Cardinals trade pick #23 for Hollywood Brown

[BritCard]

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[DaHilg]

I think it was more design than anything else. Brown had like 145 targets, and only 20 of them were deep throws or something like that. I'd say that number should be closer to 50 on that many targets.

That's why I basically disregard the advanced stats on Hollywood. He wasn't used right whatsoever.

Oh it was definitely by design, bc Lamar can’t make those throws. The whole offense is designed to let Lamar excel at the throws he can make. His completion percentage from year 1 to year 2 supports the difference or else he’d had been forever a 55% guy in the NFL.

 

[Krangodnzr]

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I've seen people criticize the trade, and then also say Hollywood could score 10+ TDs...something only a handful of receivers do every year.

Once pick 23 was approaching, it was quite clear that NONE of the top receivers were available and the Cardinals only option would have been to "reach" for a player OR trade up in the 2nd round.

I've grown more fond of the concept of trading picks for young, established veterans. Hollywood likely has 5+ more good seasons in him and he had proven he can be a good NFL player. Not a single draft pick has proven that.

 

[kerouac9]

I've seen people criticize the trade, and then also say Hollywood could score 10+ TDs...something only a handful of receivers do every year.

Once pick 23 was approaching, it was quite clear that NONE of the top receivers were available and the Cardinals only option would have been to "reach" for a player OR trade up in the 2nd round.

I've grown more fond of the concept of trading picks for young, established veterans. Hollywood likely has 5+ more good seasons in him and he had proven he can be a good NFL player. Not a single draft pick has proven that.

The potential downside is that you're giving up a higher pick than he was drafted at for one real cost-controlled year and then a big contract. What Brown has proven is that he can play in the NFL but he hasn't shown he's more than a Poor Man's DeVante Parker at any volume — and he complained in a role where he was getting 150+ targets a season and was the clear #1 guy on a playoff team.

The big-time downfield target stuff is almost entirely speculative based on his college career. There's very little precedent for a player that's the size of many middle school students to be a big-time receiver in the NFL.

 

[BritCard]

I've seen people criticize the trade, and then also say Hollywood could score 10+ TDs...something only a handful of receivers do every year.

Once pick 23 was approaching, it was quite clear that NONE of the top receivers were available and the Cardinals only option would have been to "reach" for a player OR trade up in the 2nd round.

I've grown more fond of the concept of trading picks for young, established veterans. Hollywood likely has 5+ more good seasons in him and he had proven he can be a good NFL player. Not a single draft pick has proven that.

The Rams built a great roster and doing nothing but trading picks for players.

I love the trade. Anyone saying it was over an overpay is nuts.

Stefon Diggs was 27 when traded to the Bills. He had 2 seasons of just over 1000 yards (something like 1040 and 1130). He cost a 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th (got a 7th back).

Brown is 24 and has one thousand yard season but he's also cost controlled for 2 years and was in a scheme that severely limited his ability. That cost's a late first all day. The trade value with #100 back was equivalent to trading pick #28. I guess had it been pick #33 everyone would be ok with it.

In his rookie year through his 1st 7 games played he had 454 yards at 65 yards per game. I believe he then had a foot injury that he played through but which limited him and he only had 130 yards the rest of the year. Had he been healthy all year he was on track for 1000+.

I like that he quietly handled his business with the Ravens. He didn't do the whole deleting socials and tweeting nonsense. He asked for a trade last year, didn;t get it and played on, ask quietly again this year and finally got it. That show's maturity.

In this offense with Nuk, Ertz, Green etc he's going to be great. I'd like him up in the slot against CB3's that run 4.5+ and just have him run goes, posts and slants.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I'm begging you, Cards Social Media, please stop trying to make "Bird City" happen.

There has to be something that we can do about this. "Bird City" has to be the worst ever. I couldn't happen to laugh at this guys comments:

It would have been far more appropriate to title the video The Inside of My Car Is An Oven City, Why Did Anyone Decide to Settle In a Desert City, or The Back of My Shirt Shouldn’t Be This Wet City.

 

[MrYeahBut]

There has to be something that we can do about this. "Bird City" has to be the worst ever. I couldn't happen to laugh at this guys comments:

Agree, BirdCity is beyond pathetic. #uglyduckling

 

[dreamcastrocks]

The Rams built a great roster and doing nothing but trading picks for players.

I love the trade. Anyone saying it was over an overpay is nuts.

Stefon Diggs was 27 when traded to the Bills. He had 2 seasons of just over 1000 yards (something like 1040 and 1130). He cost a 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th (got a 7th back).

Brown is 24 and has one thousand yard season but he's also cost controlled for 2 years and was in a scheme that severely limited his ability. That cost's a late first all day. The trade value with #100 back was equivalent to trading pick #28. I guess had it been pick #33 everyone would be ok with it.

In his rookie year through his 1st 7 games played he had 454 yards at 65 yards per game. I believe he then had a foot injury that he played through but which limited him and he only had 130 yards the rest of the year. Had he been healthy all year he was on track for 1000+.

I like that he quietly handled his business with the Ravens. He didn't do the whole deleting socials and tweeting nonsense. He asked for a trade last year, didn;t get it and played on, ask quietly again this year and finally got it. That show's maturity.

In this offense with Nuk, Ertz, Green etc he's going to be great. I'd like him up in the slot against CB3's that run 4.5+ and just have him run goes, posts and slants.

Aaron Donald and Cooper Cupp might disagree with you...

 

[Garthshort]

The potential downside is that you're giving up a higher pick than he was drafted at for one real cost-controlled year and then a big contract. What Brown has proven is that he can play in the NFL but he hasn't shown he's more than a Poor Man's DeVante Parker at any volume — and he complained in a role where he was getting 150+ targets a season and was the clear #1 guy on a playoff team.

The big-time downfield target stuff is almost entirely speculative based on his college career. There's very little precedent for a player that's the size of many middle school students to be a big-time receiver in the NFL.

You're assuming that who the QB is makes NO difference. Others disagree.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The potential downside is that you're giving up a higher pick than he was drafted at for one real cost-controlled year and then a big contract. What Brown has proven is that he can play in the NFL but he hasn't shown he's more than a Poor Man's DeVante Parker at any volume — and he complained in a role where he was getting 150+ targets a season and was the clear #1 guy on a playoff team.

Volume isn't the issue here though. It's usage. You can't debate that part when he only had 20 passes over 20 yards thrown his way on 145 targets. That's only 13% of the passes thrown his way were "deep targets". That's pitiful for a guy who's scouting report would tell you he excels in that usage.

The big-time downfield target stuff is almost entirely speculative based on his college career. There's very little precedent for a player that's the size of many middle school students to be a big-time receiver in the NFL.

Sure it's speculative, but he also had a QB who was well below average as a deep ball thrower except for last year.

Desean Jackson is around the same size and was the GOAT on deep balls. The size thing isn't really an issue.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The potential downside is that you're giving up a higher pick than he was drafted at

This is also not exactly true when you factor in the value of pick 100.

I keep seeing people in the media conveniently ignoring that the Ravens did toss in a 3rd. It's also quite telling that DeCosta flat out admitted this was a losing trade for the Ravens.

 

[SoonerLou]

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[SoonerLou]

The potential downside is that you're giving up a higher pick than he was drafted at for one real cost-controlled year and then a big contract. What Brown has proven is that he can play in the NFL but he hasn't shown he's more than a Poor Man's DeVante Parker at any volume — and he complained in a role where he was getting 150+ targets a season and was the clear #1 guy on a playoff team.

The big-time downfield target stuff is almost entirely speculative based on his college career. There's very little precedent for a player that's the size of many middle school students to be a big-time receiver in the NFL.

Without the foot injury he probably goes top 12.

Its a gamble for sure. It depends on him being that guy from college. Not really what he's shown in the NFL (in terms of giving up the value). Maybe a coach like Kliff is going to know how to use his skillset better than Greg Roman.

While I think Hollywood can/will be successful its also important that he's ok with games where he only catches 2 or 3 passes. Say what you will but Kirk never had a problem if it was other players who got the better matchups.

 

[BritCard]

Volume isn't the issue here though. It's usage. You can't debate that part when he only had 20 passes over 20 yards thrown his way on 145 targets. That's only 13% of the passes thrown his way were "deep targets". That's pitiful for a guy who's scouting report would tell you he excels in that usage.

Sure it's speculative, but he also had a QB who was well below average as a deep ball thrower except for last year.

Desean Jackson is around the same size and was the GOAT on deep balls. The size thing isn't really an issue.

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[BritCard]

This is also not exactly true when you factor in the value of pick 100.

I keep seeing people in the media conveniently ignoring that the Ravens did toss in a 3rd. It's also quite telling that DeCosta flat out admitted this was a losing trade for the Ravens.

Fans: He's not worth a 1st (#28)

Also fans: Should have been a 2nd (#33)

 

[kerouac9]

You're assuming that who the QB is makes NO difference. Others disagree.

I'm not assuming that. I'm actually taking it very much into account. Start with the foundational question: Do you expect Marquise Brown to see more or fewer targets with the Arizona Cardinals in 2022 than he saw with the Baltimore Ravens in 2021?

Volume isn't the issue here though. It's usage. You can't debate that part when he only had 20 passes over 20 yards thrown his way on 145 targets. That's only 13% of the passes thrown his way were "deep targets". That's pitiful for a guy who's scouting report would tell you he excels in that usage.

Sure it's speculative, but he also had a QB who was well below average as a deep ball thrower except for last year.

Desean Jackson is around the same size and was the GOAT on deep balls. The size thing isn't really an issue.

I agree that Brown can be more efficient in this offense. I just disagree that he can be more productive in it. At least in 2022 when he'll be competing for balls with a bunch of other guys.

Desean Jackson had already broken out by his third season. He was second-team All-Pro after his second year. When players show you who they are, maybe believe them?

Without the foot injury he probably goes top 12.

Its a gamble for sure. It depends on him being that guy from college. Not really what he's shown in the NFL (in terms of giving up the value). Maybe a coach like Kliff is going to know how to use his skillset better than Greg Roman.

While I think Hollywood can/will be successful its also important that he's ok with games where he only catches 2 or 3 passes. Say what you will but Kirk never had a problem if it was other players who got the better matchups.

Yeah. I guess they just maybe play more defense in the NFL than they do in the Big 12 and you don't just run by people here.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm not assuming that. I'm actually taking it very much into account. Start with the foundational question: Do you expect Marquise Brown to see more or fewer targets with the Arizona Cardinals in 2022 than he saw with the Baltimore Ravens in 2021?

It's just crazy to throw out his efficiency numbers when he is clearly being used poorly.

I agree that Brown can be more efficient in this offense. I just disagree that he can be more productive in it. At least in 2022 when he'll be competing for balls with a bunch of other guys.

Not as many guys now...

Desean Jackson had already broken out by his third season. He was second-team All-Pro after his second year. When players show you who they are, maybe believe them?

Yep he was used the way you would expect a 5'10, 175 speedster to be used. Was Brown? That's an emphatic no.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Fans: He's not worth a 1st (#28)

Also fans: Should have been a 2nd (#33)

Value is fairly straight forward in these trades.

You get a good, proven WR PLUS they throw in a 3rd. That means the Cardinals probably wanted to only give up #55. And they met in the middle ish.

 

[kerouac9]

It's just crazy to throw out his efficiency numbers when he is clearly being used poorly.

Not as many guys now...

Yep he was used the way you would expect a 5'10, 175 speedster to be used. Was Brown? That's an emphatic no.

ADoT doesn't go back to Jackson's second season (2009), but it doesn't seem like he was particularly beloved by the advanced stats, either. In 2009 he was 20th in DYAR and 29th in DVOA. I don't think DVOA loves deep shot artists because they don't get the first down conversion opportunities that you want.

I guess the question is what kind of production do you expect from Brown this season knowing that he's changing offenses and QBs? I'd be surprised if he exceeds 1100 yards and 8 TDs (assuming he stays healthy).

It should be noted also that while Jackson was a productive receiver at times in his career, he was never really a #1 for anyone. In 2009 he exceeded 1100 yards with Brent Celek and Jeremy Maclin at this side. In 2010 Maclin took the lion's share of the targets.

Maybe in his fourth season Marquise Brown shows what he wasn't ever able to do in Baltimore and become the best possible version of himself. That's a potential outcome, but not the most likely one.

 

[BritCard]

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[Chris_Sanders]

Former Ravens WR Marquise Brown reveals other teams who made play for him before trade to Cardinals

Former Ravens wide receiver Marquise Brown revealed which teams tried to trade for him before his move to the Arizona Cardinals

www.yahoo.com

On “I Am Athlete Tonight“, Brown discussed multiple things relating to the trade, including what other teams were in the mix for his services before he was ultimately traded to Arizona. He mentions that the Kansas City Chiefs and Green Bay Packers made a play for him but it was ultimately the Cardinals that were his preference, and Arizona ended up securing his talents.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

So that's why a second round pick wasn't going to work. There was competition for his services. He must really love Kyler to pick him over Mahomes.

 

[Realist Cards Fan]

So that's why a second round pick wasn't going to work. There was competition for his services. He must really love Kyler to pick him over Mahomes.

LOL yeah i not getting that at all. Proven superbowl winning QB? Or bestfriend from college? if were talking about wanting to win and making your career have possibly a superbowl attached to you i not sure why you wouldnt want mahomes.

 

[DVontel]

LOL yeah i not getting that at all. Proven superbowl winning QB? Or bestfriend from college? if were talking about wanting to win and making your career have possibly a superbowl attached to you i not sure why you wouldnt want mahomes.

I got breaking news for you if you think “championships” is the only thing a majority of athletes think about.

 

[Realist Cards Fan]

Well MOST athletes want to WIN. News flash for you. Maybe you didnt play any sports, but when i was playing any sport ever i wanted to win. Heck even playing ping pong with friends i only wanted to win it wasnt just about "i get to be with my friends and enjoy these moments".