Cards Shuffle

[40yearfan]

Milford Brown, the starting left guard last year, is getting married this weekend and won't be at the minicamp. That is part of the motivation for moving Wells, but Brown already was in danger of losing his starting job

Since Brown isn't going to be available for this mini camp, why not experiment? As Wiz said, once training camp opens, he'll keep the same Oline.

 

[football karma]

But that's not your argument. Your argument is that these coaches know what's supposed to happen based on the play call and assignments. As someone who's watched tape from college games, I know that the coach who called the play knows that, but there's nothing marked on the tape itself.

If that's the case, than someone here could just as easily see what went wrong with the play as Grimm and Whis. We've been watching these players much longer, and have a longer background with them.

It's really incredible to me how many people are willing to defer to "authority" when it comes to these decisions when so many times the authorities have been very, very wrong.

Are you claiming coaches with a decade (or more) of watching film and designing plays wont be able to recognize what is supposed to happen when they watch tape -- or that they need a diagram ahead of time to know. That silly. As silly as suggesting as the average amatuer sitting at home can do it just as well.

Just because "we" have watched alot of TIVO'd games doesnt mean we have enough information to competently evaluate line play. Simply not having access to coaches tape (vs TV feeds) is a big enough disadvantage setting aside the complete lack of experience.

As I said earlier, the proof will be in the pudding -- and if the line (or offense) is groundhog day -- then the criticism will be well warranted.

Until then, I think you have to give two coaches who are very well regarded in the NFL the benefit of the doubt, and save the histrionics for at least the preseason.

 

[40yearfan]

But that's not your argument. Your argument is that these coaches know what's supposed to happen based on the play call and assignments. As someone who's watched tape from college games, I know that the coach who called the play knows that, but there's nothing marked on the tape itself.

If that's the case, than someone here could just as easily see what went wrong with the play as Grimm and Whis. We've been watching these players much longer, and have a longer background with them.

It's really incredible to me how many people are willing to defer to "authority" when it comes to these decisions when so many times the authorities have been very, very wrong.

Yes K9. We realize that you know more than the coaches. You have told us so many times.

 

[CardinalChris]

My intrigue is why not Gandy at LG and keep Wells at RT? Was Wells that bad, for that matter was Brown that bad at LG. The motivation, or "what they saw" means as much to me as where they play. It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall.

 

[PrescottLooie]

My concern is that, like last year, this board had a OL line up that was very close to what we eventually ended up with. It took the "Coaches", what, eight games to see the light. I just hope that "the Whiz and Grimm" know what they're doing. Wells did NOT excell at Guard ! Gandy MAY do better at Tackle under Grimm but at this point it's a crap shoot.

 

[Duckjake]

Until then, I think you have to give two coaches who are very well regarded in the NFL the benefit of the doubt, and save the histrionics for at least the preseason.

Not until those coaches prove they got their jobs because they are competent and not just because they are part of football's good old boy network.

I've seen too many failures in Arizona (and elsewhere for that matter) to think otherwise.

40year, excepted, he thinks everyone in a position of authority is smarter than he is.

 

[Zeno]

Its great to be a Cardinal fan. That is all.

 

[BigRedArk]

Some random data points that make me wonder:

1. hellestrae on 910 yesteday AM (and btw-- a guy who sat through 10 years of offensive line meetings, and represented yesterday that he got to watch coaches film of the o-line last year -- so he has some credibility in my book)

He noted that in watching film that it was obvious to him that the o-line didnt consistently know individual assignments (half the group blocking one play, the other blocking a different one), and where help was coming from (if you have help inside, do not let your man beat you outside). He concluded it was coaching (o-line and offensive coordinator) because it was multiple players, rather than just one.

3. Why is it the Anthony Clement can stink for the Cardinals (playing alongside the #2 pick in the draft and everyone's savior if only we let him play guard, with another first rounder at the other tackle) yet is pretty competent for the Jets, who started two rookies and had a journeyman playing next to him.


My conclusion from all this is that there is something way beyond just talent, and that coaching matters -- and not just offensive line coaching -- I think the whole offensive staff matters. Well see.

Yeah all this random data makes me wonder too. Doesn't this make a strong case for building chemistry on the OL? Sounds like to me that the problem of not consistently knowing individual assignments and where help was coming from screams of a lack of chemistry. Seems like you may have just made a good case for keeping the same OL to start the season as the same one that finished it last year perhaps?

Clement had a couple of good years for us as I recall but injuries didn't help him. Maybe part of his problem was that he was playing next to a different guy most of the years he was here?

 

[football karma]

Yeah all this random data makes me wonder too. Doesn't this make a strong case for building chemistry on the OL? Sounds like to me that the problem of not consistently knowing individual assignments and where help was coming from screams of a lack of chemistry. Seems like you may have just made a good case for keeping the same OL to start the season as the same one that finished it last year perhaps?

Clement had a couple of good years for us as I recall but injuries didn't help him. Maybe part of his problem was that he was playing next to a different guy most of the years he was here?

Good question -- but it doesnt explain the Jets relative success in a short period of time (two rookies, and Clement, a journeyman added -- under a new system -- and the unit seemed to work).

The Patriots seem to make changes every year at two positions on the line, and it always seems to work (and of the guys go elsewhere -- ala Ashworth and Gorin, they cant seem to play all of a suddden)

I think chemistry is definately a factor -- but there is something else at play as well.

 

[kerouac9]

Just because "we" have watched alot of TIVO'd games doesnt mean we have enough information to competently evaluate line play. Simply not having access to coaches tape (vs TV feeds) is a big enough disadvantage setting aside the complete lack of experience.

Have you actually seen coaches' tape? If you're talking at looking at Safety, cornerback, or WR play, then I'd agree with you, but what you're looking at--line play--is in the center of the screen for the entire sequence until the ball is out or the RB is tackled. It's probably better than a lot of the coaching film, which has to capture everything from the QB's dropback to the depth of the safeties.

As for the lack of experience, I think that's a bogus argument. Just because I can't paint a picture with perfect perspective doesn't mean that I don't know what one looks like. I can't necessarily correct Mike Gandy's initial drop, but I can diagnose what's wrong with it. The flaws show up on film to anyone with a modicum of experience. My 17 year old brother can point out the flaws in various linemens' technique.

Where good OL coaches earn their money is in explaining to the player how they could correct those flaws, and get them to do it right time after time.

 

[JeffGollin]

If I (a) planned to draft either Thomas or L Brown, (b) had a high regard for Reggie Wells, (c) knew Gandy was versatile enough to be useful at any non-center position, (d) wanted 4/5 of my offensive line to be intact and (e) wanted to disguise my intentions about drafting Thomas...

I'd leak information to someone like MJ that my offensive line lineup was set (it implies we're not interested in drafting a tackle if our line is already set).

And by slotting Gandy at RT, I could then draft either Thomas or Brown and drop them into Gandy's RT spot without screwing up the other four positions. (Gandy could then revert to a swing role or challenge Ross and Wells for the starting LT or LG spot).

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Have you actually seen coaches' tape? If you're talking at looking at Safety, cornerback, or WR play, then I'd agree with you, but what you're looking at--line play--is in the center of the screen for the entire sequence until the ball is out or the RB is tackled. It's probably better than a lot of the coaching film, which has to capture everything from the QB's dropback to the depth of the safeties.

As for the lack of experience, I think that's a bogus argument. Just because I can't paint a picture with perfect perspective doesn't mean that I don't know what one looks like. I can't necessarily correct Mike Gandy's initial drop, but I can diagnose what's wrong with it. The flaws show up on film to anyone with a modicum of experience. My 17 year old brother can point out the flaws in various linemens' technique.

Where good OL coaches earn their money is in explaining to the player how they could correct those flaws, and get them to do it right time after time.

Most fairly bright people who lack experience feel this way, until they actually get some, and the wider perspective it offers. Part of growing up and getting on with life, personal and professional. As to the reference to a painting: You're just telling us that you know what you like, nothing more.

 

[kerouac9]

Most fairly bright people who lack experience feel this way, until they actually get some, and the wider perspective it offers. Part of growing up and getting on with life, personal and professional. As to the reference to a painting: You're just telling us that you know what you like, nothing more.

Not true. Plenty of people can name the elements of a story but not write one. Going further, the teachers of the best writers in the country were usually (likely always) mediocre authors themselves. Take it another way: for as great a DT as Joe Green was, he stunk up Sun Devil Stadium as a coach.

You can't just say, "it's not that way" without backing that up. Well, you can--since you just did and all--but you ought to at least explain how.

I know what a great lesson plan looks like, and I can make a good one myself, but I'm still working on taking the time to make the quick good one into a great one. The painting reference is not about quality, it's about technique, and that's what we're talking about. Maybe it's the reasons behind mixed media, or the proper way to fragment a narrative, or the correct kinds of on-stage business. People can recognize the problem without knowing how to fix it.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Personally I don't like the fact that Wells is moved back inside to guard. Wells is better suited to play tackle. I'd rather see Brown starting at guard over Wells. If Wells can't beat out Gandy or Ross at tackle then I'd rather him be a backup tackle. I think Wells struggles at guard.

This lineup tells me one thing for sure. The new coaching staff definitely wants to establish the run. They have put two road graders who are more like guards on the outside(Ross and Gandy) and have Lutui on the inside. If they put Brown back in at LG when he gets back from his wedding, that is one physical OL. It's a total 180 from what we have seen from our OL over the past decade. It definitely has the feel of a power running game.

Now the only question is can Leinart survive when the Cardinals are forced to pass the ball?

 

[D-Dogg]

"When we get to training camp, I'd like to put them in one spot and leave them there so we can develop some chemistry," Whisenhunt said.

That is VERY good news. That means they want to decide on their starters before training camp begins, so they are doing their experiments now. No week to week shuffle going on through week 10 or 12 this season, it seems. THANK QUAN!!!.

 

[D-Dogg]

Tell that to his wife...

Tell his wife to look at his fat paycheck.

 

[40yearfan]

Not until those coaches prove they got their jobs because they are competent and not just because they are part of football's good old boy network.

I've seen too many failures in Arizona (and elsewhere for that matter) to think otherwise.

40year, excepted, he thinks everyone in a position of authority is smarter than he is.

Yeah, I don't have the audacity to think that a guy who's spent his whole life in organized football knows less about the game than I do. I'll stick to my disipline and look to our coaches for their football knowledge. I do believe that the Cards have finally struck paydirt.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Not true. Plenty of people can name the elements of a story but not write one. Going further, the teachers of the best writers in the country were usually (likely always) mediocre authors themselves. Take it another way: for as great a DT as Joe Green was, he stunk up Sun Devil Stadium as a coach.

You can't just say, "it's not that way" without backing that up. Well, you can--since you just did and all--but you ought to at least explain how.

I know what a great lesson plan looks like, and I can make a good one myself, but I'm still working on taking the time to make the quick good one into a great one. The painting reference is not about quality, it's about technique, and that's what we're talking about. Maybe it's the reasons behind mixed media, or the proper way to fragment a narrative, or the correct kinds of on-stage business. People can recognize the problem without knowing how to fix it.

How experience will inform your views, your opinions with a sagacious certainty? Well, there are no shortcuts, you're just going to have to put in the time, like the rest of us.

 

[CardShark]

There is nothing to suggest that this line is long term. It may not be this way past this mini-camp. Brown isn't here, we don't know who we'll get out of the draft and the coaches are exploring for the players abilities. To me, it's just player evaluations that need to be done before training camp opens. It means nothing. We have very well respected coaches that have to learn what they have in a short amount of time. I think we need to hold back the criticism until they are shown for their shortcomings.

 

[Stout]

I don't like it. It's idiotic, especially now that we hear it isn't just some weird one-time thing. The coaches seem to REALLY believe that Wells is a guard. What, does moving to the desert make you stupid and moronic and cause you to lose all of your coaching ability? EVERYBODY KNOWS BY NOW THAT WELLS IS NOT A FRAKKIN' GUARD!!!! For crying out loud! Everybody should know by now that Brown was one of our better linemen last year, is a heckuva lot better than Wells at OG, and that Wells is a heckuva lot better than either Ross or Gandy at OT. Ugh. Why? Why, oh why, is this crap being done!?!?!?

 

[Mitch]

There is nothing to suggest that this line is long term. It may not be this way past this mini-camp. Brown isn't here, we don't know who we'll get out of the draft and the coaches are exploring for the players abilities. To me, it's just player evaluations that need to be done before training camp opens. It means nothing. We have very well respected coaches that have to learn what they have in a short amount of time. I think we need to hold back the criticism until they are shown for their shortcomings.

True, CardShark. But this news is very disturbing...it obviously signals that the new coaching staff does not understand the strengths of their personnel.

It was bad enough to overpay for two UFAs in Al Johnson and Mike Gandy, one of whom did not play last year and the other struggles so much at tackle that he was moved to guard.

The moment the fortunes of the Cards' o-line changed last year was the moment that Nick Leckey replaced Alex Stepanovich at center--Milford Brown replaced a struggling Reggie Wells at LG--and Reggie Wells was switched to RT, where he played good, solid football.

Now it's back to square one...and really, the only player in place that we can seemingly count on to be good where he is is 2nd year RG Deuce Lutui. Go figure.

Oliver Ross is NOT a LT...that's a joke.

Reggie Wells is not a LG...that's a joke.

Al Johnson (our $7M dollar man) may NOT beat out Nick Leckey, who, IMO, is the most under-valued and under-rated player on the roster.

Mike Gandy is NOT a RT...that's a joke. In fact, how any coach could decide that Gandy is the guy to protect Matt Leinart's blindside when there's a guy on the roster who already has---is beyond any sense of reason or logic.

Therefore...at this point...seeing that at least 3 of the 5 positions may be played by players whose strengths don't fit those positions...it should cause all of us great concern for the braintrust (or rather, lack thereof) that went into these decisions.

And I don't just blame Whisenhunt and Grimm...I blame Graves and the entire Cardinal front office for this debacle.

 

[PJ1]

True, CardShark. But this news is very disturbing...it obviously signals that the new coaching staff does not understand the strengths of their personnel.

It was bad enough to overpay for two UFAs in Al Johnson and Mike Gandy, one of whom did not play last year and the other struggles so much at tackle that he was moved to guard.

The moment the fortunes of the Cards' o-line changed last year was the moment that Nick Leckey replaced Alex Stepanovich at center--Milford Brown replaced a struggling Reggie Wells at LG--and Reggie Wells was switched to RT, where he played good, solid football.

Now it's back to square one...and really, the only player in place that we can seemingly count on to be good where he is is 2nd year RG Deuce Lutui. Go figure.

Oliver Ross is NOT a LT...that's a joke.

Reggie Wells is not a LG...that's a joke.

Al Johnson (our $7M dollar man) may NOT beat out Nick Leckey, who, IMO, is the most under-valued and under-rated player on the roster.

Mike Gandy is NOT a RT...that's a joke. In fact, how any coach could decide that Gandy is the guy to protect Matt Leinart's blindside when there's a guy on the roster who already has---is beyond any sense of reason or logic.

Therefore...at this point...seeing the at least 3 of the 5 positions may be played by players whose strengths don't fit those positions...it should cause all of us great concern for the braintrust (or lack thereof) that went into these decisions.

And I don't just blame Whisenhunt and Grimm...I blame Graves and the entire Cardinal front office for this debacle.

I am trying hard to just ignore this whole mini camp proposed OL thing and pretend it doesn't mean much this early. I am afraid I agree with Mitch though as these moves are just bizarre no matter what time of year it is. We just need a LT and we will be OK in my opinion. Why mess with the pieces that did work. What film led them to believe Wells is better at guard and Gandy is a better tackle?

Please let this be caused by Brown not being available and a coaches attempt to get Ross's confidence back.

If they really believe this OL has the potential to work we are in for a long season.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I do believe that the Cards have finally struck paydirt.

seriously just interested, and not trying to stir the pot, but when's the last time the cards made a major change and you did NOT feel that way? curious.

 

[CardShark]

Mitch,
I agree with all of your assessments, yet I have to allow the new staff to see that for themselves. I'm confident that this will not be the lineup come training camp. There's no risk to Leinart or Edge at this time, so let them explore and learn. Maybe they are testing for depth. I'm also confident that we'll have a starting tackle with our first pick in the draft. I don't know who though.

 

[CardShark]

seriously just interested, and not trying to stir the pot, but when's the last time the cards made a major change and you did NOT feel that way? curious.

I for one feel it's the most talented coaching staff they've had. I'm hoping that finally have hit paydirt.