Choose The Suns Next Head Coach?

[Chaplin]

The first forum I was on was azcentral which was not moderated. One psychopath made it unusable. Many of us left that when phxsuns.net started. I found this forum then. Was it 2002?

As far as Barkley’s comments, they mesh with other things written. What we have is the Jerry Jones of basketball owners. I am amazed McD is able to function. Sorry Cheese, it makes me want to keep McD more now. The alternative would be Sarver as the GM. We don’t know about how all the inner workings go, but now I am not sure I want to know.

Alarmist much, JC? If Sarver wanted to be GM, he would have done so LONG ago. I think he's perfectly fine operating in the shadows to badly influence the team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The first forum I was on was azcentral which was not moderated. One psychopath made it unusable. Many of us left that when phxsuns.net started. I found this forum then. Was it 2002?

Weren't you on the AOL (Suns) message boards prior to azcentral being created? Or do you not count that as a sports forum?

And I think you're selling azcentral short, I think there were at least 2 psychos there.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Weren't you on the AOL (Suns) message boards prior to azcentral being created? Or do you not count that as a sports forum?

And I think you're selling azcentral short, I think there were at least 2 psychos there.

Oh yeah. I was there too. I remember you were there too.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Oh yeah. I was there too. I remember you were there too.

And errntknight. Also, Minercon was here for awhile when this board first came into being. I'm sure there were a few others that we've lost along the way. For me, I count the Alt.sports newsgroups as my first sports forum (circa 1990) but I was more active on mid-90's AOL Suns than any other time or place.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Alarmist much, JC? If Sarver wanted to be GM, he would have done so LONG ago. I think he's perfectly fine operating in the shadows to badly influence the team.

Not trying to be. Just looking at the things being said. Maybe the Jerry jones comp is a bit over the top. It does take a rare sort of GM to deal with a high maintenance owner on a day to day basis. Maybe we don’t give McD enough credit for what he has to deal with. It can be very difficult to deal with an boss who doesn’t want to do all of your job but won’t let you do it either. We have all seen that in the work place and that is what Barkley is describing. Supposedly James Jones is trying to correct the situation. We will see.

Most strong GM candidates would see that situation and say no thanks. So you end up hiring a yes man and that makes Sarver the virtual GM. Who knows, maybe that is what he is already. I don’t know.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The first forum I was on was azcentral which was not moderated. One psychopath made it unusable. Many of us left that when phxsuns.net started. I found this forum then. Was it 2002?

As far as Barkley’s comments, they mesh with other things written. What we have is the Jerry Jones of basketball owners. I am amazed McD is able to function. Sorry Cheese, it makes me want to keep McD more now. The alternative would be Sarver as the GM. We don’t know about how all the inner workings go, but now I am not sure I want to know.

Cubby was that poster, right?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Cubby was that poster, right?

Cubby was "that poster" on several boards.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cubby was "that poster" on several boards.

that dude was a nightmare.

 

[AzStevenCal]

that dude was a nightmare.

Yeah he was. Our Andrew was annoying, Cubby was a disruptive force.

 

[Mainstreet]

Bordow is the very last person to break Suns news. As a matter of fact, he doesn’t break news, he merely “confirms” what guys like Woj, Stein, Gambo etc report hours before.

If you’re waiting for Bordow, you’ll be waiting a long time.

Although Bordow will give more detailed information about the Suns than anywhere else.

I go to Gambadoro for breaking news and Bordow for all the details.

 

[BC867]

Well BC we got a new owner. Remember back in the days when you wanted to get rid the Colangelo’s? Doesn’t look so bad now, does it?

And Jerry picked Robert Sarver. He's not off the hook for not having a Championship philosophy until he had a second chance with the Diamondbacks.

 

[BC867]

Weren't you on the AOL (Suns) message boards prior to azcentral being created? Or do you not count that as a sports forum?

And I think you're selling azcentral short, I think there were at least 2 psychos there.

Remember when Curt Schilling used to post on the D-backs board? He never responded to what we posted (or questioned), but gave us some good insight.

 

[Mainstreet]

And Jerry picked Robert Sarver. He's not off the hook for not having a Championship philosophy until he had a second chance with the Diamondbacks.

I admire Colangelo but I still feel abandoned when he sold the Suns.

To make matters worse he is now with the 76ers.

This can all be justified but it still doesn't feel right.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I admire Colangelo but I still feel abandoned when he sold the Suns.

To make matters worse he is now with the 76ers.

This can all be justified but it still doesn't feel right.

Yeah. I do not know how much you can effectively vet a new owner. Maybe he should have just sold it to Bryan or something. JC had cancer at the time and was trying to put his house in order because he did not know if he would survive.

I just wish he had gotten us a better owner. He probably wishes the same thing now.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Yes. Cubby. hundeds of pages of posts that just said "0-31." It made the site completely unusable. Message board terrorism is what it was.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah. I do not know how much you can effectively vet a new owner. Maybe he should have just sold it to Bryan or something. JC had cancer at the time and was trying to put his house in order because he did not know if he would survive.

I just wish he had gotten us a better owner. He probably wishes the same thing now.

I'm sure he regrets the way it turned out as well.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Remember when Curt Schilling used to post on the D-backs board? He never responded to what we posted (or questioned), but gave us some good insight.

Sure but I can't remember whether that was AOL, azprosports or the rivals site? He came to our board shortly after he was traded to the Dbacks because a couple of Philly fans (females IIRC) joined our site and invited him. He never gave us anything real juicy but it was nice to have him there.

 

[BC867]

Sure but I can't remember whether that was AOL, azprosports or the rivals site? He came to our board shortly after he was traded to the Dbacks because a couple of Philly fans (females IIRC) joined our site and invited him. He never gave us anything real juicy but it was nice to have him there.

It was either azprosports or rivals. But I can't remember which came first and which followed before ASFN.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And Jerry picked Robert Sarver. He's not off the hook for not having a Championship philosophy until he had a second chance with the Diamondbacks.

He literally subverted NBA rules to try and get a title to the point that the NBA HAD to change the rules to stop him.

Tell me this... If he didn’t care about a championship, why did he go out in back to back years and get THE best player in FA, even doing it underhandedly? If he just wanted a fun team, why would he even bother getting AC Green (after the Finals when we were trying to upgrade our D) and Danny Manning (after losing in 7 to the Rockets) who was a legit star. Why do that AND give them wink wink under the table deals if he wasn’t doing everything he could to win a title?

 

[AzStevenCal]

It was either azprosports or rivals. But I can't remember which came first and which followed before ASFN.

Yeah, my memory is fuzzy too. I think I was on both at the same time and then one of them (Rivals, I believe) closed down and everyone moved to the other before Jim eventually opened this one. I know I went to one of them because the Suns board on AOL was dying and I'd gone to the other because Cards Corner was being shut down. IIRC Azprosports was like this place, it had all the other local sports but it was first and foremost a Cards football forum.

 

[JCSunsfan]

He literally subverted NBA rules to try and get a title to the point that the NBA HAD to change the rules to stop him.

Tell me this... If he didn’t care about a championship, why did he go out in back to back years and get THE best player in FA, even doing it underhandedly? If he just wanted a fun team, why would he even bother getting AC Green (after the Finals when we were trying to upgrade our D) and Danny Manning (after losing in 7 to the Rockets) who was a legit star. Why do that AND give them wink wink under the table deals if he wasn’t doing everything he could to win a title?

I have had these conversations 100 times with him. There is no point. Made up mind.

 

[BC867]

He literally subverted NBA rules to try and get a title to the point that the NBA HAD to change the rules to stop him.

Tell me this... If he didn’t care about a championship, why did he go out in back to back years and get THE best player in FA, even doing it underhandedly? If he just wanted a fun team, why would he even bother getting AC Green (after the Finals when we were trying to upgrade our D) and Danny Manning (after losing in 7 to the Rockets) who was a legit star. Why do that AND give them wink wink under the table deals if he wasn’t doing everything he could to win a title?

My opinion is that once Jerry allowed John MacLeod to define the Suns as a finesse team, made up (with few exceptions) of obedient players, any subsequent attempts were sporadic moves rather than a new philosophy and, ultimately, a balanced team.

To me, the biggest example was when he brought Maurice Lucas and Dennis Johnson (two tough Champions) on board, then jettisoned them before they could round out the rest of the team in their (aggressive) image, because MacLeod couldn't handle that type of player -- the ones who win Championships. One of my biggest gripes with McCloud was that when your allotted time on the floor was up, you came out. Even if you were the hottest player at that moment. Rigid behavior!

I, as others of you, lived the Suns heritage at the Madhouse on McDowell and watched my hopes rise and fall. Even under Cotton (the most talented Head Coach in Suns history), it seemed like too little, too late. It is ironic that Red Auerbach had the "whitest" team in the NBA and won championships, because he wasn't afraid of tough players. Jerry had the second "whitest" team and won none. Because they were Guard and Wing oriented -- the Van Arsdale's, Westphal and Buse, Joel Kramer.

Even the black players -- Alvin Scott, Walter Davis, Ronnie Lee and the rest. Enforcers just didn't fit Jerry's management style. The Chuckster was the most obvious exception, but exceptions don't build to championship calibre.

If you disagree, so be it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

One of my biggest gripes with McCloud was that when your allotted time on the floor was up, you came out. Even if you were the hottest player at that moment.

I've knocked heads with you before on Colangelo whether on the Suns board or the DBacks so I'm going to stay out of this one. However, I'm in full agreement on the comment about John Macleod. It was so frustrating to watch Westy or Sweet D get hot only to see John send them to the bench because their time was up.

 

[Cheesebeef]

My opinion is that once Jerry allowed John MacLeod to define the Suns as a finesse team, made up (with few exceptions) of obedient players, any subsequent attempts were sporadic moves rather than a new philosophy and, ultimately, a balanced team.

To me, the biggest example was when he brought Maurice Lucas and Dennis Johnson (two tough Champions) on board, then jettisoned them before they could round out the rest of the team in their (aggressive) image, because MacLeod couldn't handle that type of player -- the ones who win Championships. One of my biggest gripes with McCloud was that when your allotted time on the floor was up, you came out. Even if you were the hottest player at that moment. Rigid behavior!

I, as others of you, lived the Suns heritage at the Madhouse on McDowell and watched my hopes rise and fall. Even under Cotton (the most talented Head Coach in Suns history), it seemed like too little, too late. It is ironic that Red Auerbach had the "whitest" team in the NBA and won championships, because he wasn't afraid of tough players. Jerry had the second "whitest" team and won none. Because they were Guard and Wing oriented -- the Van Arsdale's, Westphal and Buse, Joel Kramer.

Even the black players -- Alvin Scott, Walter Davis, Ronnie Lee and the rest. Enforcers just didn't fit Jerry's management style. The Chuckster was the most obvious exception, but exceptions don't build to championship calibre.

If you disagree, so be it.

You didn’t answer my questions.

 

[BC867]

You didn’t answer my questions.

In my opinion, the answer to every example you brought up lies in the results.

For 50 years, with one legitimate Finals appearance and one Cinderella appearance early on, the Suns have never built a balanced roster to accomplish what it takes to be a true playoff contender. With the exception of Barkley for a few years, our strength has always been in the lighter positions with the backcourt and wings. And our weakness has been leaders who bring very little experience to the job, if any. Or a step-up in philosophy.

Of course you can cite a few examples of good moves over a half century. What does that prove? The Suns never achieved the next step to building a strong team.

Not when they were new to the NBA and the only major team in town. And not since Phoenix (the largest State capitol city in the country) and the Valley of the Sun have moved high on the list as both city and metropolitan areas.

They have been run by one man, then the successor he chose. The first worked in the Marketing department of the old Chicago Bulls and stepped directly into the General Manager, then Managing General Partner, role. The other owns one bank in Tucson, and became Managing General Partner and fashioned himself as de facto General Manager, micro managing the GM and variety of Head Coaches.

Those are not the credentials for building strong playoff teams. Your example of a few good moves in a half century have not changed that. Look at the results. Right down to our current General Manager learning on the job and the turnover of inexpensive Head Coaches, temporary and permanent. You get what you pay for. At the beginning 50 years ago, Jerry had no choice. But that has remained the Suns mantra.

It should be no surprise that Jerry chose a small minded, egotistical Tucson banker to carry on his "legacy". He even tried to slide his inexperienced and immature son into the General Manager position.

What has it all led to? Our worst season since the beginning. The worst roster we've ever had. Hoping that we'll be lucky in this draft and finally begin the slow path up.

I honestly don't see how any Suns fan can be happy with that history. And, if so, fine. But, I can't! And yes, as Steve said, my point of view has remained consistent in that regard. Especially as we watch it get worse and worse. Not just losers, but a mismanaged 2017-18 laughingstock.