Cards Like Big Ben Better Right Now

[pete]

Originally posted by EnglishCardinal
just a point - if McCown had all the 'tools' then why was it not so obv to mac and graves that he should be given a chance when Blake was struggling last year ?

i even remember quotes from graves saying it was not clear who #2 QB was (Mccown or parsons)

Good question! I think that reflects more on Graves and Mac because McCown showed that he was the best QB on the roster last year when he got the chance.

 

[EnglishCardinal]

''ll be so happy when this discussion comes to a conclusion on draft day. It seems that this topic rears it's head every two weeks with the same arguments pro McCown and the same anti McCown.'

i would not say i was anti Mccown - i would love to see us Draft Eli and then see McCown keep him out the team becasue that would prob mean we are in the playoffs !

but really, i cant wait for draft to start!

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by spanky1
I'll be so happy when this discussion comes to a conclusion on draft day. It seems that this topic rears it's head every two weeks with the same arguments pro McCown and the same anti McCown.

I find myself in an interesting spot in the discussion, though. While I am certainly pro-"draft a QB," I am not anti-McCown. I do think he can be a decent QB. I like him. But I don't think he is a put-the-team-on-his-back-and-lead-them-to-victory type of player.

I also worry that it was just last year when there were very public concerns expressed about his deer in the headlights syndrome. I worry that the team will have a hard time rallying around him if things start to go south. Granted, I think the Vikings game did wonders to mitigate that, but still, I have my concerns. It's seems from what I've heard that for most of his time in AZ he hasn't been viewed as a great leader or one the team can completely have faith in.

 

[EnglishCardinal]

Originally posted by pete
Good question! I think that reflects more on Graves and Mac because McCown showed that he was the best QB on the roster last year when he got the chance.

you are prob correct there !! - problem is, Graves still has his fingers in the Cardinals draft pie !

 

[Tangodnzr]

aaahhhh yessss....if it were all only that simple.


There were reasons, besides McCown's "natural talents" that resulted in his being "ranked" where he was. A lot had to do with where he played, and the circumstances. Just like Manning be a "Manning" and playing where he did probably have an effect too.

It seems quite popular these days to diss Mac/Graves, etc and their ability to pick "talent". But I don't buy that.
Josh impressed a lot of people at the Senior bowl, and Mac happened to be able to have a week with him to see for himself where the kid "WAS".

...and finally....even though playing for a historically successful major college program can help a kid's development, it is no guantee of success, by any means.

Look how many small college players have gone on to have very successful NFL careers... just with the Cards....Aeneas Williams, Larry Centers, Roy Green, Tootie Robbins, Neil Lomax, Stump Mitchell, to name just a few....and lest we forget...another Sam Houston State player that I wouldn't mind seeing on the DL again now.....Michael Bankston.
Which again brings us to the point, all these prognostications/draft rankings by Sports writers, etc. are anything, I repeat, anything...but infallible.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by vikesfan
NE did not have a dominating defense from the stats I saw they were mid-range.

Well, I don't know what stats you were looking at.

FYI: The New England Patriots were ranked #7 in the NFL in total defense. #4 in rush defense. #15 overall in pass defense. #1 overall in scoring defense (the only D stat that counts according to you). #1 in the AFC and #2 overall in takeaways.

I wonder what stats you were looking at?

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
aaahhhh yessss....if it were all only that simple.
There were reasons, besides McCown's "natural talents" that resulted in his being "ranked" where he was. A lot had to do with where he played, and the circumstances. Just like Manning be a "Manning" and playing where he did probably have an effect too.

Tell that to Pennington and Leftwich.

They were ranked very high by scouts and both went to a very small school: Marshall.

I agree there is something to the 'small school' vs 'big school' issues but when it comes down to evaluation it means very little.

Its more about mechanics, polish, leadership, arm strength, accuracy, smarts, etc etc

 

[Red Air Force]

Objectivly I can see extremly valid points to each side of the QB/Non-QB argument, and have decided not to debate it any further.

If we draft one of the top 10 players in this draft I will be Happy.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

Originally posted by Pariah

It's seems from what I've heard that for most of his time in AZ he hasn't been viewed as a great leader or one the team can completely have faith in. [/B]

Isn't that Emmitt's job?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
No personal offense meant to anyone, (nor dorected to anyone specific person) BUT......

I say anyone who categorically states that Josh McCown is....to use Cheesy's analogy......sh*t that can't be made into chicken salad......is full of it.

He has demonstrated he's got the "tools". That's all you can ask for.
He may only have a limited amount of NFL playing experience, but however little it may be....it is far more than any college QB...who may also have "tools".

Does that guarantee he'll be a success? I don't think so. But that holds equally true for everyone one, including the current year's "can't miss college phenom(s)."

I don't believe anyone - including me - categorically stated that Josh McCown is "chicken-sh*t" - I actually think Josh has some decent upside - I just happen to think that Manning or Ben have more from watching them in college.

The chicken salad argument wasn't intended to be a jab at Josh - not sure why you took it that way - it was just to show how incredible a coach Dennis Green is and tickles me to think what he could do with a guy who wasn't the fourth rated QB in a draft and didn't tranfer out of a Div 1 school - and see what his brain could do for a kid who took a Miss St. that sucked for years and actually made them into a tough program in the SEC or a kid like Ben who put that team on his back and brought them into the national rankings.

Like I said - I won't be upset with us if we don't draft a QB because Green probably could make a decent or above average QB out of Josh - I just hunger for true greatness and I havenm't seen that flash from McCown - that's all - but if you want to try and pick a fight - try it with someone else - I got over thais crap a long time ago.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
but if you want to try and pick a fight - try it with someone else - I got over thais crap a long time ago.

Wuss.

 

[Skkorpion]

Originally posted by pete
Good question! I think that reflects more on Graves and Mac because McCown showed that he was the best QB on the roster last year when he got the chance.

Ain't that the truth. And it still took direct intervention by Rod Graves to force McGinnis to play McCown.

 

[Skkorpion]

I disagree with every one of you. Bill Walsh has stated over and over and over that the most important thing in considering the worth of a QB is his completion percentage.

I want Phillip Rivers and I would draft him at the #3 in a heartbeat. Barring that, I want Wilfork, or I trade down and take Phillip Rivers at a lower pick in that first round.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
I disagree with every one of you. Bill Walsh has stated over and over and over that the most important thing in considering the worth of a QB is his completion percentage.

Bill Walsh also compared Jake Plummer and Rick Mirer to Joe Montana - but I see you're thinking a stud QB is the trick! We just differ on the actual player - not the position.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

I am officially going on record that I think picking a QB in the first round this year is stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid. That being said, we'll probably draft one. This is a bad arguement, but what the hell: We drafted "Lil Ceasar" Gramatica because he came from a football family and had a good leg. He didn't amount to J.S. I feel the same about Manning. If his name was something like Franklin Smith, do you really think the hype around him would be so big? He is Eli, an unproven NFL QB, not Payton, the overpaid Icon who will have as many SB rings when he retires as Dan Marino.

 

[This_Guy]

What I am saying, and have been saying for months, is I dont think it is very prudent to go into the season with all your eggs in McCowns basket with the 'Hope' he will be good.

DG is not doing that. DG is very confidant that one of McCown or King will be a franchise-level QB. You all need to stop thinking that King is not a starting caliber QB with plenty of upside as well.

it was just to show how incredible a coach Dennis Green is and tickles me to think what he could do with a guy who wasn't the fourth rated QB in a draft and didn't tranfer out of a Div 1 school - and see what his brain could do for a kid who took a Miss St. that sucked for years and actually made them into a tough program in the SEC or a kid like Ben who put that team on his back and brought them into the national rankings.

exactly. How about what DG can do with a guy who picked Tulane specifically for the challenge, and then ended up taking a perennial loser to 12-0 and #7 in the country, while setting the all time NCAA passing efficiency record?

It is McCown vs King NOT McCown vs Manning or Roth. DG will NOT draft a QB, end of discussion. This is a waste.

 

[Snakester]

This is good news. The Cards and me are on the same page. I think Ben Roethlisberger is the best choice we could make in this years draft.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by This_Guy
DG is not doing that. DG is very confidant that one of McCown or King will be a franchise-level QB. You all need to stop thinking that King is not a starting caliber QB with plenty of upside as well. exactly. How about what DG can do with a guy who picked Tulane specifically for the challenge, and then ended up taking a perennial loser to 12-0 and #7 in the country, while setting the all time NCAA passing efficiency record?

It is McCown vs King NOT McCown vs Manning or Roth. DG will NOT draft a QB, end of discussion. This is a waste.

King a franchise QB? He was a nice p/u as long as he isnt starting too long. He is no franchise QB. He wasnt in Tampa and he wont be in AZ.

What he will do is give the Cards a chance to win IF he doesnt have to start 12-14 games due to an injury to McCown

 

[BACH]

Originally posted by Pariah
I am so tired of hearing this argument for no taking a QB. Yeah, there are QBs that aren't high draft picks playing at a high level in the NFL. Does that mean QBs shouldn't be drafted high? Absolutely not.

This is also flawed logic. You can't say the 4th QB in this years draft is equal to the 4th QB taken in years past. Think about the '82 QB class or the '99 class (I think that was the couch class) and compare those to last year's. You can't tell me that QB#4 was regarded the equally across the years.

This is a cop out on your part, VF. DG isn't JC--you don't need to have blind faith in him. Grow some stones and develop an opinion of your own.

You're using flawed logic.... You keep saying McCown was the #4 QB because he was drafted 4th - What kind of logic is that? McCown was rated as the #3 QB, but was the least polished QB, so the Redskins took Ramsey over McCown. McCown was considered a Pennington-clone. All the tolls, very smart, but extremely raw. McCown was named starter 5 games earlier than Pennington...

If you want to compare him to a QB this year it would be Roethlisberger, but not quite as good.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by BACH
You're using flawed logic.... You keep saying McCown was the #4 QB because he was drafted 4th - What kind of logic is that? McCown was rated as the #3 QB, but was the least polished QB, so the Redskins took Ramsey over McCown. McCown was considered a Pennington-clone. All the tolls, very smart, but extremely raw. McCown was named starter 5 games earlier than Pennington...

If you want to compare him to a QB this year it would be Roethlisberger, but not quite as good.

HUH??

A pennington clone? I dont think so. Pennington was rated much higher than McCown and they are polar opposite QB's.

Pennington is very very accurate, not athletic, not a strong arm, but is one of the bests IMO at reading and picking apart defenses.

McCown has only average accuracy, very athletic, much stronger arm etc.

They arent anything alike IMO

 

[This_Guy]

King a franchise QB? He was a nice p/u as long as he isnt starting too long. He is no franchise QB. He wasnt in Tampa and he wont be in AZ.

Who is the winningest QB in Tampa history? That would be Shaun King.

Which team scored more points than any team in Tampa franchise history? That would be the 2000 Bucs, the ONLY year that King started.

If King had enough starts, he'd qualify for one of the 5 highest winning percentages in the NFL. (14-8, 64%).

Since 1999, the Bucs have had 3 starting QBs, here are their winning percentages

Dilfer: 6-4: 60%
King: 14-8: 64%
Johnson: 26-19: 57%

He has more starts, more wins, more TDs, and less INTs than Jake Delhomme....and he's two years younger. People should learn lessons about judging QBs too early. King is still VERY young in NFL QB terms. So this, "King is an adequate backup if he doesn't have to play too much" is completely uninformed.

Mark my words, King can be a franchise QB. You'll get to see soon enough what Gruden has been wasting. He's going to do it to Simms now too.

 

[Skkorpion]

This_guy, nice post. Gather the facts, then make your point. You're a welcome addition to the board.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by This_Guy
Who is the winningest QB in Tampa history? That would be Shaun King.

Which team scored more points than any team in Tampa franchise history? That would be the 2000 Bucs, the ONLY year that King started.

If King had enough starts, he'd qualify for one of the 5 highest winning percentages in the NFL. (14-8, 64%).

Since 1999, the Bucs have had 3 starting QBs, here are their winning percentages

Dilfer: 6-4: 60%
King: 14-8: 64%
Johnson: 26-19: 57%

He has more starts, more wins, more TDs, and less INTs than Jake Delhomme....and he's two years younger. People should learn lessons about judging QBs too early. King is still VERY young in NFL QB terms. So this, "King is an adequate backup if he doesn't have to play too much" is completely uninformed.

Mark my words, King can be a franchise QB. You'll get to see soon enough what Gruden has been wasting. He's going to do it to Simms now too.

Oh you mean his big breakout year when he completed a whopping 54 percent of his passes? or the same year he had a total of 2769 yards for an astounding 173yards per game average? Or was it his 75 QB rating that finally convinced you? How about his record 18 td's and 13ints that year?

Come on man. I like the siging of King and I like that he is an athlete with good mobility. But dont try to sell me that he is a 'Franchise' QB. I have seen him play!

Oh and BTW you convenietly left out the Bucs defense and its role in his wins. If I am not mistaken, werent they pretty good?

 

[Ryanwb]

this_guy, you rule!

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Yes we will contend if we have a great offense, but, I can tell you, that, after a few playoff appearances, it wont be enough just to contend. Ask Eagles fans.

Defense is what will win it for us guys. The superbowl.

Payton manning just got his big fat contract and now the nags are casting off players left and right trying to get under the cap.

Do you really think they'll get back to the AFC championship again next year? I doubt it. and so what if they do? Payton will throw four more oskies?

Give me a defense that makes opposing receivers knees shake when they think about the down-and-in that their QB just called, and that causes an opposing QB make sure his flak jacket is properly aligned when its 3rd and 12.

You can keep your 10 million dollar, pretty boy, "thoroughbred" QBs. I say fire McCown out there as the starter, and load up on Defense in the draft.