Cardinals: Trade/Competition Thoughts

Mitch

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First of all, congratulations to the Cardinals for acquiring T Brandon Gorin from the Patriots. Gorin is a solid player and a legitimate starter at RT.

This trade solidifies three of the five offensive line positions...LT (Leonard Davis), RG (Milford Brown) and RT (Brandon Gorin).

The questions are: at LG, Reggie Wells is a good pass protector, but he's an inconsistent and sometimes ineffective run blocker. Apparently 2nd round pick, Deuce Lutui, from USC, is not ready to start...and there has been little to no talk about Elton Brown moving over to challenge for the LG spot.

There has been some speculation that Wells could be tried at center, where it would appear that Nick Leckey, a solid technician, is making a strong case to supplant Alex Stepanovich as the starter.

Hopefully Wells and Leckey will fit the bill, otherwise, it may still be very difficult for the Cardinals to establish a respectable running game.

Do the Cards have another trade or two up their sleeves? Can they find a run blocking LG, so they can move Wells to center? Are they going to stand pat with their three TE prospects in Bergen, Edwards and Pope...when it appears none of them offers the team an NFL caliber blocker from the TE position, at least not yet...?

What about the #3 quarterback situation? If Warner gets hurt, the #3 becomes the #2...

What about the linebacking situation? Would the Cardinals be better off acquiring a middle linebacker so they can swing Gerald Hayes over to strong side linebacker?

And, wouldn't it be wise for the Cardinals to try to add another cornerback?

At this point the Cardinals will most likely go with what they've got...but another trade might pay huge dividends...

I was wondering this morning whether Matt Leinart would have had a two week holdout if he had been told from the get-go that he would be in a competition for the starting job with Kurt Warner and John Navarre?

Leinart had been told all along that the club would prefer him to tote the clipboard for a year while Kurt Warner takes the snaps...Leinart was told that he would compete with John Navarre for the #2 job...which, in reality, is almost laughable.

Leinart has played the party line by saying that he's in a good situation backing up a Super Bowl MVP and learning the ropes...but, Matt Leinart is too much of a competitor to want to stand idly on the sidelines week after week....which is why, if the Cardinals had given Leinart the incentive to compete for the starting job, I would be willing to bet you that Leinart would have signed and been in camp on time.

Knowing that all he had to do in camp was beat out John Navarre for the #2...and knowing that he didn't have a chance to start unless Warner was injured, did not put a sense of urgency in Leinart to be in camp on time.

Is there any question that competition makes a football team better?

Look at what's happening in the Cowboys' camp. Tony Romo took all the snaps at QB in the first pre-season game...and Romo performed well. Did that light a fire under Drew Bledsoe? Bledsoe played lights out last night...and played with a sense of urgency...had he not been pressed by Romo, one would wonder whether last night would have been another ho-hum pre-season game for Bledsoe.

Look at how well and hard FS Robert Griffith played for the Cardinals at New England. Isn't Griffith hearing Aaron Francisco's footsteps?

Whether young challengers for starting positions have a legitimate chance or not, establishing good, healthy competitions at all positions can be of tremendous benefit to a football team in its pursuit of putting the best, most competitive players on the field.
 

lobo

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thanks

well thought out a very good post indeed....more changes are to come...the powers that be fully understand the importance of a solid season and WILL NOT bet the farm on maybe's if they don't have to....it's that simple.
 

stewdog1

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Good post, but I disagree with you that the Big Red should have told Leinart he would be competing for the starting job.
 

Billy Flynt

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Mitch said:
Did that light a fire under Drew Bledsoe? Bledsoe played lights out last night...and played with a sense of urgency...had he not been pressed by Romo, one would wonder whether last night would have been another ho-hum pre-season game for Bledsoe.

Well he was playing against the Saints' defense.
 

SuperSpck

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I tend to agree with you about the "fire" of competition, but the quarterback spot is always viewed through a different set of eyes. The reason we have Warner here long term is because the team told him he would be their starter. If this was an open competition than it might muck up his current relationship with the team.

A happy player (Warner) can be just as effective as a player fearing for his job. Which is on the line not only by who's behind him, but by his own play (Navarre).

Add to the fact that this team's trying to put together a playoff run, having a rookie QB compete for the 1st string job may be sending the wrong message to the rest of the team.

"Kurt has to compete with the rook? Man how're we gonna beat the Seahawks twice this year if Kurt can't clearly beat a rookie?"
 

Pariah

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I think the only thing that we can/should reasonably expect to happen this season is to acquire another OL, whether that be at C or LG...or maybe just a backup LT.

Acquiring a MLB so we can move our MLB to OLB? Why not just hope to acquire an OLB? Hayes will be starting sooner rather than later, IMO.
 

SuperSpck

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I like Hayes' size and athletesism in the Mike. Though he'd make a fine Strong side. We do have Pace making a nice transition to Strong though.
How about a Will?

Isn't it harder to get a quality MLB over any OLB?
 

spanky1

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We have far too much talent at OG to go to the market for additional players.....even if Wells moves over to C.

My guess is that we are also pat at TE.
 

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how about Donnie Edwards as the WLB?

I am curious why everyone thinks Wells would be the answer at C? He has never performed the line calls (that I know of) and his lack of run blocking strength would be exposed there as well.
 

Cardiac

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SuperSpck said:
I tend to agree with you about the "fire" of competition, but the quarterback spot is always viewed through a different set of eyes. The reason we have Warner here long term is because the team told him he would be their starter. If this was an open competition than it might muck up his current relationship with the team.

A happy player (Warner) can be just as effective as a player fearing for his job. Which is on the line not only by who's behind him, but by his own play (Navarre).

Add to the fact that this team's trying to put together a playoff run, having a rookie QB compete for the 1st string job may be sending the wrong message to the rest of the team.

"Kurt has to compete with the rook? Man how're we gonna beat the Seahawks twice this year if Kurt can't clearly beat a rookie?"

I couldn't agree more. I also don't think Leinart signs quicker because the deal he got was no where near what any teams first offer was going to be. slanidrac's thread that Leinart was going to be tough to sign was dead on.
 

Cardiac

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Pariah said:
I think the only thing that we can/should reasonably expect to happen this season is to acquire another OL, whether that be at C or LG...or maybe just a backup LT.


While I doubt Gorin will be the savior for this O-line at least he can also be a backup at LT as well. Ross comes back in week 2 or so and becomes the back up RT and Gorin is the starting RT and back up LT. Now that's something I can live with.
 

Russ Smith

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stewdog1 said:
Good post, but I disagree with you that the Big Red should have told Leinart he would be competing for the starting job.

Me too if anything that would have protracted the negotiations as Condon would have demanded more money.

I stand by my stance right after he signed, this was all about Condon refusing to take a slotted deal, period. Condon was using Matt as a test case of how far he could push beyond the NFL slotting practice for rookies, he got him a great deal but if he had been told Matt was competing for the starting job he would have insisted even more and Matt would still be unsigned.

And teh reality is Matt is NOT competing for that job, it's just that Warner figures to get hurt at some point this year and that makes Matt more valuable to us.
 

football karma

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Russ Smith said:
Me too if anything that would have protracted the negotiations as Condon would have demanded more money.

I stand by my stance right after he signed, this was all about Condon refusing to take a slotted deal, period. Condon was using Matt as a test case of how far he could push beyond the NFL slotting practice for rookies, he got him a great deal but if he had been told Matt was competing for the starting job he would have insisted even more and Matt would still be unsigned.

And teh reality is Matt is NOT competing for that job, it's just that Warner figures to get hurt at some point this year and that makes Matt more valuable to us.


Russ -- you hit the nail on the head.

Leinart fired Steinberg when he thought he was slipping out of the top five -- and hired Condon because Condon said he could engineer a top five selection for Matt --

this was damage control by Condon -- if I cant get you picked in the top five, I will get you paid better than your slot (and btw -- he did).
 

BACH

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Great post and interesting thoughts as usual, Walter....
Mitch said:
The questions are: at LG, Reggie Wells is a good pass protector, but he's an inconsistent and sometimes ineffective run blocker. Apparently 2nd round pick, Deuce Lutui, from USC, is not ready to start...and there has been little to no talk about Elton Brown moving over to challenge for the LG spot......

There has been some speculation that Wells could be tried at center, where it would appear that Nick Leckey, a solid technician, is making a strong case to supplant Alex Stepanovich as the starter.

Do the Cards have another trade or two up their sleeves? Can they find a run blocking LG, so they can move Wells to center?
Elton looked good against Steelers' back-ups, but had from what I've read/heard a less than stellar camp. I'm thinking that Elton isn't ready to start in this sytem either (perhaps because he has practiced at RT in the off-season).

I think Step is struggling due to mental problems. I base this on the significant difference between his play at G at C last year. He was awful at C, but looked very decent at G, where he simply has to react and not think. Depending on how well he plays against a 4-3 this week, I think that he could potentially be benched before week 1. If that happens he'll slide to a back-up G spot where he looked great (as a back-up) last year. I'm thinking Leckey will start until Lutui is ready, then Wells slides to C.

I don't think we'll add a G, because we simply have Gs out the ying-yang. Lutui and Elton are raw but both awesome talents and Step is a solid back-up.

Mitch said:
Are they going to stand pat with their three TE prospects in Bergen, Edwards and Pope...when it appears none of them offers the team an NFL caliber blocker from the TE position, at least not yet...?
Edwards has been extremely disappointing this far. He's the starter because of his blocking, while Bergen and Pope are receiving WRs. Blocking TEs shouldn't be that hard to find and Edwards could be history if the right guy is among the last roster cuts. Bergen and Pope are safe. It's Edwards not playing up to expectations (as a blocking TE).

Mitch said:
What about the #3 quarterback situation? If Warner gets hurt, the #3 becomes the #2...
Good question...

Mitch said:
What about the linebacking situation? Would the Cardinals be better off acquiring a middle linebacker so they can swing Gerald Hayes over to strong side linebacker?
Nope.. Darling could easily take over at MLB with Hayes sliding to OLB or simply put Darling a OLB. I sincerely doubt Graves would be ready to give more than a 4th rounder for a player and I doubt anybody we could get for a 4th rounder wouldbe better than what we have. Darling is underrated and Huff has looked improved. You can't have stars at every unit. Our star players are on the DL and in the secondary. Hayes/DArling/Huff are solid. Pace is solid and could shine with experience. Dansby is a star when on the field. Mark Brown is a solid back-up. Blackstock has potential and though not ready to start he is very good as a situational pass-rusher. Our LBs are solid IMO.
Mitch said:
I was wondering this morning whether Matt Leinart would have had a two week holdout if he had been told from the get-go that he would be in a competition for the starting job with Kurt Warner and John Navarre?

Leinart had been told all along that the club would prefer him to tote the clipboard for a year while Kurt Warner takes the snaps...Leinart was told that he would compete with John Navarre for the #2 job...which, in reality, is almost laughable.

Leinart has played the party line by saying that he's in a good situation backing up a Super Bowl MVP and learning the ropes...but, Matt Leinart is too much of a competitor to want to stand idly on the sidelines week after week....which is why, if the Cardinals had given Leinart the incentive to compete for the starting job, I would be willing to bet you that Leinart would have signed and been in camp on time.

Knowing that all he had to do in camp was beat out John Navarre for the #2...and knowing that he didn't have a chance to start unless Warner was injured, did not put a sense of urgency in Leinart to be in camp on time.

Is there any question that competition makes a football team better?

Look at what's happening in the Cowboys' camp. Tony Romo took all the snaps at QB in the first pre-season game...and Romo performed well. Did that light a fire under Drew Bledsoe? Bledsoe played lights out last night...and played with a sense of urgency...had he not been pressed by Romo, one would wonder whether last night would have been another ho-hum pre-season game for Bledsoe.
Absolutely no correlation between Romo and Leinart.
Romo is veteran QB in the NFL and has been with the Cowboys for 4 years. Leinart is a rookie. Naming Leinart #2 hasn't got anything to do with his potential, but with the fact he's a rookie. Roethlisberger is the most succesful rookie QB ever, but he wasn't expected to get playing time in his rookie season either despite playing in very "QB-easy" system. It has something to do with not forcing a rookie QB into the action too soon.

Mitch said:
Look at how well and hard FS Robert Griffith played for the Cardinals at New England. Isn't Griffith hearing Aaron Francisco's footsteps?

Whether young challengers for starting positions have a legitimate chance or not, establishing good, healthy competitions at all positions can be of tremendous benefit to a football team in its pursuit of putting the best, most competitive players on the field.
I agree and another proof that this is the most talented roster that we have had in years.
 

slanidrac16

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Cmon Mitch. You saw what Warner did last year without a running game. You saw what how he carved up the Steelers on that opening drive last week. And how can you be willing to bet Leinart would have been in camp on time if he was given a shot to beat out Warner? How can you bet on something we will never know?
Leinart would get a shot at being the starter if this team wasn't somewhat poised to make a move. Everybody here hopes and prays Warner doesn't get hurt. Not because we question Leinarts potential, but because as long as Warners our qb we have a proven commodity that can help this offense be very, very good, especially if the running game starts to click.
And don't we have to show a little faith in the coaching staff? The current roster of players have been either with the team for some time now and the newer players have gone thru workouts, film sessions, mini camps and now 3 weeks of training camp. If they felt there was such a deplorable deficiency at any positionover the last 6 months don't you think some kind of roster moves would have been made? I.E. We just acquired an OT. Teams aren't to willing to part with anybody just yet for fear of injuries between now and opening day.
Yes, I hope we can shore up a couple of spots , but our best opportunity for that will come just prior to the final cuts.
There aren't many teams out there that are 2 deep at every position.
I also don't believe that there are many players on this roster or for that matter any roster that believes as long as they show up they will be starting. I believe there is competition every day, every game and every snap in a career of a NFL football player.
 

Duckjake

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And don't we have to show a little faith in the coaching staff?

Tried that with Tobin and McGinnis. Now I'm from Missouri.

I will say that under Green the Cards don't drag their feet when they have a personnell need like they have too many times in the past.
 

JeffGollin

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I note that the Cards got down to 3 TE's pretty early in preseason. I wonder if they either (a) plan to bring in someone new who can block or (b) convert someone - like Wakefield (who's 6-7) to a blocking TE
 

Chopper0080

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my turn to chime in...

LB is set for the time being because we have enough versatility to make it work until Dansby comes back. Darling or Pace compete for the Sam spot, Hayes stays at Mike, and Huff is at Will. We have depth with Darling who can play all spots and Blackstock can sub at the Will. Yes we could use another vet for depth but what our linebackers lack now is athletiscm and I am not so sure that type player is sitting around.

What makes Wells interesting at center is that his size prevents him from being blown up at point of attack. He plays w/ good leverage and technique though he is not going to blow anyone up. That's Leckey's main issue is that he tends to get blown back a little.
 

Pariah

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Chopper0080 said:
my turn to chime in...

LB is set for the time being because we have enough versatility to make it work until Dansby comes back. Darling or Pace compete for the Sam spot, Hayes stays at Mike, and Huff is at Will.
The coaches seem to think Pace is good enough to start because the Trib story on Dansby says that Hayes starts in the middle and Darling moved to the weakside to backup Huff.
 

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Mitch said:
First of all, congratulations to the Cardinals for acquiring T Brandon Gorin from the Patriots. Gorin is a solid player and a legitimate starter at RT.

You lost me at hello. I honestly didn't even read the rest of your post after this line.

I'm honestly stating this not from a position of knowledge, but from a position of educated supposition. From all I've read on various forums, Patriots fans aren't batting even an eyelash at the loss of this guy. Yes, it was a good move to bring in another RT. Is this guy going to help us? Unless he's Yusef Scott, yes, he'll definitely help.

Is he a "solid player and a legitimate starter at RT" as you put? Probably not. You don't get players like that in a late August trade for a 7th round draft pick. You get almost-cut players.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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I think once Lutui is ready to start at LG that's when you'll see a move of Wells to C.They'll probably live with Step through the first part of the season and if he doesn't perform then a switch will be made over the bye week.The main question is will Wells able to handle all the line call and mental aspect of playing C? During Steps' rookie year didn't McCown have to make all the line calls as well as the play and possible audibles? I'm pretty sure i remember reading that back then.
 

Alan

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NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert!
 

Totally_Red

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I was wondering this morning whether Matt Leinart would have had a two week holdout if he had been told from the get-go that he would be in a competition for the starting job with Kurt Warner and John Navarre?

Leinart had been told all along that the club would prefer him to tote the clipboard for a year while Kurt Warner takes the snaps...Leinart was told that he would compete with John Navarre for the #2 job...which, in reality, is almost laughable.

Leinart has played the party line by saying that he's in a good situation backing up a Super Bowl MVP and learning the ropes...but, Matt Leinart is too much of a competitor to want to stand idly on the sidelines week after week....which is why, if the Cardinals had given Leinart the incentive to compete for the starting job, I would be willing to bet you that Leinart would have signed and been in camp on time.





Knowing that all he had to do in camp was beat out John Navarre for the #2...and knowing that he didn't have a chance to start unless Warner was injured, did not put a sense of urgency in Leinart to be in camp on time.

Is there any question that competition makes a football team better?
========================================================


I have to disagree on the open competition for the #1 QB slot. The 2004 Giants did that and Kurt Warner easily won the job in preseason. After Eli Manning came for Warner in game 10 after a 5-1 start desolved to 5-4, the Giants were winless until the final game that season and Eli looked lost for a good part of that period. Even though Matt is the most NFL-ready by most accounts, most observers wouldn't say he's ready to start. I dare say most observers would put him a notch below Eli Manning.

Unlike the 2004 Giants in the first year of the Tom Coughlin era, this is a critical year for Denny Green. He stands a much better chance of coaching the Cardinals to the playoffs with the veteran Kurt Warner, who did a decent job last season, than with the rookie Leinart IMO. And the 2006 Arizona Cardinals are much closer in talent to the 2004 Giants than to the 2004 Pittsburgh Steelers under Ben Rothlisberger.
 
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Alan said:
NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert! NEM alert!
:shrug: All previous posters on this thread are long time posters...

Or are you just preparing us for the obvious?
 

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Mitch said:
but, Matt Leinart is too much of a competitor to want to stand idly on the sidelines week after week...

Really? Isn't this exactly what he did behind Carson Palmer for two years, and then still had to go through a QB competition with Matt Cassell? Matt Leinart is nothing if not a team player. He stood idly on the sidelines at USC when he could have tranferred to compete for a starting job.

I'm not sure that his position here is that different than his position at Southern Cal his freshman year.
 

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