Cardinals Patient with Anderson Somers

[Cardiac]

The article basically is a "CYA" spin by the Cards. It reflects on the front office along with Whis on not having a good plan in place when Kurt retired.
They rolled the dice and lost. They hoped ML could take over but looking how poorly he did last year in mop up games, they should have known he wasn't the answer. Film on DA would also show that he wasn't accurate. Finally, they knew the draft was not an answer as Bradford was the really only highly rated qb and he wasn't going to be there when they picked.

Its easy to second guess but McNabb was the one to go after but I think they felt that ML or DA with coaching would work.

I for one don't believe that money was an issue as the FO has spent when needed since Michael Bidwill has taken over along with the positive revenue stream they have gotten from UoP Stadium.

The sad thing is that there really is a shortage of quality qbs in the NFL and the Cards are not the only team weak at qb. The Browns, Bills, Panthers, Jaguars, Raiders, Chiefs and Vikings all need a qb for the future.

It's going to be a long season for Cardinal fans.

I too believe this is a spin job and a crappy one at that. Given Dollar Bills track record and comparing it to Whiz's I just don't think Whiz screws the pooch this badly.

The FO has moved forward by light years since Michael has come on board. That doesn't mean Bill Sr. has removed himself completely from the picture.

Is it that RG moves at a snails pace or that every decision that involves money has to be approved by Bill Sr.? The same man who wears Bowties (rather old fashioned) and voted against instant replay and insisted on escalators and took forever to agree to guarentees for draft picks to participate in minicamps in case of injury who.........The list is endless.

Michael and RG and DG and now Whiz have made huge inroads to correct this but until he passes Bill Sr with have his input at some level, typically when money is involved.

 

[Cardiac]

"In the meantime, the Eagles had let it be known that Donovan McNabb could be had in a trade. But the Cardinals only briefly discussed the possibility before dismissing it. McNabb never was a serious option and ended up with the Redskins."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/car...a-cardinals-extra-anderson.html#ixzz10HFRl9WC

still waiting for answer as to WHY he was never an option.

I know you know, it's all about the $. Same as why we didn't get a proven DC and probably why we don't have an OC.

 

[MoeIsBetter]

And keep in mind we are a bunch of reactionary fanboys who are ready to jump ship at the first sign of trouble.

I know DA sucks, you know DA sucks, and likley so does the staff. But Somers is right in that knowing when to change QB's is what seperates the good coaches from the bad ones.

I happen to think we have a good one so I'll wait to see where we are come Game 8 or so before calling for heads.

Best post of the thread. This team has to much talent to be this bad and we know it. Chemisty is a big deal in the NFL and we need it, desperately. We need it on the offensive live, the QB to WR's, the LB's, the Secondary. It takes time. I hear all of you say "In Whiz we trust" but are we really doing that? If he says he has the tools to make Anderson a better QB and that it will take some time but its worth it then that's what I'm going to give him.

 

[Cardiac]

Best post of the thread. This team has to much talent to be this bad and we know it. Chemisty is a big deal in the NFL and we need it, desperately. We need it on the offensive live, the QB to WR's, the LB's, the Secondary. It takes time. I hear all of you say "In Whiz we trust" but are we really doing that? If he says he has the tools to make Anderson a better QB and that it will take some time but its worth it then that's what I'm going to give him.

Nope, this is a better post.

 

[MoeIsBetter]

I know you know, it's all about the $. Same as why we didn't get a proven DC and probably why we don't have an OC.

I really think you're over reacting...

 

[MoeIsBetter]

Nope, this is a better post.

Thank you Were tied for the divison lead. We have a little time to get this right. Just better do it quick if we want a shot at the playoffs. Whats really awesome is this team has an opportunity to get hot going into the playoffs just like our SB team did. We have WAY to much talent on the O-line to be this bad.

 

[Cardiac]

I really think you're over reacting...

I'm not trying to. I'm not on the Whiz is an idiot band wagon, quite the opposite. I also don't doubt that Whiz will turn DA into a solid QB. What I don't get is why it took until preseason to figure out ML wasn't our QBOF.

Whiz plans far better then this. I won't keep beating the Dollar Bill explanation as it is getting tiresome for me so I know some / most posters are fed up with reading or ingoring them. I'm just saying.

 

[CardLogic]

I agree. The explanation just screams excuses about how things unfolded and us not having a plan.

Thanks 40 for posting this because I was going to start a thread about this topic but this is a good place share my thoughts / questions.

The biggest issue we have at this time is at QB. How did we get ourselves into this mess. It can't be as simple as Whiz is an idiot or hates ML.

ML is on the team through Whiz's entire tenure with the team and he doesn't know until training camp that he doesn't want his as his starter? This is so unwhiz like that it can't be the answer.

Whiz gives more opportunities to DA during preseason just because he knows what we have in ML and wants DA to get up to speed asap. Whiz is spinning or outright lying at this point.

Whiz announces he is shaking things up and starts DA for the 3rd preseason game. Again spinning or lying. He has made up his mind at this point (IMHO) and wants to confirm DA can run his offense.

Whiz had to play the same game with FO with Clancy P.

I think the same thing happened with ML. When something like this occurs and their is no logical explanation then I always fall back to Dollar Bill. If anyone truly believes he doesn't have any say so and has become totally hands off is fooling themselves. I don't have video proof or DNA or CSI findings; I do however have a smoking gun.

Many of us were frustrated with how Fitz's and ML's rookie contracts were constructed. Buckybird found the info that this was Dollar Bills doing. He just has crazy and outdated thoughts on how to run an NFL team. Michael and RG and Whiz are getting more control and impacting DB's actions but he still has the final say so.

Why did Dollar Bill force Whiz to hang onto ML and limit his options in FA for getting a QB? It usually comes down to money and his whacky thought process.

The man who helped resurect KW's career and took us to the Super Bowl can't be the same man who has us in this current QB situation.

Many of us went crazy when Hood was released and then a year later McFadden was traded. No they weren't shut down corners but they are both still in the NFL and contributing. So is it our FO is clueless about CB talent or were both these moves about $.

To make a long post even longer I will add that Whiz does believe he can turn DA into a solid (at least) starting QB. It takes time to undo bad habits that have been cemented into his muscle memory. Throw in that the Oline has not been very good at this point and when under pressure DA will regress to his old bad habits for awhile.

A lot of good thought in this post!

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

"In the meantime, the Eagles had let it be known that Donovan McNabb could be had in a trade. But the Cardinals only briefly discussed the possibility before dismissing it. McNabb never was a serious option and ended up with the Redskins."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/car...a-cardinals-extra-anderson.html#ixzz10HFRl9WC

still waiting for answer as to WHY he was never an option.

I heard that the Cardinals FO didn't think he was a good fit. It could've easily been about the money but that was the company line.

Whatever it was, not bringing him was ridiculous. Donovan was literally BEGGING to come here. We were his first choice by a wide margin. I know that for an absolute fact.

 

[joeshmo]

I know you know, it's all about the $. Same as why we didn't get a proven DC and probably why we don't have an OC.

Yep its all about money. No matter the fact that when Wiz got here we went into the top 15 in overall coaching and staff salaries and this year are in the top 5 in money spent on coaches and staff. But lets not let facts get in the way.

Must be all about the money concerning players as well - http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2311091&postcount=14

Why are people still glossing over those in your face factual information. Is your heads in the sand, does it get in the way of your argument so you ignore it, are you still stuck in 2001 (which you must be considering you brought up the rookie insurance thing which has been fixed for years now)

 

[Cheesebeef]

We have WAY to much talent on the O-line to be this bad.

what is this based on? Lyle Sendlien was an undrafted FA, Brandon Keith was a 7th round pick, Alan Faneca who was talented is now 33 years old and has been cut by both of the two previous teams he played for because they thought he was done, and Levi Brown, our one high pick here, is one of the biggest busts of all time for us.

Deuce is a solid player with talent. That's about it on the line.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yep its all about money. No matter the fact that when Wiz got here we went into the top 15 in overall coaching and staff salaries and this year are in the top 5 in money spent on coaches and staff. But lets not let facts get in the way.

Must be all about the money concerning players as well - http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2311091&postcount=14

Why are people still glossing over those in your face factual information. Is your heads in the sand, does it get in the way of your argument so you ignore it, are you still stuck in 2001 (which you must be considering you brought up the rookie insurance thing which has been fixed for years now)

97 million dollars puts us at the 28th lowest payroll in the league Joe. That's why.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I heard that the Cardinals FO didn't think he was a good fit. It could've easily been about the money but that was the company line.

the only was he wasn't a good fit was financially speaking, especially considering the guy they went out to get to "battle" Matt for a job.

Whatever it was, not bringing him was ridiculous. Donovan was literally BEGGING to come here. We were his first choice by a wide margin. I know that for an absolute fact.

agreed. Really good, solid, proven winning QBs don't come on the market all that often. We blew a great chance to build a bridge to the future by bringing him in.

 

[joeshmo]

Seems like Cards FO, Wiz, and others made some huge assumptions, miscalculations, and didn't know what the idea of contingency plan meant concerning this QB situation. Also dont underestimate the usual coaching flaw of every head coach in the NFL and the biggest reason why FA is more of a crap shoot then the draft is, that flaw being every coach thinks they can make a guy better then another coach tried to do. They get blinded and over confident that they can work with the physical/mental attributes and intangibles of a player better then another coach or coaches could. Wiz is the best thing to happen to this team ever but no one is infallible and I got to put this on his shoulders, especially since he got more power and say that came with his new uber expensive contract.

 

[az jam]

Seems like Cards FO, Wiz, and others made some huge assumptions, miscalculations, and didn't know what the idea of contingency plan meant concerning this QB situation. Also dont underestimate the usual coaching flaw of every head coach in the NFL and the biggest reason why FA is more of a crap shoot then the draft is, that flaw being every coach thinks they can make a guy better then another coach tried to do. They get blinded and over confident that they can work with the physical/mental attributes and intangibles of a player better then another coach or coaches could. Wiz is the best thing to happen to this team ever but no one is infallible and I got to put this on his shoulders, especially since he got more power and say that came with his new uber expensive contract.

I totally agree with you. Wiz made the qb decisions and the FO went along with him. Argue all you want but IMO that is the bottom line.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Here is a neat little nugget RE: Anderson from Sando

2. Derek Anderson, Cardinals quarterback. Seattle's Matt Hasselbeck probably deserved a spot on this list, so I'll mention him, too. But Arizona hadn't gone a full game without a third-down conversion since a Sept. 28, 2003, defeat at St. Louis, a span of 109 regular-season games. That it happened in Anderson's second start with the team drags down his stock.

 

[PJ1]

Here is a neat little nugget RE: Anderson from Sando

2. Derek Anderson, Cardinals quarterback. Seattle's Matt Hasselbeck probably deserved a spot on this list, so I'll mention him, too. But Arizona hadn't gone a full game without a third-down conversion since a Sept. 28, 2003, defeat at St. Louis, a span of 109 regular-season games. That it happened in Anderson's second start with the team drags down his stock.

Wow. Very telling indeed. We have had some pretty poor QB play since 2003 also.

 

[joeshmo]

97 million dollars puts us at the 28th lowest payroll in the league Joe. That's why.

One year??? Really, that's what we are basing everything on. If that is case then are you willing to call the cowboys cheap for only spending 90 mill last year? Spending less then us by a wide margin.

Since when is the exception the rule. And the rule is since Wiz got here we have spent more money on players, coaches and staff then 75% of the NFL. To still say this team is driven by money is not only ignoring the fact that this isn't a non-profit organization, but ignoring the previous sentence.

Everyone is completely blinded by this years salary list which is a huge mistake for many reasons. Season isn't over yet, still have until march to do extensions(what if we extend Breaston or someone else and it pushes us into the top half), still don't have included incentives or bonuses yet to be earned, and the biggest reason of all is that the numbers are skewed by many teams because they greatly front loaded deals during a non cap year skewing the numbers which is exactly what the Cowboys did this year as well as the redskins who have a 21 mill bonus to Haynesworth on their bill this year. A strategy that these teams might end up biting them in the butt if a new CBA is done because their front loading this year might end up actually being pro-rated into their future year cap totals, a relatively new rumor and I know for a fact that some teams are very scared of the possibility of this tactic biting them in the butt because 25 teams will vote yes for it.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Wow. Very telling indeed. We have had some pretty poor QB play since 2003 also.

That would be Jake Blake unless I am mistaken.

 

[az1965]

- If it's true that the Cardinal FO believed Kurt would return, then they were naiive. They should have covered their bets better than they did.

- I don't believe that, in any way, Bulger would have been the answer - an experienced version of John Navarre.

- We really botched it with Leinart - (1) by picking him that high and not having him pan out, (2) not successfully developing him and (3) evaluating his progress so badly that he went from starter to being cut in roughly 24 hours.

- It's looking more and more as though the FO may have botched the decision to go with Anderson as well - (1) not accurately assessing his strong and weak points, (2) overestimating his capacity to eliminate his glaring weaknesses (& the coaching staff's ability to help him improve).

- Our Plan B (i.e. Hall and/or Skelton) has been pretty weak and more along the lines of a Plan C.

- The things I want to see from Anderson are (1) that he consistently throws "lower in the zone" so that his rocket-balls stop bouncing off the outstretched hands of his receivers into the arms of defenders and (2) he gains command of his throws instead of every passing attempt seeming like an adventure - i.e. (a) he knows what he wants to do, (b) he feels confident that it will work and (c) it works.

- Finally (as much as I like Hall's potential), Anderson is the only QB we've got, and I'm continuing to hope he & his receivers finally get their act together. (But hope is one thing/confidence is another).

Agree...

Whisenhunt is too smart to not know Leinart is not the anser after spending three seasons with him. Why did he keep saying he had confidence in him as the starter and then right out cut him after the training camp? I just don't believe what is being told to us.

I also don't believe Anderson can "rectify" his issues in such a short time (assuming he can eventually) and salvage the season.

This is a big time screw up by the FO and the coach.

 

[Cardiac]

One year??? Really, that's what we are basing everything on. If that is case then are you willing to call the cowboys cheap for only spending 90 mill last year? Spending less then us by a wide margin.

Since when is the exception the rule. And the rule is since Wiz got here we have spent more money on players, coaches and staff then 75% of the NFL. To still say this team is driven by money is not only ignoring the fact that this isn't a non-profit organization, but ignoring the previous sentence.

Everyone is completely blinded by this years salary list which is a huge mistake for many reasons. Season isn't over yet, still have until march to do extensions(what if we extend Breaston or someone else and it pushes us into the top half), still don't have included incentives or bonuses yet to be earned, and the biggest reason of all is that the numbers are skewed by many teams because they greatly front loaded deals during a non cap year skewing the numbers which is exactly what the Cowboys did this year as well as the redskins who have a 21 mill bonus to Haynesworth on their bill this year. A strategy that these teams might end up biting them in the butt if a new CBA is done because their front loading this year might end up actually being pro-rated into their future year cap totals, a relatively new rumor and I know for a fact that some teams are very scared of the possibility of this tactic biting them in the butt because 25 teams will vote yes for it.

Now this is one of the explanations I was waiting for.

Joe, I've seem to hit your hot button today and I fully understand why. If you look at my history typically the only time I go crazy is when I get on a Bill Sr rant.

Is it not possible that Bill Sr is saving money in case there is a lockout?

Is it not possible that the FO has been doing an amazing job up until this year?

I don't buy the Whiz became an idiot about the QB situation all on his own. No one is infallible but screwing up the most important position on the team?

 

[Cheesebeef]

One year??? Really, that's what we are basing everything on.

nope. it's just one of many factors. Decisions like cutting or trading SOLID CB depth TWO YEARS IN A ROW, which is an absolute necessity in today's NFL wreaks of dollar over winning... Firing Clancy only to hire the DC of the worst D in the league wreaks of dollars over winning... squeezing a QB who just took us to the Super Bowl wreaks of dollars over winning. It's not just based on that galling payroll for this year.

If that is case then are you willing to call the cowboys cheap for only spending 90 mill last year? Spending less then us by a wide margin.

Since when is the exception the rule. And the rule is since Wiz got here we have spent more money on players, coaches and staff then 75% of the NFL. To still say this team is driven by money is not only ignoring the fact that this isn't a non-profit organization, but ignoring the previous sentence.

Everyone is completely blinded by this years salary list which is a huge mistake for many reasons.

there have been a number of other reasons besides just this year's salary list, noted above.

Season isn't over yet, still have until march to do extensions(what if we extend Breaston or someone else and it pushes us into the top half),

so does every other team... and I'll believe we extend important guys when I see it.

still don't have included incentives or bonuses yet to be earned,

same as above... every other teams dont' have incentives or bonuses yet to be earned.

and the biggest reason of all is that the numbers are skewed by many teams because they greatly front loaded deals during a non cap year skewing the numbers which is exactly what the Cowboys did this year as well as the redskins who have a 21 mill bonus to Haynesworth on their bill this year. A strategy that these teams might end up biting them in the butt if a new CBA is done because their front loading this year might end up actually being pro-rated into their future year cap totals, a relatively new rumor and I know for a fact that some teams are very scared of the possibility of this tactic biting them in the butt because 25 teams will vote yes for it.

what other teams besides the Boys and Skins did this this year? And I'll believe the above when I see it.

 

[Cardiac]

A lot of good thought in this post!

Thanks. When something goes awry one has to ask why and how.

Options I can think of.

It could be that Whiz blew this one big time, but that isn't the Whiz we all know.

Bad luck or timing during FA. That would say we didn't have a plan. How is ML still on the team if he isn't a viable option? Again this would have to be Whiz blew this one big time.

Rod Graves tied Whiz's hands. Not very likely as they got a lot accomplished during this FA period. LOS leaves because we lose the bidding war and we replace him with a body and utilize the draft. Not the best plan but only so many bullets in the gun. Rolle leaves because we lost the bidding war and at a non snail pace trade for Rhodes. DA is signed as a back up (or so we were led to believe. Porter brought in to hopefully fix the pass rush.

Money became an issue this year due to the potential lock out in 2011. Not sure if this holds any water, waiting on a reply from joeshmo.

Bill Sr. starts to meddle. Well based on his track record of making horrible decision for 60+ years then this seems the most likely to me.

 

[joeshmo]

Is it not possible that Bill Sr is saving money in case there is a lockout?

Is it possible sure it is but I don't think they are. Not after re-signing the whole coaching staff with big money. Not after handing out their largest guaranteed money contract ever (money guaranteed regardless of lockout). Plus they were willing to hand out 20+ mill guaranteed bonus money to both Rolle and Dansby but their snail pace negotiating style got in the way of that happening not money. If Rolle and Dansby excepted those deal we would be in the top 10 this year. Shows me they were willing to spend it just leads back to the issue of miscalculation issue they had with thinking Warner wouldn't retire.

Is it not possible that the FO has been doing an amazing job up until this year?

I don't ascribe to that theory. There is always hic-ups but the painting makes the picture not single brush stroke. If all we focused on is the Patriots resent history of horrible free agent signing we could call them a horrible FO as well.

Without a doubt they have some issues this year, that isnt my issue because I can make a list of issues I think they had this year, that we are on the same page on. I am just not willing to add willingness to spend money to mine and yours shared list.

I don't buy the Whiz became an idiot about the QB situation all on his own. No one is infallible but screwing up the most important position on the team?

I wrote this early in this thread but I think this is were it applies. Also dont underestimate the usual coaching flaw of every head coach in the NFL and the biggest reason why FA is more of a crap shoot then the draft is, that flaw being every coach thinks they can make a guy better then another coach tried to do. They get blinded and over confident that they can work with the physical/mental attributes and intangibles of a player better then another coach or coaches could. Wiz is the best thing to happen to this team ever but no one is infallible and I got to put this on his shoulders, especially since he got more power and say that came with his new uber expensive contract. Add in the fact that he apparently honestly thought he would have Warner this year and we are where we are. He didn't become stupid, he miscalculated or underestimated Warner leaving and his head coach ego got him to over estimate Anderson and possibly even Skelton who they may have got enamored with.

 

[joeshmo]

Firing Clancy only to hire the DC of the worst D in the league wreaks of dollars over winning

You mean the coach making more money then Clancy?

so does every other team... and I'll believe we extend important guys when I see it.

Like they did Dockett?

same as above... every other teams dont' have incentives or bonuses yet to be earned.

We have more bonuses, incentives, and such due then most of the NFL. Its the reason why every year fans see that they have 40 mill in cap space and I have to squash everyone's high by telling them that number is pre-incentives and bonuses, then the day of FA starts and everyone still wonders how we got from 40 mill in cap space to spend to 25 mill in just one day. For example I know for a fact that the 90 something in cap dollars we are spending this year doesn't include about 6-7 mill worth of workout bonuses that have been achieved, more then any other team in the league, concerning workout bonuses that is.

what other teams besides the Boys and Skins did this this year?

Saints, Jets, Raiders, Vikings, and Seahawks.

Also the list of this years numbers makes everything a moot point. Everyone including myself assumed that was salary information. That is not the case, that list is cap information. And there is a big difference between the two. Player salary/real money out the door in a given year never equals what you spent cap wise. Real money out the door could end up far less then your cap number or far more then your cap number or anything in between. So everyone including myself is making the mistake of using that list as a guide to what teams actually spent this year when that isn't the case at all. We could be in the top 10 in real money spent for all we know or we could be dead last. So to use that list in this discussion just wont hold any water for either side.

And I'll believe the above when I see it.

It may not happen but it is enough of a worry that teams are talking about and agents are salivating at the thought of teams having to restructure their players contracts, which means guaranteed money coming in. PFT brought it up as well a few weeks ago.

"But the Cowboys and the Redskins haven't racked up that bill by buying new players in 2010. Instead, both teams structured contracts in the past with an eye toward pushing large sums of money into the uncapped year. Recently, for example, the Cowboys gave receiver Miles Austin a contract with a $17 million base salary in 2010.

Both teams run the risk that the new CBA will include some type of reallocation provision aimed at reversing the effects of contracts engineered to take full advantage of the uncapped year. Though Jones and Snyder may regard such an outcome as unfair, two votes wouldn't be enough to block the move."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/18/cowboys-redskins-lead-the-way-in-uncapped-spending/