Cards Like Big Ben Better Right Now

[This_Guy]

Oh you mean his big breakout year when he completed a whopping 54 percent of his passes? or the same year he had a total of 2769 yards for an astounding 173yards per game average? Or was it his 75 QB rating that finally convinced you? How about his record 18 td's and 13ints that year?

It was his SECOND YEAR in the league. Compare those numbers to Carr, Harrington and Ramsey this year. Looks pretty good.

How about we compare King's first year starting numbers to Tom Brady's second year in the league, and his first year starting.

Brady: 2843 yards, 18 TDs, 12 INTs, 43 yards rushing, 0 TDs (18 total TDs)
King: 2769 yards, 18 TDs, 13 INTs, 353 yards rushing, 5 TDs (23 total TDs)

And he's started exactly one game since. So it would be entirely accurate to say "King had at least as good, if not a better start to his career than Tom Brady".

Oh and BTW you convenietly left out the Bucs defense and its role in his wins. If I am not mistaken, werent they pretty good?

True, but that doesn't explain why Brad Johnson and/or Trent Dilfer, guys who have both been pro bowlers, couldn't win as many games or score as many points.

Think about this....King's top 3 receivers when he set the scoring record were Keyshawn Johnson, Jacquez Green and Reidel Anthony.

How about this statistic:
Keyshawn played in 16 games with Shaun King and scored 8 TDs.
Keyhsawn played in 41 games with Brad Johnson and scored 9 TDs.

Food for thought- I'll say it again, Denny Green knows what he has in King, and that's why he will NOT draft a QB. He knows that either McCown or King will be everything he needs.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by This_Guy
It was his SECOND YEAR in the league. Compare those numbers to Carr, Harrington and Ramsey this year. Looks pretty good.

How about we compare King's first year starting numbers to Tom Brady's second year in the league, and his first year starting.

Brady: 2843 yards, 18 TDs, 12 INTs, 43 yards rushing, 0 TDs (18 total TDs)
King: 2769 yards, 18 TDs, 13 INTs, 353 yards rushing, 5 TDs (23 total TDs)

And he's started exactly one game since. So it would be entirely accurate to say "King had at least as good, if not a better start to his career than Tom Brady". True, but that doesn't explain why Brad Johnson and/or Trent Dilfer, guys who have both been pro bowlers, couldn't win as many games or score as many points.

Think about this....King's top 3 receivers when he set the scoring record were Keyshawn Johnson, Jacquez Green and Reidel Anthony.

How about this statistic:
Keyshawn played in 16 games with Shaun King and scored 8 TDs.
Keyhsawn played in 41 games with Brad Johnson and scored 9 TDs.

Food for thought- I'll say it again, Denny Green knows what he has in King, and that's why he will NOT draft a QB. He knows that either McCown or King will be everything he needs.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by This_Guy
It was his SECOND YEAR in the league. Compare those numbers to Carr, Harrington and Ramsey this year. Looks pretty good.

How about we compare King's first year starting numbers to Tom Brady's second year in the league, and his first year starting.

Brady: 2843 yards, 18 TDs, 12 INTs, 43 yards rushing, 0 TDs (18 total TDs)
King: 2769 yards, 18 TDs, 13 INTs, 353 yards rushing, 5 TDs (23 total TDs)

And he's started exactly one game since. So it would be entirely accurate to say "King had at least as good, if not a better start to his career than Tom Brady". True, but that doesn't explain why Brad Johnson and/or Trent Dilfer, guys who have both been pro bowlers, couldn't win as many games or score as many points.

Think about this....King's top 3 receivers when he set the scoring record were Keyshawn Johnson, Jacquez Green and Reidel Anthony.

How about this statistic:
Keyshawn played in 16 games with Shaun King and scored 8 TDs.
Keyhsawn played in 41 games with Brad Johnson and scored 9 TDs.

Food for thought- I'll say it again, Denny Green knows what he has in King, and that's why he will NOT draft a QB. He knows that either McCown or King will be everything he needs.

I never compared King to anyone. Period. I have never liked Dilfer, in fact would rather have King. Johnson has proven his worth at QB when he had a 93 QB rating and threw for 22 td's to only 6 ints. If King does that then I will eat my words, but until then I would not designate him, as you do, a 'Franchise' QB.

True it was his second year but you fail to mention the caliber of team TB had in 2000 compared to what Harrington, Ramsey, and Carr have had to work with. None of them (outside d. Davis in Houston) had a 1000 yard rusher while Dunn rushed for 1200 yards and 8 td's. Dont act like King carried the team on his back! He had 18 TD passes, not 35!

Like I said I like the signing but I would not put all my faith that King will be a franchise QB!

 

[This_Guy]

Johnson has proven his worth at QB when he had a 93 QB rating and threw for 22 td's to only 6 ints. If King does that then I will eat my words, but until then I would not designate him, as you do, a 'Franchise' QB.

That's great, and it only took him until his 12 season in the NFL to do it.

All I'm saying....is don't count Shaun King out. It was a bigger signing than anyone realizes now. King has only started one game since his second season, and has become a league-wide afterthought.

However, all the facts (not opinions), say that King was well on his way to becoming a franchise QB. He was made the scapegoat for the Bucs offensive problems and hasn't been heard from since. (and the Bucs....still have offensive problems)

Watch him in the mini-camps and preseason and I think you'll be shocked.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Only

Originally posted by cheesebeef
I have the sneaking feeling that the Cards are gonna piss a whole lot of people off in this draft (me not being one of them) and take a QB - All this Denny Green is in love with Fitz and Josh McCown is our starting qb stuff could be a smoke-screen - I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the Cards took either Manning or Ben if they fell to them and neither should anyone else - that being said I don't think it's a lock or anything, but I just have a feeling - and so far my feelings have been pretty dead on this offseason - can't wait to see what happenes - it's just 5 weeks away!

It will only piss those off who of course don't want a QB.

When DG was saying Josh was the man and everybody had the Fitz and DG connection figured out then it was.....well...that's the way it should be cause DG knows best.

Of course if he drafts a QB then DG won't know best...in their eyes.

 

[Assface]

Originally posted by This_Guy
Dilfer: 6-4: 60%
King: 14-8: 64%
Johnson: 26-19: 57%

Dilfer was drafted when the team was still very bad (he played in the orange uniforms), King was drafted after the team had become a contender and his one year as a starter was when they were already a perenial playoff team.

The offensive game plan wasn't very good for either of them though so it's hard to read either.

I think Dilfer is the most underated QB in the league.

He went 11-1 as a starter for Baltimore including a Superbowl win. Yes, it was a very good team defensively.

In 2001 in 4 starts (6 total games) he had a 92 QB rating and would have been the starter in 2002 had he not been injured.

Bucs had a horrible offense for both QB's because the line was never any good (still isn't) and they had a bunch of small, fast recievers running hook patterns (better for big guys who can fight of corners) and the OCs never planned to anyone's strengths except for the FB.

King is a decent pickup and while he is athletic he is short, inacurrate, small hands (drops the ball) and is not a great decision maker. He is good for filling in short term and is a great insurance policy but he will never be a good full time starter.

 

[This_Guy]

Dilfer was drafted when the team was still very bad (he played in the orange uniforms), King was drafted after the team had become a contender and his one year as a starter was when they were already a perenial playoff team..

Bucs had a horrible offense for both QB's because the line was never any good (still isn't) and they had a bunch of small, fast recievers running hook patterns (better for big guys who can fight of corners) and the OCs never planned to anyone's strengths except for the FB.

Very good take. Except here's where you can compare Dilfer and King....

In '99, Dilfer was coming off a probowl year and King was the 3rd string rookie running the scout team until Dilfer (and Eric Zeier) got hurt and forced King into action. And the results were interesting.

With Dilfer starting: 6-4, 15.8 ppg
With King starting: 4-1, 19.2 ppg

There was no question that the offense was better under King, even as an unprepared rookie. It was the same team, same season, same defense.

 

[Buckybird]

Originally posted by Oran
A QB is a need, but I don't think we should get one this year. If Green is serious about getting to the play-offs, then we need to draft an immediate starter. Manning or Ben would be great, but I think it will set us back a year. Am I searching for instant gratification? I guess so. Rookie QBs are such a risk, and Green has had great success placing any QB in his system. Josh probably won't be a Hall Of Famer, but for this year I think we are okay with McCown and King.

Last year I said we should get King and everyone laughed. He's the best back-up Qb we've had since...I can't think of anyone but Dave Brown, and I'd take King over Brown anyday.

It seems like the Tom Brady, Garcia, Brooks, Jake D route is the way to go. Let a QB mature with another team for a few years and then let them fight for the starting position. Look at Carr or Harrington. They are slowly becoming good QBs, and by the time they are solid QBs their contracts will be up. Why deal with that?

 

[Buckybird]

Originally posted by Oran
A QB is a need, but I don't think we should get one this year. If Green is serious about getting to the play-offs, then we need to draft an immediate starter. Manning or Ben would be great, but I think it will set us back a year. Am I searching for instant gratification? I guess so. Rookie QBs are such a risk, and Green has had great success placing any QB in his system. Josh probably won't be a Hall Of Famer, but for this year I think we are okay with McCown and King.

Last year I said we should get King and everyone laughed. He's the best back-up Qb we've had since...I can't think of anyone but Dave Brown, and I'd take King over Brown anyday.

It seems like the Tom Brady, Garcia, Brooks, Jake D route is the way to go. Let a QB mature with another team for a few years and then let them fight for the starting position. Look at Carr or Harrington. They are slowly becoming good QBs, and by the time they are solid QBs their contracts will be up. Why deal with that?

DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT WE ARE CLOSE TO REACHING THE PLAYOFF? WE ALL SAY THAT EVERY YEAR. WE ARE WHAT WE ARE!!!
WE ARE AT LEAST 2 SEASONS AWAY.

 

[40yearfan]

Do not draft a QB in the first round. I want to win this year, not a year or two from now. The Cards cannot afford to have an expensive QB riding the bench because he's not ready to play yet. If they're gonna spend those kind of bucks (3rd. overall pick) get someone who will start this season. They need an impact player who can come in and help this team immediately. They also need more help on the defensive side of the ball, so the first round should go to defense.

 

[vikesfan]

This_guy great use of facts! See proven winner.

BTW New England the year they won the 1st SB had the 24th defense in the NFL!

You no longer need a franchise QB you just need a good QB.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by vikesfan
This_guy great use of facts! See proven winner.

BTW New England the year they won the 1st SB had the 24th defense in the NFL!

You no longer need a franchise QB you just need a good QB.

You need to specify a bit more when you use stats like that. They were 24th in YARDS allowed, they were 6th in scoring defense which is a much more meaningful stat than yardage. Oftentimes yards simply means they were ahead a lot, the opponents passed a lot, and padded their yardage late against prevents.

This_guy makes some compelling arguments for King. I don't have any site that tells me precisely what happned to Warrick Dunn that made his performance fall off after King got benched. I know he had some injuries but my vague recollection is the coaches decided to feature Alstott more and Dunn less and that's what caused it?

I guess my real comment on King would have to be setting a franchise record is great, but it just proves how bad the offense has been in Tampa that their franchise record is THAT low.

My personal impression from watching him is he's got some talent but he's wildly inaccurate, gets sacked far too much (like most young Qb's) and that he doesn't have a big enough arm to get the ball downfield. He does seem to protect the ball, doesn't throw a ton of picks.

I just tend to think that the W/L record the year he started had a lot more to do with the defense, than it did with Shaun King.