Chriss???

BC867

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No rush to get rid of either player because their values are zero. We have to gamble with them more because dealing them gets us nadda.
Unless, of course, you are trying to win games vs. NBA competition once the season starts. Every minute they remain on the team lessens the urgency to either develop or add another player at the PF position.

Pokerface, I just can't see the rationale of either keeping bad players or keeping cheap players. Especially if they remain in the rotation. We're not bankers. We, the fans, shouldn't be satisfied with playing time based on lack of value.
 

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No rush to get rid of either player because their values are zero. We have to gamble with them more because dealing them gets us nadda.

If one of them can give us some solid minutes at the backup 5 great. If not I’m not going to lose any sleep over them being disappointments.

We should be worried about JJ who still has no idea how to shoot a basketball. Good thing we didn’t trade TJ.
 

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Unless, of course, you are trying to win games vs. NBA competition once the season starts. Every minute they remain on the team lessens the urgency to either develop or add another player at the PF position.

Pokerface, I just can't see the rationale of either keeping bad players or keeping cheap players. Especially if they remain in the rotation. We're not bankers. We, the fans, shouldn't be satisfied with playing time based on lack of value.

What's the alternative? Free agency has started already and the Suns are broke so what options are there to improve the team and fill holes?
 

BC867

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What's the alternative? Free agency has started already and the Suns are broke so what options are there to improve the team and fill holes?
Yes, I get you. But I wish the Suns had done a better job of the whole mess. Two players drafted at the same time for the same position is asking for trouble. Competing with each in practice is one thing. Competing with each other for one position all season long, well, we've seen the failure that indecision has caused.

And our only solution is a very light PF in Ariza. I hope it doesn't bite us.
 

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Yes, I get you. But I wish the Suns had done a better job of the whole mess. Two players drafted at the same time for the same position is asking for trouble. Competing with each in practice is one thing. Competing with each other for one position all season long, well, we've seen the failure that indecision has caused.

And our only solution is a very light PF in Ariza. I hope it doesn't bite us.
How did that decision cause failure? Neither player was ready for big playing time (if any) in their first year or two in the league. I think a bigger problem was simply just gifting them minutes as opposed to having someone for them to overtake in the lineup.
 

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How did that decision cause failure? Neither player was ready for big playing time (if any) in their first year or two in the league. I think a bigger problem was simply just gifting them minutes as opposed to having someone for them to overtake in the lineup.

I agree with almost all of this entirely. I think Chriss' attitude can be linked back to Watson gifting him the starting spot. He did not earn it, that's for sure. You could fault McD for bringing in Dudley to be our stretch 4 starter but Watson went along with that, from all accounts, so he should have raised more of an objection if he felt it wouldn't work. Instead Chriss got the starting job like 5 games into the season and once Watson was gone, Chriss regressed. You can trace his regression to the Summer League but after being a starter all year I don't blame him entirely for feeling like he didn't need to be part of SL.
 

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How did that decision cause failure? Neither player was ready for big playing time (if any) in their first year or two in the league. I think a bigger problem was simply just gifting them minutes as opposed to having someone for them to overtake in the lineup.
I was referring to lack of commitment. Draft a guy who you hope will be the PF of the future and give him a chance. Versus drafting two for the same role, then going back and forth all season long. I consider it weak management. And I blame them for the failure of both players. Instilling confidence is part of developing a young player.

They failed also with Alex Len. He's a backup. He's a starter. He's a backup. He's a starter.

And, of course, going back to the 3 lead Point Guard fiasco.

There have been too many incidents of internal competition that have produced disappointment. Bottom line? They all failed. That is not opinion. That's the fact, Jack. :)

That defines the Sarver era. Hopefully, they have all learned from it.
 
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I was referring to lack of commitment. Draft a guy who you hope will be the PF of the future and give him a chance. Versus drafting two for the same role, then going back and forth all season long. I consider it weak management. And I blame them for the failure of both players. Instilling confidence is part of developing a young player.

They failed also with Alex Len. He's a backup. He's a starter. He's a backup. He's a starter.

And, of course, going back to the 3 lead Point Guard fiasco.

There have been too many incidents of internal competition that have produced disappointment. Bottom line? They all failed. That is not opinion. That's the fact, Jack. :)

That defines the Sarver era. Hopefully, they have all learned from it.

Wasn't Babby part of all the point guard past? I think he really was the definition of the futility in the 10's. Babby was obsessed with brothers, you had Morri, Seth Curry, Goran and Zoran the Griffin twin. That dude was straight up a dotard that sounded like a muppet.
 

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I was referring to lack of commitment. Draft a guy who you hope will be the PF of the future and give him a chance. Versus drafting two for the same role, then going back and forth all season long. I consider it weak management. And I blame them for the failure of both players. Instilling confidence is part of developing a young player.

They failed also with Alex Len. He's a backup. He's a starter. He's a backup. He's a starter.

And, of course, going back to the 3 lead Point Guard fiasco.

There have been too many incidents of internal competition that have produced disappointment. Bottom line? They all failed. That is not opinion. That's the fact, Jack. :)

That defines the Sarver era. Hopefully, they have all learned from it.
It has worked out that way with Bender and Chriss, but I don't think that was the intention when they were drafted. I believe the intention was that they would both be playing major roles along side each other. The problem is that neither of the really progressed at all and I don't think that has anything to do with playing time. It is either that we misjudged their attitude towards improvement or we just had poor developmental coaches around them. Hopefully with the new coaching staff at least one of these guys comes around. I'm certainly not ready to just throw them both out at this point.
 

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Unless, of course, you are trying to win games vs. NBA competition once the season starts. Every minute they remain on the team lessens the urgency to either develop or add another player at the PF position.

Pokerface, I just can't see the rationale of either keeping bad players or keeping cheap players. Especially if they remain in the rotation. We're not bankers. We, the fans, shouldn't be satisfied with playing time based on lack of value.
I'd like to see both with real coaching before I bury them. I really like what I've seen and heard from Igor, he has a rep as a good developer of players.

There is simply no point in dumping them right now. And Chriss was actually playing well at the end of last year. Even as a Bender defender (something that gets harder each game) I think Chriss is not near the disaster people make him out to be. IMO if he played the exact same but didn't have his pouty face (and bricked less dunks) then many here would still be bullish on him.
 
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I am not bailing on my hope form Bender until he is the 4th or 5th youngest player on the team.
 

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There is simply no point in dumping them right now. And Chriss was actually playing well at the end of last year. Even as a Bender defender (something that gets harder each game) I think Chriss is not near the disaster people make him out to be. IMO if he played the exact same but didn't have his pouty face (and bricked less dunks) then many here would still be bullish on him.

Maybe if he played the exact same AND did it for most of the season instead of two weak starts followed by two decent finishes.
 

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I am not bailing on my hope form Bender until he is the 4th or 5th youngest player on the team.
I've been with you on the Bender wagon... but holy smokes did he look terrible today. Defense he was fine, on the other end it looked like he'd never played basketball before. The eye test is regressing to the stat level.
 

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I've been with you on the Bender wagon... but holy smokes did he look terrible today. Defense he was fine, on the other end it looked like he'd never played basketball before. The eye test is regressing to the stat level.
I almost feel like his offense is reliant on things starting well. He started the game by getting his shot swatted and missing like three open threes. Once that happened he seemingly became an automatic turnover. Seems like when he plays a good offensive game things were going well from the start.
 

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Chriss regressed when he spent a summer getting fat. He finished the 16-17 season fine. Tough lesson to learn. Not sure why it happened.
 

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It was more like 2 months not 2 weeks

And that is still more than the 5 or 6 decent career games Bender had!

You misunderstood. But yes, both his good stretch and his bad stretch each year ran for longer than a few weeks.
 

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I've been with you on the Bender wagon... but holy smokes did he look terrible today. Defense he was fine, on the other end it looked like he'd never played basketball before. The eye test is regressing to the stat level.

I've been trying to support Bender too but on starting his third season he looks like puke in preseason?


Igor has his work cut out for him!
 

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Chriss has been the starter for two years now and you want him in Summer league? He might be the starter this year and Bender might find minutes hard to find.
 

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I've been trying to support Bender too but on starting his third season he looks like puke in preseason?


Igor has his work cut out for him!

This isn't preseason though it's Summer League. There is a pretty big difference. Mainly that preseason takes place after training camp. If Bender looks that bad after training camp? Then I could see the concern.

The Bender bashing is going overboard already. Every mistake Ayton makes is pushed aside with the excuse being that Summer League is a terrible place for bigs to show their stuff but with Bender every negative is amplified. There's no consistency.
 

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This isn't preseason though it's Summer League. There is a pretty big difference. Mainly that preseason takes place after training camp. If Bender looks that bad after training camp? Then I could see the concern.

The Bender bashing is going overboard already. Every mistake Ayton makes is pushed aside with the excuse being that Summer League is a terrible place for bigs to show their stuff but with Bender every negative is amplified. There's no consistency.

C'mon though...Bender is stinking bad.
 

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C'mon though...Bender is stinking bad.

He's looked bad, I'm not denying that. The fact that he looks the same as he did last season right now in SL isn't a good sign, at all. I still think it's too early to give up on him entirely. He's still the 30th youngest player in the entire league. That's odd considering he's going to be entering his 3rd year. If Alex Len got 5 years to show something though I think Bender deserves at least 3.

There is a double standard happening with how some are commenting on the SL games. A number of people have pointed out how guard play is huge in the SL and it's not a good indicator of what bigs are capable of doing. That's only being mentioned regarding Ayton though and ignoring that same line of thinking when discussing Bender. There should be some consistency to how players are judged. I'm not saying you did that, I should have made that point in a separate post but I was already replying to you about Summer League and Pre-Season.
 

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Bender is on his third season Ayton has played two summer league games.
 

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They have no trade value and they are not yet blocking a roster spot. I don’t want to cut either now, but I’m also prepared for the scenario where each simply plays himself off the roster. All it will take is another draft or an incoming player. It would be nice if this happened with only one of them, though.
 
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