Chase Edmonds "now or never"

[SECTION 11]

Go dude Go

 

[Krangodnzr]

It's not circular logic if one accepts the premise that the key to a good running game is an effective O-line.

Yeah it's exceedingly rare, to nearly impossible to have a good running game with a bad offensive line.

There have been LOTS of teams to run the ball well with average RBs. Too bad Stout can't see that both Conner and Edmonds are basically average players.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Football 100: You still actually have to have a serviceable running back.

See, here's the scornful reply I was expecting. Krang is 100 percent cool if we lose Conner for a long stretch and have nothing but Edmonds because just any old RB will do, duh!

Again, Krang, if any old RB will do, why isn't every NFL team set at the position? I know what your answer will be! Because they don't have good OLs, right? Circular logic at its finest.

It's pretty much always true. Don't worry about RB much and just build your line. Look at how Conner played when the Steelers line was still good. He made a Pro Bowl.

 

[Stout]

It's pretty much always true. Don't worry about RB much and just build your line. Look at how Conner played when the Steelers line was still good. He made a Pro Bowl.

There you have it. Don't worry much about RB and just build your O-line. Pretty much any Cards RB in our checkered history will do as long as we have a good O-line. Which we know is patented crap. Plenty of the scrubs we've had would fall down at a light breeze. You need more than just a body at the position.

It's not circular logic if one accepts the premise that the key to a good running game is an effective O-line.

A (singular) key to a good running game is an effective O-line. ANOTHER key is an effective RB corps. Not a stellar one or a stable of stud RBs, but an effective one. So, adjust your premise and I'll agree.

Yeah it's exceedingly rare, to nearly impossible to have a good running game with a bad offensive line.

There have been LOTS of teams to run the ball well with average RBs. Too bad Stout can't see that both Conner and Edmonds are basically average players.

Sure, the OL is key. So are the RBs. I'm glad you FINALLY can admit you need at least average RBs instead of just anybody will do hot garbage RBs. This is progress!

I can see that they're basically average players, sure. That brings up a plethora of problems in your gaping blind spot, though. Conner is average, yet offset that with injury issues that keep him off the field and big-moment choke jobs. Not a good combo for an average player. Combine that with Chase being a (self-admitted) low-touches guy who doesn't thrive as the lone starting player, and it's not a great corps to rely upon. Add to that that it's not like we have a guaranteed road-grating offensive line--still some big question marks there--and there's still tons of work to be done.

Now Krang, Quebec, answer me a simple question please. No misdirects, no snark, no "But offensive line!" shenanigans, just a simple reply to a simple scenario. Say Conner gets a high-ankle sprain and is out for four weeks. How confident are you in our RBs during his absence?

That is a wholly believable scenario and isn't trying to pin yinz down to any kind of a yes-no response. How comfortable would you be in our RBs and why?

 

[QuebecCard]

There you have it. Don't worry much about RB and just build your O-line. Pretty much any Cards RB in our checkered history will do as long as we have a good O-line. Which we know is patented crap. Plenty of the scrubs we've had would fall down at a light breeze. You need more than just a body at the position.



A (singular) key to a good running game is an effective O-line. ANOTHER key is an effective RB corps. Not a stellar one or a stable of stud RBs, but an effective one. So, adjust your premise and I'll agree.



Sure, the OL is key. So are the RBs. I'm glad you FINALLY can admit you need at least average RBs instead of just anybody will do hot garbage RBs. This is progress!

I can see that they're basically average players, sure. That brings up a plethora of problems in your gaping blind spot, though. Conner is average, yet offset that with injury issues that keep him off the field and big-moment choke jobs. Not a good combo for an average player. Combine that with Chase being a (self-admitted) low-touches guy who doesn't thrive as the lone starting player, and it's not a great corps to rely upon. Add to that that it's not like we have a guaranteed road-grating offensive line--still some big question marks there--and there's still tons of work to be done.

Now Krang, Quebec, answer me a simple question please. No misdirects, no snark, no "But offensive line!" shenanigans, just a simple reply to a simple scenario. Say Conner gets a high-ankle sprain and is out for four weeks. How confident are you in our RBs during his absence?

That is a wholly believable scenario and isn't trying to pin yinz down to any kind of a yes-no response. How comfortable would you be in our RBs and why?

It should go without saying that Conner's absence in your scenario is not good, and we would all face those four weeks with some trepidation.

Trepidation, however, does not automatically mean that Chase and Eno can't handle the demands, and our IMPROVED offensive line should be the key to our running game before, during, and after Conner's absence.

 

[Stout]

It should go without saying that Conner's absence in your scenario is not good, and we would all face those four weeks with some trepidation.

Trepidation, however, does not automatically mean that Chase and Eno can't handle the demands, and our IMPROVED offensive line should be the key to our running game before, during, and after Conner's absence.

Well, I got half an answer, at least, which is more than I expected I mean, of course we'd face those weeks with trepidation, and of course it would be significant trepidation. No one would be confident Eno and Chase could handle everything. An improved OL will be key to a whole heck of a lot of this season's success, no doubt about it. Problem is, teams would be able to absolutely ignore the RBs in that scenario and just key on the passing game/stopping Kyler running. That would be tough to deal with.

I'm hoping to be 1,000 percent wrong on Conner so we don't have to find out!

 

[QuebecCard]

Well, I got half an answer, at least, which is more than I expected I mean, of course we'd face those weeks with trepidation, and of course it would be significant trepidation. No one would be confident Eno and Chase could handle everything. An improved OL will be key to a whole heck of a lot of this season's success, no doubt about it. Problem is, teams would be able to absolutely ignore the RBs in that scenario and just key on the passing game/stopping Kyler running. That would be tough to deal with.

I'm hoping to be 1,000 percent wrong on Conner so we don't have to find out!

They would 'absolutely ignore' our running game at their peril. IMO.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It should go without saying that Conner's absence in your scenario is not good, and we would all face those four weeks with some trepidation.

Trepidation, however, does not automatically mean that Chase and Eno can't handle the demands, and our IMPROVED offensive line should be the key to our running game before, during, and after Conner's absence.

I’m beginning to think the board is overrating our oline now. Humphrey is good (but to stouts point I don’t recall him ever being considered a road grader). Pugh is solid. Hudson is clearly very good, but he’s considered a better pass blocker than run blocker (which doesn’t take away from the fact he’s a big upgrade). We will likely be starting someone at right guard who couldn’t beat out last years starter who everyone says is the weak point in the attack. And beachum is an adequate right tackle. All in all four of five of the guys were cardinals last year. We didn’t overhaul the oline. Hudson is a big upgrade. And center can certainly raise the level of guards. But he’s still only a single addition to the line, and as I pointed out before, not considered a road grader. And last year rushers not named kyler ran for 4.09 yards per carry. I can’t seem to find average yards per carry for rbs, but that seems subpar. We should have some improvement but how much can we expect from a single upgrade?

 

[BigDavis75]

I love chase as a player and think he is fully capable of being an RB1. His comment on the touch split is very astute and he’s a fantastic receiver, Kliff needs to put him in spots to catch passes and play to his strengths

 

[Stout]

I love chase as a player and think he is fully capable of being an RB1. His comment on the touch split is very astute and he’s a fantastic receiver, Kliff needs to put him in spots to catch passes and play to his strengths

I disagree, though I love your positivity. He pretty much ruled himself out of the realm of a RB1. That doesn't mean he can't be a nice RB with lots of catches out of the backfield.

They would 'absolutely ignore' our running game at their peril. IMO.

Ah, the "ignored what I said" response. I didn't say ignore our running game; I said ignore our running backs. If Conner is down, the defense would key on stopping KM and the pass. KM is part of the running game, and thus the defense would not be ignoring it. The defense would (rightly) be ignoring the running backs because there wouldn't be a real threat there.

 

[Krangodnzr]

There you have it. Don't worry much about RB and just build your O-line. Pretty much any Cards RB in our checkered history will do as long as we have a good O-line. Which we know is patented crap. Plenty of the scrubs we've had would fall down at a light breeze. You need more than just a body at the position.



A (singular) key to a good running game is an effective O-line. ANOTHER key is an effective RB corps. Not a stellar one or a stable of stud RBs, but an effective one. So, adjust your premise and I'll agree.



Sure, the OL is key. So are the RBs. I'm glad you FINALLY can admit you need at least average RBs instead of just anybody will do hot garbage RBs. This is progress!

I can see that they're basically average players, sure. That brings up a plethora of problems in your gaping blind spot, though. Conner is average, yet offset that with injury issues that keep him off the field and big-moment choke jobs. Not a good combo for an average player. Combine that with Chase being a (self-admitted) low-touches guy who doesn't thrive as the lone starting player, and it's not a great corps to rely upon. Add to that that it's not like we have a guaranteed road-grating offensive line--still some big question marks there--and there's still tons of work to be done.

Now Krang, Quebec, answer me a simple question please. No misdirects, no snark, no "But offensive line!" shenanigans, just a simple reply to a simple scenario. Say Conner gets a high-ankle sprain and is out for four weeks. How confident are you in our RBs during his absence?

That is a wholly believable scenario and isn't trying to pin yinz down to any kind of a yes-no response. How comfortable would you be in our RBs and why?

Most teams will have degraded running games if their starter is out.

I just find it absolutely mystifying that you, Solar, and a tiny fraction of the fans on this board think this is a huge deal. A number of teams have won SUPER BOWLS recently with RB groups on par with the 2021 Cardinals or worse.

The NFL is a passing league. It's nice to have a great RB. It's also nice to have a threat at TE too. But neither are necessary for success. They are complimentary pieces.

FYI Football Outsiders lists James Conner as one of their best bargains in Free Agency. And AJ Green as one of their worst.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I’m beginning to think the board is overrating our oline now. Humphrey is good (but to stouts point I don’t recall him ever being considered a road grader). Pugh is solid. Hudson is clearly very good, but he’s considered a better pass blocker than run blocker (which doesn’t take away from the fact he’s a big upgrade). We will likely be starting someone at right guard who couldn’t beat out last years starter who everyone says is the weak point in the attack. And beachum is an adequate right tackle. All in all four of five of the guys were cardinals last year. We didn’t overhaul the oline. Hudson is a big upgrade. And center can certainly raise the level of guards. But he’s still only a single addition to the line, and as I pointed out before, not considered a road grader. And last year rushers not named kyler ran for 4.09 yards per carry. I can’t seem to find average yards per carry for rbs, but that seems subpar. We should have some improvement but how much can we expect from a single upgrade?

I haven't looked at 2020s rushing splits, but in 2019, the Cardinals averaged more than a yard better running to the left than the middle or right.

Humphries used to be known as a much better run blocker than pass blocker, but he has become much more balanced over the past two seasons.

The running game will also be helped alot if Murray can make teams pay for playing shallow zones. Hudson should help because he can negate some of the interior pressure that Murray faced often last year.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I haven't looked at 2020s rushing splits, but in 2019, the Cardinals averaged more than a yard better running to the left than the middle or right.

Humphries used to be known as a much better run blocker than pass blocker, but he has become much more balanced over the past two seasons.

The running game will also be helped alot if Murray can make teams pay for playing shallow zones. Hudson should help because he can negate some of the interior pressure that Murray faced often last year.

I agree with all this, and it doesn’t change anything I typed.

 

[LittleDavis]

I believe this entire offense is upgraded. Of course everything depends on health.
Hudson >Cole...This makes a huge difference
Green > Fitz
Kirk in the slot
Conner < Drake...not by much
Moore < Isabella/Johnson...this will help Edmonds a lot
Line 2021 > Line 2020...Cole was the weakest spot and the most pivotal. Hudson is a major upgrade for the line. RG is the only ?....with a lot of competition.

Trade next year four and Kirk for Jones and a 2022 6
-Larry comes back to play slot

 

[football karma]

Humphrey is good (but to stouts point I don’t recall him ever being considered a road grader).

fwiw

PFF graded Humphries as the #3 run blocking tackle in the NFL last year

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

fwiw

PFF graded Humphries as the #3 run blocking tackle in the NFL last year

Hmm that’s interesting. What about the prior years?

 

[QuebecCard]

Hmm that’s interesting. What about the prior years?

Must have been pretty good in 2019. We averaged 5 yds per carry and ran largely to the left.

 

[slanidrac16]

We need to add another veteran running back. If anyone here feels we are set for the season I have to say with all due respect you are delusional.

It isn’t all about just running the ball. Do you really want to depend on Ward and Eno? Here are their stats from last year added together:
1 rush, 7 yards, 0 rec., 1 td. Add that to this:
Can they catch?
Can they block?
Can they read and pick up a blitz?

I guess I can live with Edmonds and Connor as long as we can add a veteran. Duke Johnson would be my choice because I think he is similar to Edmonds.

 

[Stout]

We need to add another veteran running back. If anyone here feels we are set for the season I have to say with all due respect you are delusional.

It isn’t all about just running the ball. Do you really want to depend on Ward and Eno? Here are their stats from last year added together:
1 rush, 7 yards, 0 rec., 1 td. Add that to this:
Can they catch?
Can they block?
Can they read and pick up a blitz?

I guess I can live with Edmonds and Connor as long as we can add a veteran. Duke Johnson would be my choice because I think he is similar to Edmonds.

Brace yourself to be attacked for this stance, @slanidrac16

 

[DVontel]

We need to add another veteran running back. If anyone here feels we are set for the season I have to say with all due respect you are delusional.

It isn’t all about just running the ball. Do you really want to depend on Ward and Eno? Here are their stats from last year added together:
1 rush, 7 yards, 0 rec., 1 td. Add that to this:
Can they catch?
Can they block?
Can they read and pick up a blitz?

I guess I can live with Edmonds and Connor as long as we can add a veteran. Duke Johnson would be my choice because I think he is similar to Edmonds.

I’m down with adding a vet RB.

 

[Krangodnzr]

We need to add another veteran running back. If anyone here feels we are set for the season I have to say with all due respect you are delusional.

It isn’t all about just running the ball. Do you really want to depend on Ward and Eno? Here are their stats from last year added together:
1 rush, 7 yards, 0 rec., 1 td. Add that to this:
Can they catch?
Can they block?
Can they read and pick up a blitz?

I guess I can live with Edmonds and Connor as long as we can add a veteran. Duke Johnson would be my choice because I think he is similar to Edmonds.

Brace yourself to be attacked for this stance, @slanidrac16

I’m down with adding a vet RB.

I'd be down with a cheap ok veteran RB....but I'd rather add a CB first.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Well, I got half an answer, at least, which is more than I expected I mean, of course we'd face those weeks with trepidation, and of course it would be significant trepidation. No one would be confident Eno and Chase could handle everything. An improved OL will be key to a whole heck of a lot of this season's success, no doubt about it. Problem is, teams would be able to absolutely ignore the RBs in that scenario and just key on the passing game/stopping Kyler running. That would be tough to deal with.

I'm hoping to be 1,000 percent wrong on Conner so we don't have to find out!

I think you're view of Conner is partly not looking at how BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD the Steelers line has become. Advanced stats point to that strongly. The Steelers have easily a bottom 3 run blocking line now and Conner's individual stats aren't bad considering that.

PFF had Conner rated around a 70, which means he's a decent player. Drake had a lower rating, like a 63.

 

[Stout]

I think you're view of Conner is partly not looking at how BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD the Steelers line has become. Advanced stats point to that strongly. The Steelers have easily a bottom 3 run blocking line now and Conner's individual stats aren't bad considering that.

PFF had Conner rated around a 70, which means he's a decent player. Drake had a lower rating, like a 63.

I live in the Pittsburgh area and (when I'm not out due to surgery) listen to tons of local sports radio. I understand very much about the Steelers line, or really their lack thereof. I don't think their weak re-structuring of it this offseason will bear much fruit, either. But I digress. Conner, besides the injury issues, has big-moment-itis. Fumbles at really inopportune times, lack of hitting the holes at the critical moment, etc. I can't name all of them, as I'm not a Steelers fan, but I hear this from the fans and pundits a lot.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I live in the Pittsburgh area and (when I'm not out due to surgery) listen to tons of local sports radio. I understand very much about the Steelers line, or really their lack thereof. I don't think their weak re-structuring of it this offseason will bear much fruit, either. But I digress. Conner, besides the injury issues, has big-moment-itis. Fumbles at really inopportune times, lack of hitting the holes at the critical moment, etc. I can't name all of them, as I'm not a Steelers fan, but I hear this from the fans and pundits a lot.

I remember all the criticism Garrison Hearst and Thomas Jones got from Cardinals fans too! Fans will blame backs for the teams lack of running game success when the line isn't blocking well.

Conner is a decent NFL back. I know you won't agree to this, but the numbers bear that out. I think he'll at least match Drake's numbers if not better them. According to profootballreference.com, James Conner was -15 yards before contact for the season. That means on average he was taking contact behind or at the line of scrimmage on most plays. Do you know what Drake's total was? 549. That means Drake actually had holes to run through often, while Conner did not. Even with this advantage, Drake averaged less yards per carry than Conner.

 

[BigRedRage]

Hungry is good

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