Channing Frye bother you?

[BC867]

Dude, it should be clear to you by now that the Suns aren't ever going to be what you want them to be. And while I agree with your position and share your frustration to an extent, do you have to keep going on and on about it in every single one of your posts, no matter what the original topic? While I don't have many posts on this board I have been reading it on and off for about 10 years now, and you (and others) constantly repeating yourself about the Suns having no/weak inside game etc really has gotten old. We all get it, okay? But it's not us the fans that you have convince.

I understand how you feel. Now try to understand how fans who have put our hearts into the Suns game by game, season by season for, say, forty years (as I have) feel.

Jerry Colangelo and the current ownership may be satisfied with putting on an entertaining show for the home crowd during the season. But, as I watch the Suns, it pains me to watch a team -- my team -- who, for 42+ seasons, doesn't get it about striving for excellence. The pinnacle.

Is there anything wrong with wanting that?

This isn't about the ASFN board. This is about the team that we've made our own. The board is just a format for talking about it. 'Sort of like group therapy.

Each of us has the right to share our opinions. And I'll wait for the day when it gets to you, too. You wouldn't be the first. It hit me about a decade after first rooting for the Suns. When John MacLeod moved the best defensive Guard in the NBA -- DJ -- to guard a Power Forward in the playoffs, thus weakening us at two positions.

 

[Catlover]

It hit me about a decade after first rooting for the Suns. When John MacLeod moved the best defensive Guard in the NBA -- DJ -- to guard a Power Forward in the playoffs, thus weakening us at two positions.

Every team has had moments such as this. I don't disagree that we've had a disappointing run at the center position but I disagree that we have intentionally gone small historically. The worst mistakes this franchise has made came about because of our quest for that elusive big guy.

Speaking of having your shooting guard play the opposing team's power forward. Remember that time we moved our point guard to the center position to play against the center for Philly? Oh wait, that wasn't us. Still, I seem to remember that turning out fairly well for whatever team that was.

 

[mojorizen7]

Speaking of having your shooting guard play the opposing team's power forward. Remember that time we moved our point guard to the center position to play against the center for Philly? Oh wait, that wasn't us. Still, I seem to remember that turning out fairly well for whatever team that was.

Are you really going to go in this direction? A 6'9" 230 lb Magic Johnson is your argument for playing little guys out of position and having success?

 

[Catlover]

Are you really going to go in this direction? A 6'9" 230 lb Magic Johnson is your argument for playing little guys out of position and having success?

Not at all. It's my argument for demonstrating you can't point to DJ guarding a power forward and call it proof of anything. I agree we are a soft team and have been soft historically. I even agree that part of that is due to a choice by management. However, we've never walked away from a chance to get Olajuwon, Jabbar, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan or Robinson etc.

We've tried on several occasions to bring in a big man and things just haven't worked out right for us. We find out the guy has shrapnel in his foot or a drug problem or two left feet. I'd like to see us focus more on defense but I'd do it by drafting and bringing in quality defenders regardless of position. Instead, we bring in big guy stiff after big guy stiff and wonder why we can't be an effective defensive team.

 

[BC867]

It's not just about Centers. Hedo is a SF, signed on to replace Amar'e at PF. Shawn Marion was a SF moved to PF, just to name two recent cases. And DJ, in the case I cited, was a PG playing PF.

The one and only time in the Suns 42 year history when they moved a bigger guy to play a smaller position was when Larry Nance arrived as the first of the NBA's 6'10" Small Forwards, which moved career-long Small Forward Walter Davis to 2-Guard. The only occasion in 42 years.

Going lighter at the Center position (Alvan Adams at 212 lbs. for a decade) and Power Forward position have been a Suns theme for a long time.

It's just like the government spending $12 billion per month sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq to avenge 9/11. It's not avenging anything and we sorely need that money here.

Playing small ball for four decades (right up to the present) is an obsession justifying losing out on the coin toss for Lou Alcindor. It did hurt us. When are we going to move on and join the NBA?

 

[Catlover]

It's not just about Centers. Hedo is a SF, signed on to replace Amar'e at PF. Shawn Marion was a SF moved to PF, just to name two recent cases. And DJ, in the case I cited, was a PG playing PF.

The one and only time in the Suns 42 year history when they moved a bigger guy to play a smaller position was when Larry Nance arrived as the first of the NBA's 6'10" Small Forwards, which moved career-long Small Forward Walter Davis to 2-Guard. The only occasion in 42 years.

Going lighter at the Center position (Alvan Adams at 212 lbs. for a decade) and Power Forward position have been a Suns theme for a long time.

It's just like the government spending $12 billion per month sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq to avenge 9/11. It's not avenging anything and we sorely need that money here.

Playing small ball for four decades (right up to the present) is an obsession justifying losing out on the coin toss for Lou Alcindor. It did hurt us. When are we going to move on and join the NBA?

When we lost out on Alcindor we didn't draft a little guy and put him at center. We drafted Neal Walk, a highly regarded center in his own right. And despite your claim, we have had bigger men guard down (Cliff Robinson for example guarded just about every position on the court). We've also tried putting people in their proper positions so that we can appear to be a traditional team and we've gotten our butt kicked along the way by doing so. We didn't trade DJ (a guard) for Robey (a big man) so that we could play small ball.

We've proved over and again that simply putting a big guy in at center doesn't neutralize the other center unless your guy is also pretty decent. Look at all the big men that ate us alive when Luc Longley was on the floor. We didn't draft Bedford so that we could play small ball either.

As for Adams, yes, he was a bit undersized. However, at the start of his career he was a very effective center and easily among the 10 best at his position. How tall was Dave Cowens (center for that Boston Celtics team you idolized). When Adams went to the bench and we played with Dennis Awtrey, Dale Schlueter, Jeff Cook, Bayard Forrest or any of the other big guy stiffs we took a huge hit out there. Adams wasn't the problem no matter how much you try to re-write history. By the end of his career he was more a liability than an asset but that's true of a lot of players that played for a decade plus.

We've drafted and traded often in search of a quality big man. Lucas, Kelly, Longley, Truck, X and many others were brought in to solve our rebounding problems or to make us tougher. If you argued that we sucked at putting together a big, strong effective defensive team I'd have no choice but to agree with you. However, I can't agree that we've always gone small simply because we choose to be small. It's just not that simple.

 

[BC867]

...that Boston Celtics team you idolized...

I'm wondering where you got that from. Actually, before I moved here from NJ 32 years ago, the team I "idolized" was the Knicks and their (only two) Championships.

With a prototype Center, Willis Reed. Prototype Power Forward, Dave DeBusschere. Prototype Small Forward, "Dollar" Bill Bradley. Prototype 2-Guard, first Dick Barnett, then Earl "The Pearl" Monroe. And a strong Point Guard, Walt "Clyde" Frazier.

As a side note, Frazier was the master at pump-faking his defender into the air and drawing the foul on an outside jump shot.

If he had played after the NBA adapted the ABA's 3-point shot and moved his outside shot back 5 feet, he would have been the master of the 4-point play.

As intelligent a player as our Steve Nash is, and the way he draws charges, I would get a real kick seeing him incorporate that.

I hope you don't mind my turning your negative post into a positive one.

 

[Catlover]

I'm wondering where you got that from. Actually, before I moved here from NJ 32 years ago, the team I "idolized" was the Knicks and their (only two) Championships.

With a prototype Center, Willis Reed. Prototype Power Forward, Dave DeBusschere. Prototype Small Forward, "Dollar" Bill Bradley. Prototype 2-Guard, first Dick Barnett, then Earl "The Pearl" Monroe. And a strong Point Guard, Walt "Clyde" Frazier.

As a side note, Frazier was the master at pump-faking his defender into the air and drawing the foul on an outside jump shot.

If he had played after the NBA adapted the ABA's 3-point shot and moved his outside shot back 5 feet, he would have been the master of the 4-point play.

As intelligent a player as our Steve Nash is, and the way he draws charges, I would get a real kick seeing him incorporate that.

I hope you don't mind my turning your negative post into a positive one.

I don't mind you turning your own negative post into a positive one, no matter how you got there.

 

[Catlover]

I'm wondering where you got that from. Actually, before I moved here from NJ 32 years ago, the team I "idolized"

You've said before that you weren't a Celtics fan but you've also commented favorably on the way they've put teams together. I should have said you idolized their management rather than their players.

 

[BC867]

You've said before that you weren't a Celtics fan but you've also commented favorably on the way they've put teams together. I should have said you idolized their management rather than their players.

I wouldn't turn your evaluation "commented favorably on the way they've put their teams together" into "idolized".

Tell me, is there any basketball fan who wouldn't comment favorably on the way the Celts have put their teams together?

Excellence and results deserve respect. The Celtics. The Lakers. I respect their history, as well. Whom do I root for? Our home team. If they're out of the picture, whom do I root for? The Western team over the Eastern team. 'Every year since I became an Arizonan thirty-two years ago.

 

[Catlover]

I wouldn't turn your evaluation "commented favorably on the way they've put their teams together" into "idolized".

Tell me, is there any basketball fan who wouldn't comment favorably on the way the Celts have put their teams together?

Excellence and results deserve respect. The Celtics. The Lakers. I respect their history, as well. Whom do I root for? Our home team. If they're out of the picture, whom do I root for? The Western team over the Eastern team. 'Every year since I became an Arizonan thirty-two years ago.

You say potato I say idolized. But, seriously, I also have a lot of respect for the way Boston has been managed through the years.

 

[Hayduke]

I want to know whose working the magic on our FO to convince them that Frye would be something different that what he's been doing his whole career. They need to get back to work and convince another team he's the next Shaq and ship his ass out. Bring back Diaw!

 

[BC867]

They need to get back to work and convince another team he's the next Shaq and ship his ass out. Bring back Diaw!

Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Covert Rain]

Bring back Diaw!

 

[binkar]

Frye is one of my top 5 least favorite Suns of all time.

 

[Superbone]

Frye is one of my top 5 least favorite Suns of all time.

That's a bit extreme.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That's a bit extreme.

He's been the whipping boy of choice since shortly after donning the uniform. There are a lot of things he doesn't do well but it's amazing following the game threads. Someone points out just about every bad thing he does but rarely does anyone point out the good things he does. Even if this ratio is upside down the play by play bias here goes a long way towards shaping and increasing the Frye hate.

IMO, he has value approaching his contract but people seem to want him to have value approaching his size. It's never going to happen. He is what he is, a very flawed big man that is incapable of playing like a big man. He helped us win a lot more games last year than he cost us but I doubt many here will ever see past his flaws.

Steve

 

[DeAnna]

Channing doesn't bother me, but Robin Lopez does.

So I've watched 4 games now... I've never seen a 7ft'er miss so many easy lay ups at the basket like Robin does.

 

[binkar]

That's a bit extreme.

It's just a personal style of play thing. I also couldn't stand Rodney Rogers, who was a good player. Just because I don't like a player doesn't mean they are worthless, just that I don't like their style of play.

Have to give him credit for his amazing play last night though. I'll take 1 point and 11 boards with that kind of defense all day.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's just a personal style of play thing. I also couldn't stand Rodney Rogers, who was a good player. Just because I don't like a player doesn't mean they are worthless, just that I don't like their style of play.

Have to give him credit for his amazing play last night though. I'll take 1 point and 11 boards with that kind of defense all day.

I enjoyed Rodney's first year with the Suns as much as I've enjoyed watching anyone play for Phoenix. It's too bad he didn't play that way afterwards. This team would be perfect for him.

Steve

 

[binkar]

I enjoyed Rodney's first year with the Suns as much as I've enjoyed watching anyone play for Phoenix. It's too bad he didn't play that way afterwards. This team would be perfect for him.

Steve

Exactly my feelings. Problem was that after the great first year he chucked up every ball that touched his hand.

 

[JS22]

Frye couldn't hit a damn thing last night, but he was hustling his ass off on defense and even grabbed 10 rebounds. I can't hate him now, but it would be nice if he made a few shots.

 

[Covert Rain]

Channing doesn't bother me, but Robin Lopez does.

So I've watched 4 games now... I've never seen a 7ft'er miss so many easy lay ups at the basket like Robin does.

It's more then that for me. He has terrible hands. I had 3 games still on my DVR. I watched parts of the game again. I don't remember the last time I have seen a Center miss handle so many good passes. He also plays below the rim for such a big guy too.

 

[BC867]

Have to give him credit for his amazing play last night though. I'll take 1 point and 11 boards with that kind of defense all day.

Frye's rebounding is improving, from an F to a D. His softness, however, by trying to tap that 3rd chance putback instead of grabbing it and putting it up with authority is reminscent of Shawn Marion -- an opportunity rebounder but not a power rebounder.

Eleven rebounds looks good in the stats (albeit a triple-overtime game), but in reality we won the game in spite of Frye at Center.

He'll have his chance, though. Especially when he plays with Warrick at PF more than with Turkoglu.

The question is why is Lopez underachieving, after last season?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Frye's rebounding is improving, from an F to a D. His softness, however, by trying to tap that 3rd chance putback instead of grabbing it and putting it up with authority is reminscent of Shawn Marion -- an opportunity rebounder but not a power rebounder.

Eleven rebounds looks good in the stats (albeit a triple-overtime game), but in reality we won the game in spite of Frye at Center.

He'll have his chance, though. Especially when he plays with Warrick at PF more than with Turkoglu.

The question is why is Lopez underachieving, after last season?

It's still early so I'm not going to write Lopez off but I've been concerned about him for awhile now. Last year, we gave him a lot of credit for turning himself and the team around once he joined the starting lineup. People often commented how much more effective Amare looked with Lopez out there but I've asked a different question a few times. How much of Robin's success was due to playing alongside someone like Amare? I still don't know the answer but every day that question seems to gain relevance.

I'd like to see more time with a bigger lineup. Play Hedo, Warrick and Lopez together and see what that does for Robin's play and our rebounding. Put them on the court with Dragic and Richardson and let's find out if we have the makings of a "future" team out there. IMO, it would be a shame to start sending pieces away mid-season without finding out if this would work. Maybe 2 tweener forwards side by side could make up for not having a traditional power forward.

Steve