 this year which isn't that old. Those of you that say he wasn't that good, don't understand what his job was. There are very few FS that have his combination fo skills, we will understand that next year unless we get a rookie who just lights it up from day one.

I think this will tell us a lot based on what kind of contract he gets and with who.

 

[Catfish]

but Mendenhall... who was NOTHING last year and subpar in 2011 ranking 21st in rushing (which I'd have to call less then average) in his last year when he was healthy doesn't = Backup in your world?

Mendenhall is still ranked above Beanie on the Free Agent Ranking lists. If he runs for 1000 yds at a 4ypc avg, no one will complain about letting Beanie go. That's an upgrade in my book. We also balanced the defense better. We now have a defense that can defend the run better than 2012 when we were 28th. Even with our upgrade in CB's we may not defend the pass quite as well early as we did in 2012, but be should at least be serviceable there, (though thin at safety until we get some help). With projected O-Line and Safety improvement in the Draft, we look to be a more solid team than 2012. We got younger for the most part. Stronger for sure, and more talented in nearly every position except Safety. I consider the O-line better because of the teaching that we have been lacking for current players, and for depth help from the draft.

 

[ajcardfan]

Did it ever. He went from a board favorite to a malcontent who needed to go in less than 5 minutes.

Hey, it's what this board is good at!

But, did you read anything on the net about Mendenhall from Steelers fans after signing here? Cards fans are pure amateurs are pouring invective onto ex-players. The sort of things I read about Mendenhall would've been appropriate if he had raped a nun on live TV while eating a newborn baby.

 

[ajcardfan]

NFL Safety Kerry Rhodes Comments on Release From the Arizona Cardinals
* Reuters is not responsible for the content in this press release.
Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:02pm EDT


LOS ANGELES, CA, Mar 13 (Marketwire) --
"Playing with the Cardinals has been one of the most rewarding
experiences of my career. I want to thank my coaches, teammates and
Arizona fans everywhere for making the last three years truly remarkable.
Change is always exciting and I'm optimistic about what the future holds.
Wherever I go or whatever I do, I look forward to working hard and giving
110%, as always."

I know some will say "well of course he is going to say the right things" but there have been plenty of players who left and are still on this team that have thrown the Cardinals under the bus COUGH COUGH DD.

Just waiit Rhodes will get a very good contract soon. He is the best Safety on the market, he has all the tools, durability, smart and he will be 31 this year which isn't that old. Those of you that say he wasn't that good, don't understand what his job was. There are very few FS that have his combination fo skills, we will understand that next year unless we get a rookie who just lights it up from day one.

If he had gotten an extension, there would be all kinds of posts lauding Arians and Keim. Either way, cut or extension, Rhodes had the same talent. Taking what fans say about personnel moves seriously.... misguided. Even my statements should not be taken seriously. Sure, I can point to a bunch that are "right", or "wrong", but we can all do that.

 

[Catfish]

That's the pernicious lie that some are selling. Release Bradley and Kolb and you instantly have a ton of cap room--more than enough to dip into free agency the way we have and sign the rookies.

If you need more, you could release Jay Feely ($1M in savings). There was no legitimate salary-cap motivation for releasing Gay, Wilson, and Rhodes.

UMMMM Don't believe we are finished yet in FA, though things will slow down. We could still bring in an OL, or S, or maybe even a pass rusher. You have to have blinders on to see that we have a better balance to this team. We will NOT be 28th in run defense in 2012, we will fare much better than that. We will more than likely be decent in pass defense, (I would settle for mediocre). We WILL have a running game, even though you don't like our #1 RB. We WILL have more time to find receivers than last year.

You quote my post, (referring to it as a pernicious lie), then claim that we could have signed the 9 free agents and the rookies for Kolb and Bradley money. I won't go so far as to call you a liar, but that does seem to be a very tight fit. Even if it is so, we got way better at CB, LB, DL, ST's, and even better at RB. I don't believe you could have done that on Kolb and Bradley money. We may still come up with a sleeper in FA as money is drying up, and we are still a player to some extent when most aren't. Give these people a little credit for a job well done.

 

[WildBB]

. There are very few FS that have his combination fo skills, we will understand that next year unless we get a rookie who just lights it up from day one.

I'm going to press for Jon Cyprian or Phillip Thomas for the Cards in the 2nd Rd. They could both be real specail.

 

[kerouac9]

UMMMM Don't believe we are finished yet in FA, though things will slow down. We could still bring in an OL, or S, or maybe even a pass rusher. You have to have blinders on to see that we have a better balance to this team. We will NOT be 28th in run defense in 2012, we will fare much better than that. We will more than likely be decent in pass defense, (I would settle for mediocre). We WILL have a running game, even though you don't like our #1 RB. We WILL have more time to find receivers than last year.

I could really give a rat's behind if we're better than 28th in run defense in 2013. We were a Top 5 defense because this is a passing league and we had an elite pass defense--which we dismantled.

As for your assumptions about improvement in the offense, they're just your dreams, hopes, and wishes. Nothing more.

You quote my post, (referring to it as a pernicious lie), then claim that we could have signed the 9 free agents and the rookies for Kolb and Bradley money. I won't go so far as to call you a liar, but that does seem to be a very tight fit. Even if it is so, we got way better at CB, LB, DL, ST's, and even better at RB. I don't believe you could have done that on Kolb and Bradley money. We may still come up with a sleeper in FA as money is drying up, and we are still a player to some extent when most aren't. Give these people a little credit for a job well done.

We wouldn't have needed to sign these 9 free agents if we'd kept Rhodes and Gay. Could we have signed two inside linebackers, a cornerback, a backup level quarterback, and a depth defensive lineman for the $12M or whatever we had after just cutting Kolb and Bradley.

 

[Duckjake]

Hey, it's what this board is good at!

But, did you read anything on the net about Mendenhall from Steelers fans after signing here? Cards fans are pure amateurs are pouring invective onto ex-players. The sort of things I read about Mendenhall would've been appropriate if he had raped a nun on live TV while eating a newborn baby.

Yes. And you are right on the money.

Did see some odd things from them concerning Mendenhall and Arians. Some were surprised RM signed with Arizona.

• Hope he enjoys sitting on the bench with Arians and the 5 wide bubble screen O
• Playing for Arians again and won't get to show his ability....
• Arians didn't like him very much....
• Complained about his role in Arians offense for years...

They call us their Practice Squad.