Cardinals : AJ green signed

[daves]

This signing will add some drama to the games against the Rams this season!

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...dave

 

[BritCard]

I get the roster is aging and everyone is complaining. But what young guys were out there that were sure things to make this roster better?

my answer would’ve been Bud Dupree but he’s coming off an injury and people in here thought Reddick was better.

Exactly. The average age of the roster last year was 26.1. Bucs were 26.3. Chiefs 25.9.

How many players hitting FA are less than 26.1 and would have made us younger? 1 in 10 maybe? Probably less.

Hell, AJ Green over Larry makes us younger.

 

[Solar7]

Exactly. The average age of the roster last year was 26.1. Bucs were 26.3. Chiefs 25.9.

How many players hitting FA are less than 26.1 and would have made us younger? 1 in 10 maybe? Probably less.

Hell, AJ Green over Larry makes us younger.

It's laughable to compare us to either of those teams. The Bucs have one of the oldest players in the NFL skewing the average, alongside vet players he brought along for one last run alongside talented youth. The Cardinals have retreads we're hoping to have up years when we have like 3 young talented players.

As for the Chiefs... one of the youngest cores in the league.
https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/gallery/kansas-city-chiefs-player-ages-2020-nfl-season/

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Exactly. The average age of the roster last year was 26.1. Bucs were 26.3. Chiefs 25.9.

How many players hitting FA are less than 26.1 and would have made us younger? 1 in 10 maybe? Probably less.

Hell, AJ Green over Larry makes us younger.

Lol arguing against signing old players due to average age of a roster is completely meaningless.

and if we signed AJ to just replace Fitz and not be our #2 and we still signed a #2 I’d think it was great. But that’s not what keim did.

 

[Krangodnzr]

It is this for the entire roster for me. By themselves, all these moves are fine. As a collection along with the players we have on our roster is where I see the problem. That said, the concept of a veteran heavy roster with a young QB is not a bad one. However, the lack of draft success makes me believe the roster will be bare again sooner rather than later.

Well you could argue that Keims last winning teams were on the older side.

I think this is what you have to do when you can't consistently hit on draft picks.

 

[BritCard]

It's laughable to compare us to either of those teams. The Bucs have one of the oldest players in the NFL skewing the average, alongside vet players he brought along for one last run alongside talented youth. The Cardinals have retreads we're hoping to have up years when we have like 3 young talented players.

As for the Chiefs... one of the youngest cores in the league.
https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/gallery/kansas-city-chiefs-player-ages-2020-nfl-season/

That previous data was the year before. Last year the Cards were 26.41. The Bucs were 26.44. Chiefs 26.26.

So what you are saying is that age isn't the problem, it's quality? Which is it?

PS The age difference between Brady and Fitz, both teams oldest players, makes a difference to the average of 0.11 and still puts right next to us.

 

[Solar7]

Well you could argue that Keims last winning teams were on the older side.

I think this is what you have to do when you can't consistently hit on draft picks.

So replace Keim, don't keep trying to patch the sinking ship with duct tape.

 

[Solar7]

So what you are saying is that age isn't the problem, it's quality? Which is it?

PS The age difference between Brady and Fitz, both teams oldest players, makes a difference to the average of 0.11 and still puts the Bucs over us.

No, it's that you arbitrarily set the "youth" age under 26 while conveniently ignoring these teams' mid-age talent that still has them set for years to go. The Bucs just paid it off with an elite roster that won a championship. We're scraping up 32 year old vets in the twilight of their career to desperately vie for the last playoff spot. There's an enormous difference, and you're being obtuse if you don't realize that teams like the Chiefs have sub-30 talent locked up for a long time to come, and we have probably 3 players under 30 at the moment who warrant being called long term stars in the league.

 

[BritCard]

Lol arguing against signing old players due to average age of a roster is completely meaningless.

and if we signed AJ to just replace Fitz and not be our #2 and we still signed a #2 I’d think it was great. But that’s not what keim did.

You can't say "we are too old, we need to get younger" when we sit right between the two superbowl teams in average age and barely any different to either. That just throws the age argument out the window.

You can argue for better quality players, but the age argument is BS.

Bears, Titans, Saints, Bills all older than us last year. All made the playoffs.

All this hand wringing over AJ Green being 33 is a bit weird to be honest. He's on a 1 year deal.

There are 2 deals I'd rather have made. For sure, Curtis Samuel for $11.5m. Maybe Marvin Jones, but a 3 year deal for a 31 year old WR isn't a deal I'd really want.

I'm fine with AJ for 1 year. Loads of upside, no downside.

 

[Solar7]

You can't say "we are too old, we need to get younger" when we sit right between the two superbowl teams in average age and barely any different to either. That just throws the age argument out the window.

You can argue for better quality players, but the age argument is BS.

Bears, Titans, Saints, Bills all older than us last year. All made the playoffs.

All this hand wringing over AJ Green being 33 is a bit weird to be honest. He's on a 1 year deal.

There are 2 deals I'd rather have made. For sure, Curtis Samuel for $11.5m. Maybe Marvin Jones, but a 3 year deal for a 31 year old WR isn't a deal I'd really want.

I'm fine with AJ for 1 year. Loads of upside, no downside.

I still don't think you get it. This team has no stability. Old players, short deals, a team that has to hit the reset button every year because our draft picks have sucked.

 

[BritCard]

No, it's that you arbitrarily set the "youth" age under 26 while conveniently ignoring these teams' mid-age talent that still has them set for years to go. The Bucs just paid it off with an elite roster that won a championship. We're scraping up 32 year old vets in the twilight of their career to desperately vie for the last playoff spot. There's an enormous difference, and you're being obtuse if you don't realize that teams like the Chiefs have sub-30 talent locked up for a long time to come, and we have probably 3 players under 30 at the moment who warrant being called long term stars in the league.

Budda, Jalen, Murphy, Thompson, Simmons, Fotu, Lawrence, Allen, Murray, Kirk, Edmonds, Isabella all played significant snaps last year on a team that was 1 game from the playoffs and are all 24 or under (except Budda at 25). Gardeck seems to be coming through. Mason Cole is a reasonable backup iOL. We don't know what we have in Jones on the O line yet. Nuk is only 28.

Hell, Jalen, Simmons, Lawrence and Fotu are only 22. All these players have a bunch of developing still to do.

This is pure darksider stuff. The amount of snaps we had from players 25 and under last year will be above league average. We will see when Football Outsiders releases snap weights roster ages in April.

 

[Stout]

Budda, Jalen, Murphy, Thompson, Simmons, Fotu, Lawrence, Allen, Murray, Kirk, Edmonds, Isabella all played significant snaps last year on a team that was 1 game from the playoffs and are all 24 or under (except Budda at 25). Gardeck seems to be coming through. Mason Cole is a reasonable backup iOL. We don't know what we have in Jones on the O line yet. Nuk is only 28.

Hell, Jalen, Simmons, Lawrence and Fotu are only 22. All these players have a bunch of developing still to do.

This is pure darksider stuff. The amount of snaps we had from players 25 and under last year will be above league average. We will see when Football Outsiders releases snap weights roster ages in April.

You invoked Isabella as a positive; you lose lol

 

[BritCard]

I still don't think you get it. This team has no stability. Old players, short deals, a team that has to hit the reset button every year because our draft picks have sucked.

Old players and short deals are two different arguments. Pick a lane.

You seem to be using age as a proxy for something else. A bunch of teams are doing short term deals because of the cap.

And you're arguing about how we lost the game when Q1 isn't even over yet. Frankly it's getting a bit silly. Here's how it's gone so far.

Sign 32 year old JJ Watt - What?! We got Watt? Great move, still lots in the take blah blah
Sign soon to be 32 year old Rodney Hudson - Best Centre in the league. Great get. Bargain for a 3rd.

At this point everyone is thinking FA is going well.

Sign soon to be 33 year old AJ Green - Garbage. Too old. We need to get younger. FA sucks.

 

[BritCard]

You invoked Isabella as a positive; you lose lol

I said he played significant snaps!

 

[Solar7]

Budda, Jalen, Murphy, Thompson, Simmons, Fotu, Lawrence, Allen, Murray, Kirk, Edmonds, Isabella all played significant snaps last year on a team that was 1 game from the playoffs and are all 24 or under (except Budda at 25). Gardeck seems to be coming through. Mason Cole is a reasonable backup iOL. We don't know what we have in Jones on the O line yet. Nuk is only 28.

Hell, Jalen, Simmons, Lawrence and Fotu are only 22. All these players have a bunch of developing still to do.

This is pure darksider stuff. The amount of snaps we had from players 25 and under last year will be above league average. We will see when Football Outsiders releases snap weights roster ages in April.

The vast majority of those players are complete replacement players/nobodies on any other NFL roster. The only ones worthy of being considered actually good/great at their positions are Budda, Murray, and Hopkins.

Only 3 of the players in your initial list are even guaranteed starters this year (Budda, Jalen, Murray). 4 if we include Hopkins since you mentioned him.

I'm talking about proven talent, not ifs, maybes, and guys who have already been replaced by older talent (Thompson, Fotu/Lawrence, Allen, Kirk, Isabella, Gardeck, Cole).

 

[Stout]

I said he played significant snaps!

That's not in the least bit of a positive! Relax, I was just jerking your chain

But Isabella does absolutely suck and we shouldn't be basing anything on him. He's not the speed WR we need--not that that's what you were saying.

 

[Solar7]

Old players and short deals are two different arguments. Pick a lane.

You seem to be using age as a proxy for something else. A bunch of teams are doing short term deals because of the cap.

And you're arguing about how we lost the game when Q1 isn't even over yet. Frankly it's getting a bit silly. Here's how it's gone so far.

Sign 32 year old JJ Watt - What?! We got Watt? Great move, still lots in the take blah blah
Sign soon to be 32 year old Rodney Hudson - Best Centre in the league. Great get. Bargain for a 3rd.

At this point everyone is thinking FA is going well.

Sign soon to be 33 year old AJ Green - Garbage. Too old. We need to get younger. FA sucks.

Age and short deals are inexorably linked. We didn't sign a bunch of late-20s guys to one year deals to deal with the cap, we signed a bunch of guys in their 30s to short deals because we know they can't play much longer. Even in the best case scenario where they succeed, we need to replace them next year, unlike younger players.

"Everyone" does not think FA is going well.

I never said signing Watt was a great move and there's lots in the tank, I like getting Hudson, but offensive linemen last longer in the league than others (and I'm still bummed about giving up that 3rd round pick), and yes, AJ Green is both old and did not play very well last year.

AJ Green is exemplary of the Kingsbury era on this board. "Ignore his history, he'll be good because he's part of our organization now!" Nothing but blind hope.

 

[BritCard]

The vast majority of those players are complete replacement players/nobodies on any other NFL roster. The only ones worthy of being considered actually good/great at their positions are Budda, Murray, and Hopkins.

Only 3 of the players in your initial list are even guaranteed starters this year (Budda, Jalen, Murray). 4 if we include Hopkins since you mentioned him.

I'm talking about proven talent, not ifs, maybes, and guys who have already been replaced by older talent (Thompson, Fotu/Lawrence, Allen, Kirk, Isabella, Gardeck, Cole).

What do you think other teams rosters are? Show me another franchise that has 8 quality starters under 25. Or 6. I doubt you could barely scrape 4.

This is pure "grass is greener" stuff.

 

[BritCard]

I never said signing Watt was a great move and there's lots in the tank

Let's just say that's revisionist. From the Watt thread.

#1 - OMG

#2 - I'm both very excited and confused with this move. That's a lot of money, but I'm happy to have a guy with his leadership on the team. I allowed myself to dream about it a little when DHop posted that IG post earlier. I'm going to err on the side of positivity here, and hope he kills it.

Bear in mind you only negative was money and this was before we found out his cap hit this year was less than $5m.

So you were positive on Watt and positive on Hudson. And then we sign Green and you have gone full on "It's all crap".

It's 1 player with a cap hit of $2.5m.

 

[BigRedRage]

you guys must be bored if debating AJ green signing for this long. He's on the team. I hope it goes well.

 

[Solar7]

What do you think other teams rosters are? Show me another franchise that has 8 quality starters under 25. Or 6. I doubt you could barely scrape 4.

This is pure "grass is greener" stuff.

You're moving the goalposts. Young talent doesn't have to be under 25 exclusively, but under 30 is extremely fair. But I'll bite and do 25 or under, expanded to 26.

Let's just take the Washington Football Team:
Chase Young
Antonio Gibson
Daron Payne
Curtis Samuel
Montez Sweat
Terry McLaurin
Cole Holcomb
Expand to 26:
Jonathan Allen
Kendall Fuller

Even the Buccaneers, your own argument, have:
Devin White
Antoine Winfield Jr.
Tristan Wirfs
Ronald Jones II
Carlton Davis
Jamel Dean
Jordan Whitehead
Chris Godwin
Expand to 26:
Vita Vea
(And Mike Evans is only 27)

The Cardinals starters under 25 are:
Lawrence/Fotu (only if Peters doesn't return)
Jalen Thompson
Kyler Murray
Chase Edmonds (assuming no other back added)
Budda Baker
Expand to 26:
Maxx Williams

One of these things is not like the other.

 

[Solar7]

Let's just say that's revisionist. From the Watt thread.

#1 - OMG

#2 - I'm both very excited and confused with this move. That's a lot of money, but I'm happy to have a guy with his leadership on the team. I allowed myself to dream about it a little when DHop posted that IG post earlier. I'm going to err on the side of positivity here, and hope he kills it.

Bear in mind you only negative was money and this was before we found out his cap hit this year was less than $5m.

So you were positive on Watt and positive on Hudson. And then we sign Green and you have gone full on "It's all crap".

It's 1 player with a cap hit of $2.5m.

OMG was shock at signing him while I was walking out the door to an appointment and didn't have time to say anything else.

And I don't know how you think "excited and confused" is "he's got plenty left in the tank." Plus that was days before free agency when I was unaware the goal was to go 0 CB with our defense, lose multiple weapons for Kyler, and do nothing to upgrade the offense but add Green.

 

[BritCard]

OMG was shock at signing him while I was walking out the door to an appointment and didn't have time to say anything else.

And I don't know how you think "excited and confused" is "he's got plenty left in the tank." Plus that was days before free agency when I was unaware the goal was to go 0 CB with our defense, lose multiple weapons for Kyler, and do nothing to upgrade the offense but add Green.

I didn't say YOU said he had plenty left in the tank but the general feeling was. And you yourself were positive about the move and you advocated for it when he was released with the caveat of "If he can stay healthy".

It's like the single AJ Green signing completely changed your view about everything.

 

[QuebecCard]

You're moving the goalposts. Young talent doesn't have to be under 25 exclusively, but under 30 is extremely fair. But I'll bite and do 25 or under, expanded to 26.

(And Mike Evans is only 27)

The Cardinals starters under 25 are:
Lawrence/Fotu (only if Peters doesn't return)
Jalen Thompson
Kyler Murray
Chase Edmonds (assuming no other back added)
Budda Baker
Expand to 26:
Maxx Williams

One of these things is not like the other.

So our starting ILB, Simmons at age 22 doesn't make the grade or a 23-year-old Byron Murphy who played over 70% of the defensive snaps or Zack Allen, also 23, who takes regular snaps at D-end and yet the Lawrence/Fotu tandem do? And why would you not include Kirk at 24?

 

[BritCard]

You're moving the goalposts. Young talent doesn't have to be under 25 exclusively, but under 30 is extremely fair. But I'll bite and do 25 or under, expanded to 26.

Let's just take the Washington Football Team:
Chase Young
Antonio Gibson
Daron Payne
Curtis Samuel
Montez Sweat
Terry McLaurin
Cole Holcomb
Expand to 26:
Jonathan Allen
Kendall Fuller

Let's just take the Skins. So 7 under 25.

Daron Payne is an average IDL. (3 sacks, 7 TFL, mid 60's grade last year)
Curtis Samuel you argued here was not a great player and worth a big deal, although granted I like him.
Cole Holcomb has started about 7 games.

Again, this is just Grass is Greener stuff.

Are we short of 25 and under "stars" yeah probably. Compared to these 2 teams you cherry picked.

But Budda is that. Simmons can be that. A year ago half this board thought Jalen Thompson was legit (never saw it myself). Fotu is likely going to start at Nose and has a bunch of potential.

I think what this all boils down to is "We don't have a great young WR". I think if we did your whole perception would change.

There's no doubt Keim sucks ass at drafting. But by the same token it's not like this team is full of geriatrics and has no young talent. I think you will find it's around league average.