Cardinal decisions

[Cbus cardsfan]

We've all heard about things being a Cardinal decision and doing what's best for the organization is the rule.

If they think Murray is the guy, they will take him and should. However, I think that comes with a caveat.

I don't think there's any way that both Murray and Rosen are on this roster next year. I predict the Cards will take offers but set a high price for Rosen, that being a #1 pick. If they get a second #1, I think they pull the trigger and draft Murray at 1 and fill another position with their second 1.

If they don't get another 1, they keep Rosen and draft Bosa. It seems to be a win-win situation for the Cards.

Personally, I keep Rosen and draft Bosa. It's out there that Rosen had a higher draft grade than Murray and you'd be adding the #1 player in this draft.

But, if the Cards are handing the keys to KK and Murray is his guy, do you let him draft him? That decision seems counterintuitive to a "Cardinal decision" though because you'd be letting the new coach's preference override what could be an organizational decision.

 

[juza76]

We've all heard about things being a Cardinal decision and doing what's best for the organization is the rule.

If they think Murray is the guy, they will take him and should. However, I think that comes with a caveat.

I don't think there's any way that both Murray and Rosen are on this roster next year. I predict the Cards will take offers but set a high price for Rosen, that being a #1 pick. If they get a second #1, I think they pull the trigger and draft Murray at 1 and fill another position with their second 1.

If they don't get another 1, they keep Rosen and draft Bosa. It seems to be a win-win situation for the Cards.

Personally, I keep Rosen and draft Bosa. It's out there that Rosen had a higher draft grade than Murray and you'd be adding the #1 player in this draft.

But, if the Cards are handing the keys to KK and Murray is his guy, do you let him draft him? That decision seems counterintuitive to a "Cardinal decision" though because you'd be letting the new coach's preference override what could be an organizational decision.

really?

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/josh-rosen?id=32462018-0002-5600-59bd-f150d938ca3e



https://www.nfl.com/prospects/kyler-murray?id=32194d55-5267-0413-8d36-a5c3fd781aa0

 

[GuernseyCard]

We've all heard about things being a Cardinal decision and doing what's best for the organization is the rule.

If they think Murray is the guy, they will take him and should. However, I think that comes with a caveat.

I don't think there's any way that both Murray and Rosen are on this roster next year. I predict the Cards will take offers but set a high price for Rosen, that being a #1 pick. If they get a second #1, I think they pull the trigger and draft Murray at 1 and fill another position with their second 1.

If they don't get another 1, they keep Rosen and draft Bosa. It seems to be a win-win situation for the Cards.

Personally, I keep Rosen and draft Bosa. It's out there that Rosen had a higher draft grade than Murray and you'd be adding the #1 player in this draft.

But, if the Cards are handing the keys to KK and Murray is his guy, do you let him draft him? That decision seems counterintuitive to a "Cardinal decision" though because you'd be letting the new coach's preference override what could be an organizational decision.

If they start shopping Rosen before the draft everyone will know and the message is clear to him and teammates : You're not part of the plan going forward.

This potentially limits his value in trade, and relationships whether they select KM or someone else.

 

[Garthshort]

Does anyone think that a team will give us a #1 for Rosen? Or do you mean we'd have to give them a #1?

 

[Krangodnzr]

The way to shop Rosen is to leak the idea that Kyler Murray is going to be the pick, but dont actively shop him until draft day.

If this is a smokescreen, this is a EPIC smokescreen. Say what you will about Keim, but I've never seen anything like this in my almost three decades of watching the NFL.

 

[TheCardFan]

Does anyone think that a team will give us a #1 for Rosen? Or do you mean we'd have to give them a #1?

I hope it doesn't come to that but yes, I would imagine someone would give up a first round pick.

Washington makes the most sense due to cap issues/age of Alex Smith.

 

[BACH]

Does anyone think that a team will give us a #1 for Rosen? Or do you mean we'd have to give them a #1?

I think someone would give a late 1st for him

 

[football karma]

1. I agree that you cant have both on the roster at the same time. Aside from the potential of splitting the club, and handing KK a giant coaching challenge when he already has plenty to do: there just arent enough reps in today's practice limited NFL to evaluate two young QBs -- in a new offense.

2. I disagree on drafting Murray as contingent on the pick you get back for Rosen. If as an org you beleive that Murray is clearly the better guy --- you take him and dont look back. Dont get hung up on sunk cost.

3. If the Murray thing is really going to happen, when does Rosen become available? Pre draft? after you take Murray? Do you take a 2020 1st rounder vs a 2019? Peter King reported that teams have contacted the Cards on Rosen and been told he is not available. curious

 

[Veer]

I'm looking at Miami @13, Redskins @15 and Giants @17 when it comes to potentially trading Rosen. All these teams need a young franchise QB to build around. Of course Cards FO has to deny all offers for Rosen right now. It's way too early, a lot can happen until the draft, and right now I imagine the offers are in the 2nd round range.

Haskins will get picked somewheere between #2 and #10 at latest. He is a very similar prospect compared to Rosen. Actually I think Rosen has more natural arm talent. Drew Lock and Daniel Jones are nowhere near Rosen as prospects. Honestly I don't understand the 1st round buzz they are getting. Value of the QB position I guess. That's why I fully expect to get 1st round value for Rosen in a potential trade. Remember Rosen has just turned 22. Put him in this draft class and he's an easy top 10 pick.

Basically all we have to do is create a 2019 draft board which includes Rosen. His 13 NFL games where under horrible circumstances and shouldn't be held against him. However, the NFL experience he got can hardly be classified as valuable, or as additional advantage over this year's prospects. If Murray has a higher grade than Rosen, you take him. No way around it. The QB matters most.

Haskins will be off the board soon. I think either the 49ers and Jets will cash in on their high pick and allow the highest bidder to select Haskins. I can't see him slipping any further. A team like the Giants, Broncos, Bengals, Dolphins or Redskins would probably trade up for him to #4 or #5, because I don't expect the Raiders and Bucs to select a QB. After Haskins is off the board, there is no QB prospect even close to Rosen.

So if we indeed pick Murray and trade Rosen for either #13, #15 or #17, the sunk cost can be neglected. It's basically a lost 3rd round pick that has a low chance to become an impact player anyway, even though Keim's 3rd round record is much better than in any other round lol. But when you look at Keim's miserable 1st and 2nd round record, it puts the lost 3rd into context. When we talk about a potential franchise altering QB, a 3rd round pick is nothing. Keim should've gotten much more credit than he did last year for jumping from #15 to #10 at such low cost, even without considering the QB premium which is calculated into trades these days.

Back to sunk cost: Murray would be our new QB of the future, while we would basically swap Rosen for another 1st round impact player. Lots of good DL will slip to the mid or late 1st because there are so many great DL prospects, and that's also where the best OL prospects in this draft will be selected. If we get a shot an one of these prospects while trading Rosen, we can forget about sunk cost altogether. If no Rosen trade materializes after picking Murray 1st overall, you still have to trust the evaluation of Murray being graded higher than Rosen. At least I'm absolutely sure it wouldn't take long on day two of the draft to trade Rosen for a high 2nd.

 

[HoodieBets]

The question is would you rather have Rosen and Bosa or Murray and Metcalf/Wilkins. That’s only if you trade to the middle of the 1st, if it’s the end of the first it’s Murray and Harry/Simmons. Give me Rosen/Bosa 10 times out of 10.


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[GuernseyCard]

I'm looking at Miami @13, Redskins @15 and Giants @17 when it comes to potentially trading Rosen. All these teams need a young franchise QB to build around. Of course Cards FO has to deny all offers for Rosen right now. It's way too early, a lot can happen until the draft, and right now I imagine the offers are in the 2nd round range.

Haskins will get picked somewheere between #2 and #10 at latest. He is a very similar prospect compared to Rosen. Actually I think Rosen has more natural arm talent. Drew Lock and Daniel Jones are nowhere near Rosen as prospects. Honestly I don't understand the 1st round buzz they are getting. Value of the QB position I guess. That's why I fully expect to get 1st round value for Rosen in a potential trade. Remember Rosen has just turned 22. Put him in this draft class and he's an easy top 10 pick.

Basically all we have to do is create a 2019 draft board which includes Rosen. His 13 NFL games where under horrible circumstances and shouldn't be held against him. However, the NFL experience he got can hardly be classified as valuable, or as additional advantage over this year's prospects. If Murray has a higher grade than Rosen, you take him. No way around it. The QB matters most.

Haskins will be off the board soon. I think either the 49ers and Jets will cash in on their high pick and allow the highest bidder to select Haskins. I can't see him slipping any further. A team like the Giants, Broncos, Bengals, Dolphins or Redskins would probably trade up for him to #4 or #5, because I don't expect the Raiders and Bucs to select a QB. After Haskins is off the board, there is no QB prospect even close to Rosen.

So if we indeed pick Murray and trade Rosen for either #13, #15 or #17, the sunk cost can be neglected. It's basically a lost 3rd round pick that has a low chance to become an impact player anyway, even though Keim's 3rd round record is much better than in any other round lol. But when you look at Keim's miserable 1st and 2nd round record, it puts the lost 3rd into context. When we talk about a potential franchise altering QB, a 3rd round pick is nothing. Keim should've gotten much more credit than he did last year for jumping from #15 to #10 at such low cost, even without considering the QB premium which is calculated into trades these days.

Back to sunk cost: Murray would be our new QB of the future, while we would basically swap Rosen for another 1st round impact player. Lots of good DL will slip to the mid or late 1st because there are so many great DL prospects, and that's also where the best OL prospects in this draft will be selected. If we get a shot an one of these prospects while trading Rosen, we can forget about sunk cost altogether. If no Rosen trade materializes after picking Murray 1st overall, you still have to trust the evaluation of Murray being graded higher than Rosen. At least I'm absolutely sure it wouldn't take long on day two of the draft to trade Rosen for a high 2nd.

I remain in the Rosen camp but this is well thought out.

 

[BleedRed]

If Murray is not the pick @ 1 I hope we trade down a few spots and accumulate more picks.

As far as Rosen goes he is worth nothing less then a mid 1st+, so many on this board undervalue him. However he is a better prospect than Haskins, and far superior to Lock or Jones. Funny how we finally get a young franchise QB, and after one season with a terrible OL, weak targets (minus Kirk and Fitz) and garbage coaching we're willing to throw him away. I get the Murray fit with KK's system, however if we drop Rosen for minimal value it will go down as one of this franchises greatest errors. I really think he will be a top 10 QB for a long time once he is in a system for a year or two with some supporting cast.

 

[BleedRed]

Does anyone think that a team will give us a #1 for Rosen? Or do you mean we'd have to give them a #1?

I think someone will have to in order for us to take Murray.

 

[BW52]

If the Cards trade Rosen after one season it shows complete failure by the Front office.Failure by failing to build a NFL quality supporting cast for your top pick (Rosen) or Bradford..Failure in choices who was signed or drafted (Andre Smith,Robert Nkemdiche).Failure in hiring a Head Coach (Wilks) who was way over his head.Then giving up on a rd 1 pick after he survived and flashed skills in one of the worst situations in recent team history is another potential failure by the Front office.
The hype of the Media talking heads wanting Murray and the complete certainty of the Murray backers that he will come in and be "transcendent" and change the NFL and lead the Cards to the promised land is a big head scratcher.Playing QB in the NFL is extremely difficult for any potential QB draft pick.Playing QB in the NFL at a smaller size and being in a situation where you are expected to be the savior of the franchise and lead them to new heights and will be tremendous pressure and expectations.Just more questions about drafting Murray #1.Remember Rosen wasn`t supposed to see much action lastv season.Bradford was the starter until his play was so terrible he was replaced.Rosen played,survived,flashed some skills,kept getting back up after many knockdowns and never quit.If Murray is the pick then he will likely start from day one and can he hold up to the physical side,the mental side,the pressure of being the savior,etc;?Even with his "legendary awesome,one of a kind agility awareness skills..this is still the NFL with bigger,stronger,faster,badasss guy chasing him every game wanting to crunch him.No 20 yd separation for his WRs,no very Olinemen facing average college talent.Whole different ballgame.If Murray can do all that then pick him.I have my doubts.

 

[Veer]

The question is would you rather have Rosen and Bosa or Murray and Metcalf/Wilkins. That’s only if you trade to the middle of the 1st, if it’s the end of the first it’s Murray and Harry/Simmons. Give me Rosen/Bosa 10 times out of 10.

I disagree. If Murray grades out just 10% higher than Rosen, it's no question that we have to go with Murray. Of course, if you think Murray grades out just like Rosen, it would dumb to ditch Rosen just for the fun of it. But even in this case, we don't know what KK's offense will exactly look like. Even if their grades are close, Murray being a much better scheme fit than Rosen could be the tie breaker. I love Rosen and feel sorry for what he had to go through in his rookie season, but even for optimists, he didn't show much. Circumstances were really bad, but they are always far from perfect in the NFL.

Imo Murray is more accurate than Rosen. Rosen is much bigger. Rosen has a stronger arm, but Murray flicks it downfield with ease as well. Murray is much more accurate on the move. Even Matt Ryan, a common comparison for Rosen, can make accurate throws while on the move. In fact, he had a MVP season in a rollout style offense. And that's just talking about throwing on the move, not just running and improvising in general. Because the athletic difference between Murray and Rosen might be even steeper than the difference between Rosen and your average fat poster on a fan message board!

 

[HoodieBets]

I disagree. If Murray grades out just 10% higher than Rosen, it's no question that we have to go with Murray. Of course, if you think Murray grades out just like Rosen, it would dumb to ditch Rosen just for the fun of it. But even in this case, we don't know what KK's offense will exactly look like. Even if their grades are close, Murray being a much better scheme fit than Rosen could be the tie breaker. I love Rosen and feel sorry for what he had to go through in his rookie season, but even for optimists, he didn't show much. Circumstances were really bad, but they are always far from perfect in the NFL.

Imo Murray is more accurate than Rosen. Rosen is much bigger. Rosen has a stronger arm, but Murray flicks it downfield with ease as well. Murray is much more accurate on the move. Even Matt Ryan, a common comparison for Rosen, can make accurate throws while on the move. In fact, he had a MVP season in a rollout style offense. And that's just talking about throwing on the move, not just running and improvising in general. Because the athletic difference between Murray and Rosen might be even steeper than the difference between Rosen and your average fat poster on a fan message board!

If you think it’s 10% then I don’t think you do it. You lose so much equity. 10% could be 1 win. Plus nobody here, or even worse in that front office, knows who will be the better QB. You do know you are missing out on the chance of a transcendent defensive player who is more than 10% better than what you will draft at the end of the 1st. I’m not willing to maybe move lateral or even slightly better at QB and severely downgrade my prospect to improve the D.


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[Dr. Jones]

If the Cards trade Rosen after one season it shows complete failure by the Front office.Failure by failing to build a NFL quality supporting cast for your top pick (Rosen) or Bradford..Failure in choices who was signed or drafted (Andre Smith,Robert Nkemdiche).Failure in hiring a Head Coach (Wilks) who was way over his head.Then giving up on a rd 1 pick after he survived and flashed skills in one of the worst situations in recent team history is another potential failure by the Front office.

I agree. 2018 will go down as a lost year. One of the darkest in cardinals history. And that, my friend, is saying something.

 

[Veer]

I really think he will be a top 10 QB for a long time once he is in a system for a year or two with some supporting cast.

But will Rosen get the shot to be in one system long enough, or have a strong supporting cast? Many similar talented QB have failed because they were put into bad positions. Some were labeled as damaged goods immediately, some got a fresh start or two, hence even three or four if somebody still believed in their talent, but faced the same issues over and over again.

Bottom line, you pick who you think will be the best QB. What if Rosen gets a year or two in KK's system and doesn't improve by much, turns out to be below average at best? That's just as likely as Rosen turning into a top 10 QB under KK. If Murray grades out higher than Rosen, especially considering KK's offense, you take him 10 out of 10 times. Sunk cost be damned. Although generally I think Rosen's value is very underrated. A 22y young QB who was a top 10 pick less than a year ago and was thrown into the worst offense in recent memory. Still worth a 1st round pick, especially in a league where a premium is paid for just the chance of having a good QB.

 

[football karma]

If the Cards trade Rosen after one season it shows complete failure by the Front office.Failure by failing to build a NFL quality supporting cast for your top pick (Rosen) or Bradford..Failure in choices who was signed or drafted (Andre Smith,Robert Nkemdiche).Failure in hiring a Head Coach (Wilks) who was way over his head.Then giving up on a rd 1 pick after he survived and flashed skills in one of the worst situations in recent team history is another potential failure by the Front office.

yes. But that is done. What are you going to do about it going forward?

What if the org has concluded that based on a full years worth of observation -- games, practices, etc -- that Rosen's upside is something akin to Andy Dalton?

It would be compounding all the terrible-ness of 2018 by not wanting to admit an error on a top 10 pick (that you traded up for) and moving on to a different QB that you believe has a much higher ceiling.

 

[HoodieBets]

yes. But that is done. What are you going to do about it going forward?

What if the org has concluded that based on a full years worth of observation -- games, practices, etc -- that Rosen's upside is something akin to Andy Dalton?

It would be compounding all the terrible-ness of 2018 by not wanting to admit an error on a top 10 pick (that you traded up for) and moving on to a different QB that you believe has a much higher ceiling.

How can they decide if he will be Dalton? I’d take regular season Dalton all day. We won’t know if Rosen will crumble like Dalton in the playoffs until that time arises. Dalton just the QB skills is one of the best in the game he just can’t get the monkey off his back and win a big one.


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[BW52]

But will Rosen get the shot to be in one system long enough, or have a strong supporting cast? Many similar talented QB have failed because they were put into bad positions. Some were labeled as damaged goods immediately, some got a fresh start or two, hence even three or four if somebody still believed in their talent, but faced the same issues over and over again.

Bottom line, you pick who you think will be the best QB. What if Rosen gets a year or two in KK's system and doesn't improve by much, turns out to be below average at best? That's just as likely as Rosen turning into a top 10 QB under KK. If Murray grades out higher than Rosen, especially considering KK's offense, you take him 10 out of 10 times. Sunk cost be damned. Although generally I think Rosen's value is very underrated. A 22y young QB who was a top 10 pick less than a year ago and was thrown into the worst offense in recent memory. Still worth a 1st round pick, especially in a league where a premium is paid for just the chance of having a good QB.

Projecting Murray as being a better NFL QB is just that projection/speculation.SO far neither Murray or Rosen has played under exactly what system KK will adapt for the NFL .We don`t know exactly what version of KKs offense he will use yet.What if Cards trade Rosen,draft Murray and he flames out badly?Then you are forced to start all over next season with a new QB and you likely don`t have a Bosa or Q.Williams already playing defense for you?Are you Murray fans so sure of his success that you are willing to stand on that ledge?

 

[DRM08]

I'm looking at Miami @13, Redskins @15 and Giants @17 when it comes to potentially trading Rosen. All these teams need a young franchise QB to build around. Of course Cards FO has to deny all offers for Rosen right now. It's way too early, a lot can happen until the draft, and right now I imagine the offers are in the 2nd round range.

Haskins will get picked somewheere between #2 and #10 at latest. He is a very similar prospect compared to Rosen. Actually I think Rosen has more natural arm talent. Drew Lock and Daniel Jones are nowhere near Rosen as prospects. Honestly I don't understand the 1st round buzz they are getting. Value of the QB position I guess. That's why I fully expect to get 1st round value for Rosen in a potential trade. Remember Rosen has just turned 22. Put him in this draft class and he's an easy top 10 pick.

Plus the Cardinals already paid out over 60% of his rookie contract through the signing bonus. Only $2m per year for the next 3 years. That is chump change even for a backup QB. You would think this increases his possible value in the trade market for draft picks. Guess we shall see how it plays out.

 

[BW52]

yes. But that is done. What are you going to do about it going forward?

What if the org has concluded that based on a full years worth of observation -- games, practices, etc -- that Rosen's upside is something akin to Andy Dalton?

It would be compounding all the terrible-ness of 2018 by not wanting to admit an error on a top 10 pick (that you traded up for) and moving on to a different QB that you believe has a much higher ceiling.

If the organization feels that Rosen is Andy Dalton 2.0 then what the hell is wrong with that? He is a above average/good QB who has Carson Palmer playoff luck.I keep Rosen and take my best choice for defense (Bosa or Q.Williams).
Better than risking everything on a small QB with several red flags.

 

[Veer]

What hasn't been discussed at all is that MB/SK didn't think a year ago that they would hold the 1st overall pick in 2019, along with a new HC in charge. Remember BA officially "retired", so this wasn't the usual coaching hire that happens after you fire the coach at the end of a 3-13 season, just like what happened to Wilks. This was a team ready to compete in the minds of MB/SK. They knew with a new coach there would be some transition time, but they also believed - just like you and me - that the players on defense were still good enough to keep us in games, and Bradford/Rosen being a clear upgrade on Stanton/Gabbert in an offense that was more about ball contol than BA's vertical attack. Obviously they had to believe in the coaches and schemes they just had hired.

And if the rumors are true that Josh Allen was our initial target, with Darnold out of range from the start, their opinion on Rosen was probably never very high. Still high enough to jump from #15 to #10 for basically a 3rd round pick. But not enough to sacrifice future picks that are usually paid for franchise QBs, and possibly jump ahead of the Bills who everybody knew would take a QB. If you believe you have identified a real franchise QB, you don't risk him dropping to #10. If you have identified one, he better be the highest player on your whole draft board. If you just believe a guy has a shot to turn into a franchise QB under good circumstances, you play it more passive. That's what we did with Rosen and I think that's still their opinion regarding Rosen

If MB/SK already knew last year that they would hold the 1st overall pick in 2019 with a new offensive minded HC, our 2018 1st round pick would've probably been Derwin James or Minkah Fitzpatrick.

 

[BW52]

What hasn't been discussed at all is that MB/SK didn't think a year ago that they would hold the 1st overall pick in 2019. Remember BA officially "retired", so this wasn't the usual coaching hire that happens after you fire the coach at the end of a 3-13 season, just like what happened to Wilks. This was a team ready to compete in the minds of MB/SK. They knew with a new coach there would be some transition time, but they also believed - just like you and me - that the players on defense were still good enough to keep us in games, and Bradford/Rosen being a clear upgrade on Stanton/Gabbert in an offense that was more about ball contol than BA's vertical attack. Obviously they had to believe in the coaches and schemes they just had hired.

And if the rumors are true that Josh Allen was our initial target, with Darnold out of range from the start, their opinion on Rosen was probably never the very high. Still high enough to jump from #15 to #10 for basically a 3rd round pick. But not enough to sacrifice future picks that are usually paid for franchise QBs, and possibly jump ahead of the Bills who everybody knew would take a QB. If MB/SK already knew last year that they would hold the 1st overall pick in 2019 with a new offensive minded HC, the 2018 pick would've probably been Derwin James or Minkah Fitzpatrick.

Speculation on your part..IF The FO didn`t think much of Rosen then they sure as hell wouldn`t have traded for him.The FO could have decided on a another Qb in RD 2-3 to develop instead of trading for Rosen.Really reaching on your part.I don`t think Sk would trade for Rosen without having a good opinion as one of the top QBs.A consolation prize 1st round Qb that the FO didn`t have a high opinion of? It don`t wash.